Modern cars are safe...

[Cavcraft]

ER, there is NO "us"... There is you. And Other people. Just because WE let you play on our street, does not suddenly create a bond. There is no friendship, your opinions belong to someone else. You are a troll. Stop it.

 

Oh. And 20 years might be a LOOOOOONG time ago for you, as you try to count all three of your pubic hairs, then realise you piss out of one of them, but to me, I was out driving cars to pubs, meeting girls and shagging them, and getting pissed, all for a fiver or so a night. One of them might have been your Mum. So fuck off with your distorted reality and silly timescales. You're a knobhead. Fuck off.

 

Well, frankly, to be so downright insulting reflects rather more badly on you than on me... and, in terms of car development timescales, twenty years absolutely IS a long time.

 

I think he went easy on you to be honest. You can sit there all night and day quoting something you read in Autocar but until you realise experience is better than some shit you read then you're just pointless. It's one thinking posting a load of bollocks on here, it's another to be so thick skinned you can't see that for every action there's a reaction. It would appear some people think you're a bellend. And I agree with them.

[CIH]

For sure the NSX was never financially a sucess, and IIRC has the worst depreciation of any car in history, but read any period tests and it was far more capable than the 348 or 911, was direct inspiration and bench mark for the McLaren F1 and also won GT2 class of the 95 LeMans. To the Gran Turismo generation it really was a pukka hero.

 

Also why is this subject generating so much bile on here ?

[Pete-M]

Good. It's simply Darwinism in effect. If anyone buys a Geely, they're likely to die. I really don't see a problem with this, although I'd have been a lot happier if Geely had simply bought all the old scrappage stuff that worked and taken that to China instead.

 

If you're cheap enough to buy NEW a shite Chinese / Korean / Jap / Diesel car, then you really shouldn't be allowed airbags. A huge great sharp spike should be hidden behind an 'AIRBAG' cover on the steering wheel, and when you crash it you die. Impaled on your own cheapskatery.

 

Dismissing Korean and Jap and diesel cars is pretty narrow minded... diesels have won at Le Mans for several years running... a diesel won the Paris-Dakar recently... the Japanese build some bloody good cars, even the cheap ones... and the Koreans are on the rise too.

 

I've driven Hyundais, Daewoos (I refuse to call them Chevrolets), and a few Kias. Last one I drove was a Ce'ed, and that was bull-buggeringly awful, not that refined, not much fun to chuck about, not that comfy, not that economical and not much fun. The Hyundai Coupé things aren't terrible (they can be rather amusing), and the occasional thing they produce can have a surprising turn of speed, but they're all dull. Mindbogglingly so.

 

The Jap stuff is better, but other than an MX-5, the odd fast Subaru, Toyota Crowns, Datsun 300Cs, the 260Z and a Mk1 Toyota Celica GT there's nothing out there that makes me think "I'd like one of these". I drive new Toyota Avensis Diesels quite often, they're reasonably refined and pretty well equipped (the ones I've driven have all had sat nav, cruise etc) but they're not a nice place to be. They do the job, no more, no less. Oh, and I used to sell new Nissans for a living.

 

The company car thing isn't something I'm prepared to accept as I think they should be done away with, and it's mainly a UK phenomenon anyway. I could have a company car from work, but choose not to as I don't see why I should be fried by tax for driving a car I don't want. I haven't taken some sort of cash alternative as there isn't one offered, and choose to run my choice of shite from my own pocket.

 

I'm not being small minded, I'm speaking from my personal experience and viewpoint. I love some of the old shite people dig up on 'ere, old Datsun Sunnys, mental old Isuzus, Bluebirds and the like. I love that people like them, and even enjoy the odd go in one (I'm normally surprised by the fact tidy old ones still tend to drive like they did new),

 

Diesels I don't like as I don't like the power delivery, sound and lack of ability to rev. I don't like the lack of response to the pedal, I don't like turbo diesels lethargy at low revs and I don't like the vibration you can get if you leave one in fourth whilst crawling in town. The Skodas I drive regularly have a thing on the dash to tell you when to change gear (it's an economy thing) and it tells me to change into 4th gear at around 28 mph, even though changing into fourth at 28 mph is too early as it's just crawling into its boost area and vibrates like an Ariel Square Four until about 2000 rpm. I also drive a Merc E280 CDi (and occasionally an S350CDi) which are both fitted with very smooth 7 speed auto boxes, which are there to keep the engine in its optimum rev range. They manage this well, but they do change up and down all the bloody time when in town. They do it smoothly, and it isn't that noticeable but it's happening and I find it irritating. The SD1 has a three speed auto which is all it needs for non-motorway work and it doesn't hunt up and down. I do like diesels for economy, it would be difficult not to, and I do like the long gearing that works with them, but I don't think they're the way to go. The modern high pressure injection systems can be pretty troublesome and I think diesel will die out in a few years. Something like the Honda Clarity has to be the way forward, although naturally I'd prefer it to be the Jet turbine Jag thing.

[Gompo]

For sure the NSX was never financially a sucess, and IIRC has the worst depreciation of any car in history, but read any period tests and it was far more capable than the 348 or 911, was direct inspiration and bench mark for the McLaren F1 and also won GT2 class of the 95 LeMans.

 

..I agree entirely (although depreciation wise they're not bad nowadays).

[Negative Creep]

Didn't the NSX do somewhat better in the States and Japan? Didn't sell much here as it most likely had the wrong badge and wasn't supercar quick

[trigger]

I got to drive a red J plate NSX once, I got sent to Osbournes Honda in Colchester to collect a Civic and ended up being given the keys to the NSX instead to be worked on, My boss wasn't overly happy with the idea of a 18 year old being allowed to drive such a quick car so he ended up delivering it back once repaired.

 

I'd love to comment on what it was like to drive but i really can't remember, It must have been that good.

[scruff]

^^Quite, I seem to remember CAR praising it when it came out but saying it didn't have the name, the character or image to win itself over to the posers and new money boys, who let's face it were the types buying supercars then. I must admit they do nothing at all for me while I'll happily drool over a Ferrari 308 etc (sorry, not very Autoshite)

[Pete-M]

Most of us would find other ways of spending supercar money. Other ways that don't involve supercars.

 

The NSX was something like £70k new wasn't it? How much are they now? £20k? £25k? Not got a clue.

 

£25k can be spent in lots of interesting and amusing ways. A tidy Carrera 3.2 and a fair few Ambassadors, Allegros and Bluebirds, that's for sure.

[Guest]

Without looking, I would guess that most supercars haven't made their makers much/any profit. In many cases, the actual "point" is to provide both a positive effect on their brand as a whole, plus an understanding of technology which can trickle down to the normal range. I'm pretty sure Honda don't regret making the NSX.

[Guest EccentricRichard]

I live in Surrey. Reasonably nice area, average house prices around the half-million mark now. Investment banker land. If you want proof of what I say, just go round Guildford station car park most any day of the week. Porsches as far as the eye can see. Several Bentley Continentals. Usually two or three Astons. Quite a few BMW Ms and Mercedes AMGs. Occasionally the odd Ferrari. I see particularly F360s around quite a bit. Bentley Contis especially are very common around here.

 

Regarding the NSX, there's a dealership in Guildford, on the A246 as you head into Guildford, it mostly deals in Smarts but there's always some interesting old chod in there. I've seen a VW Beetle, a Morris Minor, an MGB, a Sunbeam Alpine that had been rallied recently, a Porsche 996 Turbo, and a pair of NSXs, both around the twenty grand mark.

[Guest EccentricRichard]

For sure the NSX was never financially a sucess, and IIRC has the worst depreciation of any car in history, but read any period tests and it was far more capable than the 348 or 911, was direct inspiration and bench mark for the McLaren F1 and also won GT2 class of the 95 LeMans.

 

..I agree entirely (although depreciation wise they're not bad nowadays).

 

Gordon Murray himself ran an NSX for 11 years, day in, day out. What better testimony can you ask for?

[Pete-M]

Gordon Murray himself ran an NSX for 11 years, day in, day out. What better testimony can you ask for?

 

He also ran a Smart car for a good while, kinda weakens his testimony on road stuff.

[Guest EccentricRichard]

Gordon Murray himself ran an NSX for 11 years, day in, day out. What better testimony can you ask for?

 

He also ran a Smart car for a good while, kinda weakens his testimony on road stuff.

 

The Smart, for all its faults, is a very cleverly packaged little car, and very safe for its size. Now, given a decent engine, not that whiny three-cylinder thing, and a proper manual gearbox (or at least a dual-clutch auto), it'd be brilliant. Mind you, the handling ain't much cop if you want to chuck it about...

[trigger]

Careful Richard, remember what happened last time you commented on the handling of a car!

[brammy777]

Smart cars you say? Well back when we lived in Slough, my babysitters (lol) sister had one and it flipped over after being hit by another car on a roundabout. Thats about as close as Ive ever got to one. Probably going to keep it that way.

Oh and apparently I live in the second (or most) well off area in the UK (And we are not rich) and I have seen ONE NSX in the past year, and that was in Basingstoke.

[Tayne]

.

[Guest EccentricRichard]

There's oil money in these parts.

I've only seen one NSX and that was south of here, just outside Dunkeld, about four years ago.

The chap I was speaking to at the time said he'd wanted to buy one (used of course) but couldn't find one so bought a Monaro instead.

 

OI TAYNE! Why have you got my ancient YouTube profile pic as your avatar?! My hair is much longer than that now, thank God... looked like such a tosser.

[Guest EccentricRichard]

Careful Richard, remember what happened last time you commented on the handling of a car!

 

Aye aye, cap'n...

[Guest EccentricRichard]

Smart cars you say? Well back when we lived in Slough, my babysitters (lol) sister had one and it flipped over after being hit by another car on a roundabout. Thats about as close as Ive ever got to one. Probably going to keep it that way.

Oh and apparently I live in the second (or most) well off area in the UK (And we are not rich) and I have seen ONE NSX in the past year, and that was in Basingstoke.

 

Yeah, it ain't the most stable thing around, but pretty good in a head on/offset impact. Bigger cars are still usually better (though Fifth Gear comprehensively demolished a Volvo 940 estate with a recent Renault supermini not long ago).

[Guest EccentricRichard]

I drive a Merc E280 CDi (and occasionally an S350CDi) which are both fitted with very smooth 7 speed auto boxes, which are there to keep the engine in its optimum rev range. They manage this well, but they do change up and down all the bloody time when in town. They do it smoothly, and it isn't that noticeable but it's happening and I find it irritating. The SD1 has a three speed auto which is all it needs for non-motorway work and it doesn't hunt up and down. I do like diesels for economy, it would be difficult not to, and I do like the long gearing that works with them, but I don't think they're the way to go. The modern high pressure injection systems can be pretty troublesome and I think diesel will die out in a few years. Something like the Honda Clarity has to be the way forward, although naturally I'd prefer it to be the Jet turbine Jag thing.

 

Yeah, I've heard that they do hunt a bit. The ZF six and eight-speed autos are said to be less inclined to hunt... apparently the six-speed is slightly better than the newer eight-speed in this respect?

 

Can't say, anyway. Most people I know have manual gearboxes in their cars, so I can't report their experiences.

[Guest Leonard Hatred]

Yeah, it ain't the most stable thing around, but pretty good in a head on/offset impact. Bigger cars are still usually better (though Fifth Gear comprehensively demolished a Volvo 940 estate with a recent Renault supermini not long ago).

 

They removed the 940's engine, which is quite a major part of its crash protection/rigidity to create the result they wanted. The Modus would have probably still come off best, but not ruined the 940 so dramatically.

The same trick was pulled in the '90s Discovery vs. modern Espace test.

[the barefoot chef]

Back to 'Modern Cars are Safe' for a moment.

 

Did anyone see a report in the papers in the last monthish?

 

Woman killed in Peugeot 1007, police & ambulance crews astonished at the extent of her injuries.

Apparently she weighed 16 odd stone & the car had only been crash tested with 12 stone dummies

to achieve its NCAP rating thing.

[garethj]

They removed the 940's engine, which is quite a major part of its crash protection/rigidity to create the result they wanted. The Modus would have probably still come off best, but not ruined the 940 so dramatically.

The same trick was pulled in the '90s Discovery vs. modern Espace test.

Got any proof of that?

[AnthonyG]

They removed the 940's engine, which is quite a major part of its crash protection/rigidity to create the result they wanted. The Modus would have probably still come off best, but not ruined the 940 so dramatically.

The same trick was pulled in the '90s Discovery vs. modern Espace test.

Got any proof of that?

 

There's loads of conspiracy theories about that test on the web, another I have heard is that they cut slots in the Volvo's chassis members.

 

1990s Discoverys would be shit in a offset impact crash, most elderly body on frame 4WDs are.

[Magnificent Rustbucket]

The smart doesn't look that great in this accident.

 

 

I don't tend to watch 5th gear that often as I find it irritating, but I did see the one with the crash staged between the Renault and the Volvo. The Volvo did not do well, but whether or not the Volvo was doctored, its choice by the programme makers will not have been accidental. The Volvo was an old car by the time this example was made, and though its marketing led people to believe they were the safest car on the road, this was very far from true. Very few cars from this era were designed to withstand offset accidents. Big Mercedes saloons and the Jaguar XJ6 were about it in those days.

 

Modern cars are safer than old cars though, but I guess a carefully driven old car will be safer to ride in than any modern car driven by an idiot...

 

I don't much agree with most that Eccentric Richard says, but I don't really understand why he makes some so angry.

[AnthonyG]

I remember a 1990 or 1991 issue of What Car covered a series of offset crash tests done in Germany. Was against a concrete wall at 35mph I think. The cars tested included:

 

BMW E34 5 series

Mercedes W124 200

Volvo 740

Honda Legend

Vauxhall Carlton

Fiat Croma

Renault 25

 

All bar the Mercedes and BMW would have resulted in the driver dying or being seriously injured. The Volvo was next best after the BMW and Mercedes, and was the least distorted bodyshell, although the belt would have caused chest injuries as I remember. The findings of this test were one of many factors that led to the funding and start of EuroNCAP.

 

Someone's probably got a scan of it somewhere!

[brammy777]

Im 99.9% sure that there is a video of that group crash test on Youtube, and some of the deformation evident in the bodyshells was a bit worrying, but then again safety wasnt at the absolute forefront like it is now.

[Guest Leonard Hatred]

They removed the 940's engine, which is quite a major part of its crash protection/rigidity to create the result they wanted. The Modus would have probably still come off best, but not ruined the 940 so dramatically.

The same trick was pulled in the '90s Discovery vs. modern Espace test.

Got any proof of that?

 

If you look at the videos on youtube, which aren't very high quality to be honest, you can't see any sign of the engines in the crashed cars.

[Magnificent Rustbucket]

They removed the 940's engine, which is quite a major part of its crash protection/rigidity to create the result they wanted. The Modus would have probably still come off best, but not ruined the 940 so dramatically.

The same trick was pulled in the '90s Discovery vs. modern Espace test.

Got any proof of that?

 

If you look at the videos on youtube, which aren't very high quality to be honest, you can't see any sign of the engines in the crashed cars.

 

I've spent about an hour transfixed but appauled by these crash tests!

 

or

 

Time to consider a Mercedes?

[Pete-M]

The Volvo was an old car by the time this example was made, and though its marketing led people to believe they were the safest car on the road, this was very far from true. Very few cars from this era were designed to withstand offset accidents. Big Mercedes saloons and the Jaguar XJ6 were about it in those days.

 

SD1s were designed to withstand offset accidents. I've tested this personally with my much missed old Vitesse. It bent rather a lot, but the doors all opened as they should and nothing moved that shouldn't have. Destroyed the SD1, and the Corsa that pulled out in front of it.