Area 52 Visit (MOAR to come).

[Guest]

IIRC they were £150 coilovers which frankly are absolute shit. We see loads of ebay special parts where I work at a suspension specialists and the dampning (and build quality) on those things is an absolute joke....but suspension dynamics isn't really the point to those guys so I guess the're not really bothered, which is fair I enough.

My only experience of MM was him parking that huge bus thing with the exhaust right next to my face at RR09, which was good of him.

 

Incidentally, we had a Golf in yesterday those guys would have buzzed off. Literally CMs between front bumper and ground. We had to push it up onto the geometry ramp as it wouldn't go in with someone sat in it.

 

EDIT: Also I generally prefer PPC to RC nowadays, I don't find it overly opinonated and they tend to stick to tuned cars rather than the slammed 'n' slow I often see in RC. My Silvia is going to be pure function over form....if it ever gets done.....

 

Ah. I see.

 

PPC would be great if Will Holman didn't come across as such a self righteous prick and someone could actually be bothered proof reading the copy before it went to print.

[Des]

Thankfully I'm nothing like my Dad in that respect. He was happier with whatever company car he got, couldn't give a fig about old stuff. Except his beloved Pianos. 1840s Gors und Kallman Baby Grand in the study, and a Broadwood Concert Grand in the 2nd Sitting Room at the end of the house......... and a generic Late Victorian Upright in the hallway.

 

Your name's not Raymanboy is it?

[Des]

I've never heard a really good reason from anyone who does it. It's more of a latest fashion thing, and I'll be glad when it's all over

 

I don't think it will go out of fashion, but as and when accident investigators make a connection between slammed rides and greatly increased braking distances etc. then maybe all modifications will get legislated and spoil it for those who do it properly.

[Albert Ross]

Spoil it for those that do it properly eh?

 

Surely some of the fucked up creations might spoil someone's life if they collapse whilst cruising down a High Street near you?

 

I know that lowered cars have been around for decades, but these new shopping trolley cars are just that. Monococque shells are designed and stressed differently to a chassised vehicle. They are not built to take the stresses from hardened and lowered springs like they end up with. This only helps to place the stress on other components, with wishbones running 15-20 degrees off horizontal, the bushes suffer, and subsequently the subframes then start to crack due to the fact it is running almost at full bump all the time. There is little or no movement available at the rear suspension, which can also upset the front. The geometry will be all over the place like this. How these cars react to the road surfaces alters considerably. They buck and bounce, where the NVH department have designed it to float across the undulating surfaces.... This can only lead to loss of control on the part of the driver. Cars are designed primarily to self centre with a bias to the nearside in the event of loss of steering control. Most of these lowered cars don't. IVA rules stipulate that there must be an amount of self centring in the steering system. If it isn't there, it fails. If it is presented for MOT test, there is NO stipulation for self centring.

This is really the bugbear. I have friends that have built Locust kit cars, out of rotten old Fords. One passed years ago, before SVA. One passed this year, under IVA. Both are very similar in construction, but differ in details like pedal positioning, steering columns, and seat mountings. One owner is 5'3", the other is a 6 footer. The newest pass is incredible to behold.. A good deal of attention has been paid to the quality of construction and parts used. It's a credit to him. It's taken a couple of years, and the IVA test was expensive. But it proves the vehicle has been designed from the outset to be safe. It uses a separate chassis by the way.

 

Some of these lowering kit and rusty bonnet chancers take risks with their lives and others. It is very easy to MOT a car and then cut the springs, get 10 months out of it, and flog it to some poor unsuspecting idiot who has to scrap it come MOT time. I guess that's my point.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

FFS calm down albert!!! Go and have a low-calorie valium or repair to the GOM thread perhaps.

[Station]

I have no problem with A52 per se. It's a bold gesture and anything like that is bound to provoke discussion, not all of it positive. If something similar took place in the locales of our detractors, would you really dismiss it as you have here?

 

I think it's sad when a forum generates it's own clique were only the select few are allowed, and then occupies the majority of the forum with their antics, although not everyone is allowed insight into what they're doing. Honestly though, I wish them all the luck with it, there's no reason why anyone should have a problem with it, even the clique thing is just how it goes, we're all human outside of an internet forum. I was going to go into a huge warehouse with some mates but it fell through, it would've been a similar type of thing. I think 5 pages discussing it is a bit much, seeing as there's an immense amount of coverage on RR.

I can almost hear them saying the Autoshite forum is slagging them off again at their next gathering thing.

[Albert Ross]

Erm, it could be written on the Moon, but if I don't look at the Moon, I won't see it.

 

Basically I don't subscribe to RR.... for reasons you are probably sick of hearing now.

 

I have well formed and qualified opinions. Vehicle safety is my bag. That's what I do. That's who I am. Can't change it.

 

There. Said it. I'm not angry, nor blinkered in my views. I like modified cars, I just prefer them done properly.

[Arthur-walker]

Pointless thread, completely pointless.

 

Saying that it does look to me like half of them turned up in already prestained greased jeans to look the part, and it wouldn't surprise me if they rolled around in it to achive the look rather than from any work carried out in a car.

[Lankytim]

I recon that the problem is everyone on AS is jealous that we dont have a similar facility!

[Des]

I know that lowered cars have been around for decades, but these new shopping trolley cars are just that. Monococque shells are designed and stressed differently to a chassised vehicle. They are not built to take the stresses from hardened and lowered springs like they end up with. This only helps to place the stress on other components, with wishbones running 15-20 degrees off horizontal, the bushes suffer, and subsequently the subframes then start to crack due to the fact it is running almost at full bump all the time. There is little or no movement available at the rear suspension, which can also upset the front. The geometry will be all over the place like this. How these cars react to the road surfaces alters considerably. They buck and bounce, where the NVH department have designed it to float across the undulating surfaces.... This can only lead to loss of control on the part of the driver. Cars are designed primarily to self centre with a bias to the nearside in the event of loss of steering control. Most of these lowered cars don't. IVA rules stipulate that there must be an amount of self centring in the steering system. If it isn't there, it fails. If it is presented for MOT test, there is NO stipulation for self centring.

quote]

 

Very well put, something that needs saying, it really does sicken my arse when I see slammed shitheaps on the road, I think they're wankers of the highest order, putting others safety way behind their percieved idea of cool, and I'm not being over reactionary here, slammed cars are just dangerous. Yet to be impressed by manner in which they're driven either.

[Albert Ross]

I have no jealousy whatsoever. I do all my own work. Everything, even glazing, painting, MOT's. I have access to all I need. I am qualified to make the decisions necessary to fix vehicles and declare them safe for use on the public highway. I am accountable for it. Whatever I sign my name to is traceable to me. That's how I roll.

 

Des.. Thanks mate.

[trigger]

My biggest beef is when I read the readers rides threads and see some really nice tidy old car and then reading comments about how its going to get slammed to the weeds and have big wheels fitted, then 6 months down the line it ends up getting painted in matt black, covered in stickers then scraped.

 

Theres a stunning 1980 Astra estate on there at the moment and I can just see that heading the same way, I know its their cars, their money so they can do as they like but I do worry that the more cars that get this treatment, the less decent classic cars there will be in the future.

[seth]

Saying that it does look to me like half of them turned up in already prestained greased jeans to look the part, and it wouldn't surprise me if they rolled around in it to achive the look rather than from any work carried out in a car.

 

Be suprised! Your supposition is bo11ocks! And I haven't met most of them but have seen what they all get up to. I think the very fact that MM5 and Wat were welcome to pop by, as complete strangers, shows that A52 is open to those with an interest/purpose to be there. Say you walk into a pub where the locals all know each other you can't expect it to all be hugs and kisses within 10 minutes. After a few visits things would smooth over a bit. Its been the same in every car "club" environment I've ever experienced.

 

There are some wide, stereotypical views being posted here...

 

But hey, it annoys me when AS goes down this argumentative route instead of posting interesting and fun threads/pictures of shite so I guess I ought to stop.

[CIH]

Spoil it for those that do it properly eh?

 

Surely some of the fucked up creations might spoil someone's life if they collapse whilst cruising down a High Street near you?

 

I know that lowered cars have been around for decades, but these new shopping trolley cars are just that. Monococque shells are designed and stressed differently to a chassised vehicle. They are not built to take the stresses from hardened and lowered springs like they end up with. This only helps to place the stress on other components, with wishbones running 15-20 degrees off horizontal, the bushes suffer, and subsequently the subframes then start to crack due to the fact it is running almost at full bump all the time. There is little or no movement available at the rear suspension, which can also upset the front. The geometry will be all over the place like this. How these cars react to the road surfaces alters considerably. They buck and bounce, where the NVH department have designed it to float across the undulating surfaces.... This can only lead to loss of control on the part of the driver. Cars are designed primarily to self centre with a bias to the nearside in the event of loss of steering control. Most of these lowered cars don't. IVA rules stipulate that there must be an amount of self centring in the steering system. If it isn't there, it fails. If it is presented for MOT test, there is NO stipulation for self centring.

This is really the bugbear. I have friends that have built Locust kit cars, out of rotten old Fords. One passed years ago, before SVA. One passed this year, under IVA. Both are very similar in construction, but differ in details like pedal positioning, steering columns, and seat mountings. One owner is 5'3", the other is a 6 footer. The newest pass is incredible to behold.. A good deal of attention has been paid to the quality of construction and parts used. It's a credit to him. It's taken a couple of years, and the IVA test was expensive. But it proves the vehicle has been designed from the outset to be safe. It uses a separate chassis by the way.

 

Some of these lowering kit and rusty bonnet chancers take risks with their lives and others. It is very easy to MOT a car and then cut the springs, get 10 months out of it, and flog it to some poor unsuspecting idiot who has to scrap it come MOT time. I guess that's my point.

 

Self centering isn't usually an issue. Granted they loose most of the factory castor but IIRC SAI isn't too badly distorted. I wouldn't normally mention it, but lack of centering seems to bother you specifically.....?

edit: I've never seen anything that would show a bias toward the nearside. If anything it's common to go the other way to help against following the camber of the road.

[Albert Ross]

I wasn't arguing. I was offering my opinion on what I thought I could perceive going on in Wat's pictures. You have an opinion, I have an opinion. Everyone is entitled to it!

Mine, however is an opinion borne of experience earnt in the trade for the last 25 years or so, a good 5 years in yards and gardens prior to that, and voluntary work (whilst unemployed) with recovery firms sweeping up after accidents............ That's what I base my opinions on.

On what do you base your opinions of what appears to be poorly thought out, badly engineered, and basically dangerously executed conversions on cars, that don't need an official inspection for a goodly amount of time?

 

Call me the "Fun Police" if you like, but the sooner these cars and their components are regulated like the Germans and the French do, the better. I would like to add at this stage, I am in the process of suggesting 6 monthly MOT inspections like NZ do, but only for older cars that are susceptible to corrosion....i.e. most of the stuff over 18 years old on the roads today in the UK. I would also prefer a system like Belgium, where they are Government run Inspection facilities, and supervised, so you get 2 opinions. Also to have the Norwegian regulations.... Relative to failure and vehicle use/removal. It would save a lot of accidents. I would also like to see a more stringent driving test.

 

But then I'm a miserable cunt I guess. With no sense of humour. And I obviously hate old cars. What am I doing here then?

[seth]

[Mr Lobster]

But hey, it annoys me when AS goes down this argumentative route instead of posting interesting and fun threads/pictures of shite so I guess I ought to stop.

 

 

+1

 

Theres some right old tat being posted at the moment, not just in this thread.

 

For my 2p worth anyway, the idea that all modified cars are dangerous is ridiculous. Cars can be lowered without affecting safety. Yes they might affect usability but if the owners happy with it then fine. I'm not saying there aren't some badly modified, dangerous cars out there because there are. But saying that alone is reason to ban them is somewhat similar to saying all old cars should be banned as well because some people don't maintain them, drive around with bald tyres etc. Its utter hogwash.

 

From what I can see (from reading the stuff on RR), the people at A52 know what they are doing and appear to be pretty good at it., they've got what looks like a well equiped workshop and evidently know what they are upto.

 

I find the whole 'i don't like modified cars so they should be banned' idea to be something that belongs on the Practical Classics forum and something I hadn't heard in a good while. Thankfully.

[seth]

[Albert Ross]

I never said "I want them banned". I would prefer there was legislation in place to be certain that the post MOT modifications were carried out to a satisfactory standard. But not in so few words.

[RedSparrow]

I don't have a problem with this area 52 lot.

Just doing what they enjoy, which may or may not be different from what some of us enjoy doing with cars.

[seth]

[Albert Ross]

seth, HOW DARE YOU! There's an exposed thread on that column. Someone could hurt themselves on that. Were I in charge, I would BAN ALL QUARTIC WHEELS!

That pedal rubber looks worn too............ Scrap it.

[trigger]

Unphased April 2010 by Adam Kennedy Photography, on Flickr

 

SIMCA by manfromcovorsomewhere, on Flickr

[Albert Ross]

Is this some kind of test for me?

Diagnose and report a fault from a 2D picture?

 

Whatever.

 

How the hell did they deal with the front and rear suspension on the 505? I know the front spring platforms on the struts are indeed a weak point as standard, without interference, just as Volvo 343/360 are... a similar fault. Also the top flitches are known for corroding thorough invisibly..... The stresses impacted upon these components with hardened lowered springs can only accelerate the wear and stressing of the bodyshell and struts. As for the rear, how was the geometry dealt with regarding the torque tube arrangement? Call me cynical, but I don't understand why anyone would do this to a large estate car............ does it make it more practical? Cheaper to run? More comfortable? -1 on all three I reckon. Ruins it. Especially with those ridiculous tiny tyres.

 

Simca.... a bit of corrosion... no bumper. From a picture, I see no issues. Unless it's had a REALLY subtle drop. Or sagged!

 

I saw a Carlton Estate treated the same way as the 505... not too long ago.. I though it was a waste. Perhaps I'm in the wrong place.

[scaryoldcortina]

seth, HOW DARE YOU! There's an exposed thread on that column. Someone could hurt themselves on that. Were I in charge, I would BAN ALL QUARTIC WHEELS!

That pedal rubber looks worn too............ Scrap it.

 

oi... worn pedal rubber isn't a fail until it shows metal

 

I do tend to agree with you about *some* modifications - I'm also not a fan of lowering for it's own sake.

 

Area 52 and Bruce, I have no problem with. He's a good guy and enthusiastic with it, good luck to them.

 

In case anyone would prefer to work in a compound on top of a mountain in the middle of nowhere, I also let space, lend tools and have free tea and coffee on tap (if you make one for everyone) I just don't make a "thing" out of it. Sharing skills is a good thing to do sometimes. Maybe it's the teacher in me.

 

PS, Albert? want to give yourself nightmares?

http://retrorides.proboards.com/index.c ... read=90257

[CIH]

But hey, it annoys me when AS goes down this argumentative route instead of posting interesting and fun threads/pictures of shite so I guess I ought to stop.

 

 

+1

 

Theres some right old tat being posted at the moment, not just in this thread.

 

For my 2p worth anyway, the idea that all modified cars are dangerous is ridiculous. Cars can be lowered without affecting safety. Yes they might affect usability but if the owners happy with it then fine. I'm not saying there aren't some badly modified, dangerous cars out there because there are. But saying that alone is reason to ban them is somewhat similar to saying all old cars should be banned as well because some people don't maintain them, drive around with bald tyres etc. Its utter hogwash.

 

From what I can see (from reading the stuff on RR), the people at A52 know what they are doing and appear to be pretty good at it., they've got what looks like a well equiped workshop and evidently know what they are upto.

 

I find the whole 'i don't like modified cars so they should be banned' idea to be something that belongs on the Practical Classics forum and something I hadn't heard in a good while. Thankfully.

 

Cars can be lowered without affecting safety, but some people take it too far and to a point that compromises the entire functionality of the original design. Not to mention using poor quality, often chinese parts and/or DIY modifications without any comprehension of the risks involved. Anyone remember that mk1 golf/rabbit in america running massive negative camber, obtained on the rear by jamming a bolt between axle and stub axle ?

Also that picture of the dude grinding without safery goggles. One of our work peeps went to hospital last month after getting hot metal stuck behind his eye cutting out rotten S2000 arms and he was wearing the right gear. Y'know they had to pop his eye out under local anesthetic to get at it ?

 

Juset seems to me these guys lack a little discipline and basic common sense sometimes. And that attracts unwanted attention that impacts on us all.

[autofive]

Anyone remember that mk1 golf/rabbit in america running massive negative camber, obtained on the rear by jamming a bolt between axle and stub axle ?

 

this one?

[Claypole]

Safe as houses.

 

Guy in the brown T Shirt is the exact person I would imagine if anyone said "scene".

[AnthonyG]

PPC would be great if Will Holman didn't come across as such a self righteous prick and someone could actually be bothered proof reading the copy before it went to print.

 

Will Holman is just a car equivalent of Richard Littlejohn/Jon Gaunt these days with his back page rants, a bit strange as he seemed very chilled out in his PC days.

 

He also wrecks cars quite often , both on and off track, I have a suspicion he is a bit of a shit driver.

[Station]

And moans about the DVLA when he (forgets to) sends off a letter/sorn and gets a fine because it doesn't arrive (because he forgot to send it). There's always suspicion of that, but whatever, it's hardly magazine quality stuff though.