Classic/Capri/Corsair

[seth]

So, we decided that BMC/BL got it all wrong and were making too many different cars and Ford and Vauxhall didn't

 

But then the Ogle thread has got me wondering.... Ford overlapped production of the Classic/Capri range with the Cortina and then the Corsair came along to play as well. The Consul Capri is quite a sporty looking number but the Classic would surely attract the same people as the Cortina which would have been in development at the same time. The Cortina and Corsair strike me as similar sized cars (A step up from an Anglia and then an Escort) that would compete with each other and were certainly in production together.

 

So were Ford playing the same game and were just lucky to ride it through? Discuss.

[wuvvum]

Wasn't the Classic brought in as a stop gap because the Cortina wasn't ready yet?

 

I'm pretty sure the Corsair was a notch above the Cortina - it's physically a fair bit bigger than a Mk1 Tina and the engines are bigger (smallest engine in the Corsair was the 1500, biggest was the 2-litre V4). The Mk2 Cortina is a lot closer in size though - maybe the Corsair was kept in production as a "compact executive" car, kinda like the Xedos 6 which was produced alongside the 626?

[barrett]

I think the important thing to remember here is the gestation period between a new model being given the green light and actually being launched to the public. The reason the Classic/ Capri failed was mainly due to the styling, which was riding the wave of Americanised British cars of the early 50s - by the time they actually came out they looked dated and fussy. the Classic was supposed to be one rung above the Cortina, so the range went anglia-cortina-classic-zephyr-zodiac. What actually happened was the cars bombed so badly Ford ended production much sooner than anticipated which left a mid-range void, that was what the Corsair was for, to fill the gap between Cortina and Zephyr.

By the time the MK3 Cortina came out I think they had the range pretty much down, rather than have one model for each market, each model (escort-cortina-zephyr/granada) could be had with loads of different trim and engine options so owning an escort for instance didn't necessarily mean you had a 'bottom of the range' car. *

 

*not actual facts. I am not eccentricrichard, this is just my opinion

 

Interestingly, I just looked at a 1963 Ford range ad and the Capri was being sold as a 'personal car', a full year before the Mustang came along. I always thought that was coined by Ford US to sell that car

[chaseracer]

There was a fair amount of commonality between the Cortina and the Corsair - including the internal structure - which wasn't the case with the Classic. This would have helped with costs.

[autofive]

im no expert on early sixties fords, but the corsair appeared to be larger internally - maybe this was Fords plan

 

it was certainly out of favour as soon as the mk2 cortina came along

 

the consul capri always confused me, in not sure what market it was aimed at, was it a euro thing, or a design pushed through by parent company ford usa?

[Richard]

Ford were planning to have a range of medium-sized "Consul" cars, basically giving them a family middle name.

 

I thought the Corsair had almost the same centre section as the Cortina like the Maxi/1800 or SAAB 99/900. I'll have to check my book and regurgitate some facts.

 

Edit- no mention of that in my book, I must have imagined it.

[Albert Ross]

I know of a chap in Lincoln had a Crayford Corsair a while back..... stuffed in a council garage.... covered in crap. Wonder if it's still there..... Might pay a visit.... with a bag of cash and a trailer.

[seth]

Hmmm. It does seem that they were almost in a Dolomite/Toledo terriotory for mixing and matching similar cars. Perhaps the swift exit of the Capri and Classic shows the sort of product management that BMC/BL lacked though.

[red5]

The Corsair was a stretched Cortina floorplan, with different external body panels. The mk2 Cortina was a rebodied mk1 (basically). Both of them lighter than the Classic/Capri (which wasn't hard from all accounts!).

 

Fairly common practice at one point - think mk1/2 Escrots - Sierra/Escort Cosworth and so on. Perhaps they were 'lucky' with their choices of when to mix and match, but I suspect it had more to do with decent management/design and so on. And a willingness to cull where necessary.

 

 

Imho.

 

 

Ps CUY410B where art thou?

[Negative Creep]

Happens all the time in today's market. Looks how many mini MPVs are being built, which offer nothing over the equivalent 5 door hatch or estate version. Then there's the latest trend of making a coupe version of a hatch or saloon such as the Passat and Passat CC. Then there's BMW with their X1, X3 and X5, Audi with the A6, A7 and A8 and Mercedes who will have to invent new letters of the alphabet soon. I don't see how marketing the Allegro and Marina (one rwd and one fwd) is any different from the Golf/A3/Leon/Octavia or the Japanese making about 10 million different types of dull saloons and hatches which aren't sold here

[M'coli]

I think the difference with Ford was that they built these cars by parts-bin raiding, whereas with BMC/BL it was car specific. For example, the Mini and 1800 were Longbridge-developed, but the 1100 was Cowley-developed (IIRC) and there were a huge number of bespoke (small) bits in each car which could have all been pulled from the same bin if done economically. Ford redesigned the Cortina steering wheel many times to save a farthing each or so, I'm sure that BMC wouldn't have done the same sort of thing.

 

Then, of course, there's the Cosworth factor - BMC might have had Downton tuning its rally cars, but Ford had its name on the winningest Grand Prix engine of all time.

[CreepingJesus]

Agreed with various of the above: the big difference was that Ford's design/management structure was much slimmer. While there was a bit of infighting between Dagenham and Cologne from time to time, and the odd unwanted interference from Detroit, they never lacked focus. It's a big part of Ford's corporate culture - deadwood doesn't hang around long.

Don't forget that Ford had similar union problems in its' UK/European facilities to BL et al - Dagenham came to standstill more than once.

They suffered build quality problems too, and some of their products didn't compare too well to Japanese and German motors. But they understood that keen pricing and good marketing work - think Escort, think Roger Clark and others. Think Granada, think Regan...and so on it goes. Fiestas rallycrossing on World of Sport on a Saturday afternoon; the list is extensive.

Nowadays, not only is platform sharing the way to go; predictive modelling in the production planning department ensures that just enough of the zillion niche models are built. Not too many, mind, so there aren't fields of unsold cars rotting away. Thus production schedules are optimised, and profitability remains healthy.

Throw in cooperation between group companies in different territories, and a truly global perspective, and it's not hard to see how Ford (and GM) could prevail the way they have.

[Rocket88]

It's an old story, but worth repeating..............Ford bought one of the first Minis, and costed every last nut and bolt, and decided that BL where loosing about £150 on very one they sold. At first , Mini sales were disasterous, and BL weren't that far away from canning it. Suddenly, peoaple like Peter Sellars / Twiggy etc starting buying them, and sales took off. Ford have always been very good at parts bin engineering, but the inter marque rivalries in BL often kiboshed any attempt to do the same.

[garethj]

Perhaps you could get away with a wide product range in the 60s as Ford and BMC were doing. But Ford killed the Corsair in 1971ish so they knew they didn't need it.

 

That kind of thing didn't happen at BMC, each new development costing millions that Ford didn't have to amortise. Or they could develop one car well, rather than three cars badly....

[seth]

It's an old story, but worth repeating..............Ford bought one of the first Minis, and costed every last nut and bolt, and decided that BL where loosing about £150 on very one they sold.

 

Considering it was under £500 I don't think BMC were that far out. Nearer to £15 wasn't it?

[AnthonyG]

It was £15 BMC were losing on the Mini, although apparently it depended on whether the factory was on overtime on not, and how many were built on each shift.

 

The Cortina designers were told to take a Classic bodyshell and produce a car with the same strength with 10 or 15% less weight. IIRC It was the first British car designed using stress analysis techniques developed in the aircraft industry, and Ford were probably the only UK car maker with access to a (mainfame) computer for engineering and design analysis. They either used their own or bought 'time' on a university one - I can't remember which.

 

I think the Corsair was designed to offer something a bit larger than the Cortina and also take over from the market space of the Consul Mk2 and Classic , as the Zephyr 4 was a fairly basic but large car - a bit of a minicab/taxi/MoD staff car special. The Classic was also stopped earlier than planned due to low sales so there was space in Dagenham for the Corsair.

 

The Corsair was more stylish and compact than the Zephyr 4, and around the same price. The Corsair used many Cortina Mk1 body panels, including the scuttle, a slightly stretched floor, door skins and frames, windscreen, rear screen and side window glass and (possibly) the door pillars and roof skin.

 

When the Cortina Mk3 came with a 2 litre there was really no 'market' niche or space for the Corsair to continue, as they knew that the 'Consul' would return with the Mk1 Granada and also be available with a 2 litre.

[Rocket88]

It's an old story, but worth repeating..............Ford bought one of the first Minis, and costed every last nut and bolt, and decided that BL where loosing about £150 on very one they sold.

 

Considering it was under £500 I don't think BMC were that far out. Nearer to £15 wasn't it?

 

Apologies, fat fingered typo......I must have been a BL accountant in a previous existence.

[Spottedlaurel]

Remember there was another 1960s Ford which they didn't quite get right:

 

1969 Ford Zodiac MkIV Aircraft Carrier by Spottedlaurel, on Flickr

[autofive]

Remember there was another 1960s Ford which they didn't quite get right:

 

1969 Ford Zodiac MkIV Aircraft Carrier by Spottedlaurel, on Flickr

 

 

why do you think Ford didnt get it right with the mk4 Zephyr / Zodiac?

 

they are a great car to drive, V6 version can handle the weight, not the prettiest car on this earth, but certainly not the ugliest

 

here is mine

 

[Pete-M]

I've always had a soft spot for the aircraft carrier Zodiac Executive. Even after I drove one. Crap, but in a brilliant way. I would love an estate one, with a Scorpio 24v lump.

 

As for Ford and it's 60's range, they soon sorted it out and as I said on t'other thread, Ford were the absolute masters of part sharing so it wouldn't have cost them much to have the 105E / Classic / Cortina / Corsair / Zephyr / Zodiac range on the go.

 

Corsair was a handy thing to test running gear out with. Those dreadful Essex V4s started off in the Corsair, then migrated to the Transit and Capri. The Corsair was the testing ground for the '2000E' gearbox, much loved by Escort freaks.

 

Variations of Ford bits from the 60's were still going until not that long ago. Kent engine,for example, no wonder they renamed it the Endura. A 105E Anglia propshaft will fit a Mk2 Escort RS, etc...

[mattblack]

Those dreadful Essex V4s started off in the Corsair, then migrated to the Transit

 

 

Other way round, wasn't it?

[AnthonyG]

Early Zephyr/Zodiacs had 'interesting' handling with the new IRS and the standard cross plys. The rear of the car wanting to swap places with the front on twisty corners etc.

 

This was commented on frequently by the motoring mags at launch time. AFAIK a simple mod by Ford and different tyres made the car much better to drive and more or less solved the problem. Certainly would been sorted by the time they made Autofive's one.

[warren t claim]

If I was going to kill a few prostitutes in the West Yorkshire area or maybe make a discreet getaway after killing the nanny with a length of lead pipe I'd choose a Corsair.

[AnthonyG]

Early Zephyr/Zodiacs had 'interesting' handling with the new IRS and the standard cross plys. The rear of the car wanting to swap places with the front on twisty corners etc.

 

This was commented on frequently by the motoring mags at launch time. AFAIK a simple mod by Ford and different tyres made the car much better to drive and more or less solved the problem. Certainly would been sorted by the time they made Autofive's one.

[155V6]

Wasn't there a 2-door Corsair that was only available to Fleet customers?

[AnthonyG]

Looks like I can't delete the above double post. Sorry all!

 

There was a 2 door Corsair and it was availble to reatil customers, they didn't offer it for very long though - think it died in about 66 or so. Dinky's first model of a Corsair was a 2 door.

 

There was an ultra pov spec version of the Anglia and Cortina offered to fleet customers, not sure about the Corsair though.

[autofive]

Early Zephyr/Zodiacs had 'interesting' handling with the new IRS and the standard cross plys. The rear of the car wanting to swap places with the front on twisty corners etc.

 

This was commented on frequently by the motoring mags at launch time. AFAIK a simple mod by Ford and different tyres made the car much better to drive and more or less solved the problem. Certainly would been sorted by the time they made Autofive's one.

 

my Zephyr is a 1967 registered car and includes the early front & rear suspension - exactly the set-up the motoring press were so horrified by on wet roads

 

I have read all the roadtests from 1966 when the cars were launched, including the foreign motoring press and a couple of year long 'living with' sort of tests from 1967.

most were complimentary, but no one liked driving them in the wet. Unfortunately a lot of journos test drove the v4 version

 

what really killed this car was poor steel quality, terrible metallic paint which fell off after 6 months and high petrol prices

 

 

have you actually driven one ?

[eddyramrod]

Looks like I can't delete the above double post. Sorry all!

 

There was a 2 door Corsair and it was availble to reatil customers, they didn't offer it for very long though - think it died in about 66 or so. Dinky's first model of a Corsair was a 2 door.

 

There was an ultra pov spec version of the Anglia and Cortina offered to fleet customers, not sure about the Corsair though.

 

My dad bought a 2 door Corsair 1500 brand new in 1964. GTE 324B was Goodwood Green with a pale green interior. He was out on the road all week, every week, so the endless trouble he had with the brakes caused him to trade it in after just a year for a dark blue (Ambassador Blue?) Mk3 Zephyr 4. DWM 95C had huge pale blue bench seats; at six years old, I loved it! I still have my first Dinky Corsair, now painted to match our old car. Dinky never made a 4 door, but Matchbox did, and it's one of those that represents my own old 2000E in my mini-fleet.

[vicsmith]

I've never understood why whenever the final incarnation of the Zephyr/Zodiac crops up, at some point it's looks will be called into question, and any positive comments usually come with some sort of justification which I would have thought was unnecessary.

 

Surely it`s just part of the same fold as all the other big, american influenced late `60s/early `70s cars, and if you like the Mk1 Granada, PC Cresta, Chrysler 180, Opel Rekord etc. then the Zephyr`s styling is beyond reproach? I think they`re fantastic looking, and not in any sort of bollocky, ironic way, just genuinely stylish, and I would be curious to see how many would agree.

[brammy777]

I dont think SL was calling it a bad car by any means.... They have quite weird proportions, that bonnet length really is massively long, which coupled with the short boot makes it quite the looker. Personally I like them, I cant comment on any level above what I think of the looks, but my college mate ended up buying one with his dad and it is very well kept, I am rather jealous to say the least. I have sat in it, mighty tempting as it was to ask for the keys I wouldnt trust myself in it at the moment. Remember, looks are subjective!

1967 FORD ZODIAC MKIV 3.0 V6 SALOON by bramm77, on Flickr