Stodge

[adw1977]

Successive governments seem to have acted as if the viability and profitability of the British car industry could be taken for granted, allowing them to use the industry as a vehicle for their economic and employment policies.

[lesapandre]

20 hours ago, warch said:

It used to be piss easy to make stuff up when they did artistic renderings of cars, instead of photographs. Weirdly the only thing drawn to scale in the above image is the dog.

Interesting how 'right' the design of the Minor still looks. Of all the 50's mainstream cars IMHO they don't look 'silly' or 'old fashioned' or out of place in a modern setting. 

There is a beautiful slate grey traveller parked outside a house in Dalston here in London. Just beautiful and looking totally usable.

[D.E]

19 hours ago, vulgalour said:

Joy for 5 what, exactly?  Not people, surely.

The dickey seat will offer plenty of room for all of your children! And they will be safe too, after all the body is "indestructible"... 

[vulgalour]

I don't know if to be appalled or impressed by the Clipper's seating solutions there.

[Datsuncog]

"Dad, please stop braking so hard - it's dark when the lid slams shut..."

[Asimo]

43 minutes ago, vulgalour said:

I don't know if to be appalled or impressed by the Clipper's seating solutions there.

That Allard is comically shit but compared to Dad’s sidecar / Norton 16H combination, which also had a dickey-seat, it’s luxurious. 
When I was about 8 we went to the cinema (Dambusters) in it.
Dark, raining, frozen, open exhaust and just inches from death.  
I could sure identify with those bomber-command heroes…

[sierraman]

5 hours ago, adw1977 said:

Successive governments seem to have acted as if the viability and profitability of the British car industry could be taken for granted, allowing them to use the industry as a vehicle for their economic and employment policies.

Probably also that ultimately we just weren’t very good at making cars and that it could be done much better and cheaper pretty much everywhere else. 🤣

[Matty]

1 hour ago, sierraman said:

Probably also that ultimately we just weren’t very good at making cars and that it could be done much better and cheaper pretty much everywhere else. 🤣

Tbf we were. If you look at some of the good ideas bmc/bl had they were ahead of the game. Throw in poor development, poor management and launching shit at the customer before completion of satisfactory testing and most products were bolloxed from the outset. See also, how to drag defeat from the jaws of victory

[sierraman]

Without getting drawn into a ‘what went wrong at BL’ debate, they didn’t have the assertiveness to sack Issigonis off when he became a nuisance. Unbelievably they kept him on as a consultant until something like 1987, sense would have said to have given him a one way ticket by the early sixties.

[vulgalour]

Just going to haul this back on to the B road of stodge instead of letting us accidentally join the motorway of British Motoring Bad Decisions with this snapshot of when our Lanchester was up for grabs on eBay in 2008.

Wish I knew what had happened to those lovely bumpers instead of the ones we have on it now.

[SiC]

1 hour ago, sierraman said:

Probably also that ultimately we just weren’t very good at making cars and that it could be done much better and cheaper pretty much everywhere else. 🤣

A load of old tosh that is too often repeated and the British attitude that killed the local buying market which doomed the industry completely. Italian, Japanese and German cars all rusted terribly and just as much as British. German cars were extremely expensive to buy and not often particularly reliable either. Just look at K-Jetronic complexity and D-Jetronic unreliability. Engines were generally were more advanced but not any longer lasting either. 

[sierraman]

15 minutes ago, SiC said:

A load of old tosh that is too often repeated and the British attitude that killed the local buying market which doomed the industry completely. Italian, Japanese and German cars all rusted terribly and just as much as British. German cars were extremely expensive to buy and not often particularly reliable either. Just look at K-Jetronic complexity and D-Jetronic unreliability. Engines were generally were more advanced but not any longer lasting either. 

We were that good at making cars most of the manufacturers went bust several times to until they were bought out or in the case of Rover packed up. 

[Rocket88]

11 hours ago, sierraman said:

The ultimate in stodge has to be the Triumph Mayflower. It looked terrible and by all accounts was pretty dreary. A meal of dry peeled potatoes that haven’t been cooked for quite long enough and a really small portion of meat that has been cooked for far too long and is now as tough as the sole of your shoe. Possibly a side serving of raw carrots. No condiments available except salt. 

My least favourite classic car. The very epitome of cynical marketing at the time

[Angrydicky]

1 hour ago, SiC said:

A load of old tosh that is too often repeated and the British attitude that killed the local buying market which doomed the industry completely. Italian, Japanese and German cars all rusted terribly and just as much as British. German cars were extremely expensive to buy and not often particularly reliable either. Just look at K-Jetronic complexity and D-Jetronic unreliability. Engines were generally were more advanced but not any longer lasting either. 

Yes. Repeated by folk like Sierraman who have an opinion on everything, even about topics they know fuck all about.

[Asimo]

My favourite photo of a stodge car. (What we once called  “grey porridge” cars). She’s telling him to take it back and get the XK120 instead…

 

[somewhatfoolish]

What is it? An Austin county?

[egg]

4 minutes ago, Asimo said:

My favourite photo of a stodge car. (What we once called  “grey porridge” cars)

'these new houses are all very well, but I don't agree with putting the lav indoors'

[barrett]

Not all postwar British cars were necessarily bad, but most of them abolutely were worse than what was being built in Europe. There was essentially no development of British cars from 1935-1960, we were hampered by the old taxation classes that left us with weezy old long-stroke engines. Very little thought was given to suspension and chassis design, and very few British engineers understood aerodynamics. Add all that to a very peculiar small-minded nationalism where we thought 'Johnny Foreigner' didn't know what he was doing, and by the early '60s we were desperately playing catch-up to the rest of the world. If import regulations and tax wasn't so swingeing our car industry would have died a death decades before it actually did.

We did make some good cars. Even a couple of great ones (Morris Minor, for instance), but far fewer than were built overseas. Compare almost any British car with its European equivalent and there's just no contest. Allegro, or Alfasud? Austin Westminster or Lancia Aurelia? Hillman Minx or Panhard Dyna? Standard Vanguard or Mercedes 220? Austin A30 or DKW? C'mon!

Luckily, this is a website dedicated entirely to shit cars, so there's no shame in appreciating something for what it is, and not trying to pretend it possesses qualities or abilities which it does not. I love Austin Allegros, but they're definitely shit. I quite like Triumph Heralds, but they're utterly dreadful by any sensible metric. We're here to embrace the shitness, not apologise for it.

[barrett]

7 minutes ago, Asimo said:

My favourite photo of a stodge car. (What we once called  “grey porridge” cars). She’s telling him to take it back and get the XK120 instead…

 

Is that from Quatermass, or am I having a senior moment?

 

[artdjones]

11 minutes ago, barrett said:

We did make some good cars. Even a couple of great ones (Morris Minor, for instance), but far fewer than were built overseas. Compare almost any British car with its European equivalent and there's just no contest. Allegro, or Alfasud? Austin Westminster or Lancia Aurelia? Hillman Minx or Panhard Dyna? Standard Vanguard or Mercedes 220? Austin A30 or DKW? C'mon!

I'd believe you more if several of your examples of European wonder marques hadn't had to be rescued themselves. Alfa and Lancia are just badge engineered Fiat's now.Lancia because they were never profitable. Panhard had to be taken over by Citroen in the mid 60s. And DKW disappeared at the same time. 

The Allegro was a perfectly acceptable car when put up against a Mk1 Escort or an Opel Kadett. The Standard Vanguard was never a Mercedes competitor. The foreign equivalent would be a Renault Fregate or a Rekord.

A Westminster wasn't an Aurelia competitor or a Minx a Dyna competitor. The Aurelia was always very expensive. The equivalent of a Westminster would be a Fiat 2300 and the Minx a Fiat 1400, another car with rather boring styling.

I've never liked the A30 much, but there was a lot of innovative engineering in the way the body structure was engineered. I'd prefer a DKW, but a two stroke was a rather dead end design, and would do a lot less mpg than a four stroke 

You seem to be saying  that all British cars were rubbish compared with the European ones that were the best in their class, or even the best in a class above them. 

The were good British cars, acceptable ones, and poor ones. The same for European cars. There was plenty of European grey porridge in the 50s and 60s.

[D.E]

[SiC]

1 hour ago, barrett said:

Allegro, or Alfasud?

Is the Alfasud really that much better than the much maligned Allegro as a general mundane family car? Better looking yes. But rust was horrific on the Alfasud. Ergonomics absolutely awful too. No hatchback just like the Allegro (until the 'sud was already getting on for a decade old). Driving dynamics yes of course but that's not much good when it's visibly dissolving not long after leaving the dockyard. Most car buyers (sadly) don't care too much about how well something drives either providing it's not likely to easily kill them. Both back then and especially now - just look how popular top heavy and cumbersome SUVs are now.

1 hour ago, barrett said:

Triumph Heralds

What about Italian of similar era? FIAT 1100 with its drivetrain parts bin raid from the pre-war 508c? Or a FIAT 600c with its anemic noisy air cooled lumps?

Vs what the French were turning out? Renault Dauphine with its piddly little four pot of which some variants still had 3 speeds? Or a Ami that was slower than the older 2CV? Or that built to the utter bottom dollar 2CV that didn't even have seat foam or springs.

German?

VW were still cranking out the Beetle with its questionable handling characteristics for many of those motorists that started being able to afford cars and have one for the first time. Topped with poor product packaging from lack of useful and decent load spaced from trying to push a engine configuration that was at a dead end for the average mundane family car. Their newer Type 3 was hardly an advanced car for its time either. Still air cooled and still body on chassis.

All while the other German major manufacturers that are still around were pivoting. Mercedes were an expensive premium luxury car. Likewise BMW moved from their hideous microcars to upmarket and expensive executive saloons.

 

Let's not forget in terms of drivetrain, many of those European manufacturers in 70s/80s still used their air cooled or inline OHV 4 pots on their base cars. Much like the British cars of the time.

The venerable A-Series is often commented about it's life being too long and should have been replaced earlier with a more advanced unit. Yet few comment that the Renault Cléon-Fonte of similar OHV water cooled nature had an equally long life in many of their models and only a couple years shorter in total. Fiat 124 series engine, again OHV, had a very long life too. Then let's not forget rattly turd Ford Kent engines...

1 hour ago, barrett said:

Add all that to a very peculiar small-minded nationalism where we thought 'Johnny Foreigner' didn't know what he was doing, and by the early '60s we were desperately playing catch-up to the rest of the world.

This is exactly the point. It's this anti-nationalism attitude that seems to make nationalism a dirty word many other European countries didn't and still don't have with their indigenous car brands. Ingrained into so many major European car manufacturer nations country folks mindset is that their manufacturers offer excellent products. You might as well be keying most Germans cars when you tell them that modern German car products are unreliable, often overly complex, out dated styling and certainly not the best vehicle products in the world anymore. Likewise just look at French car sales figures in France for their continued support of their local manufacturing base.

So all their car manufacturers had a ready base of users that would still buy local products and keep their industries going. Then government bailouts to ensure the industry would survive and allow them to innovate with new products if needed. Car manufacturers support not only the workforce to keep their production lines running but a whole ecosystem and jobs of other companies behind that manufacturers product. When you lose the manufacturers, that localised knowledge and know how is lost.

Even just only a few years ago recently did Renault receive another bailout to keep going: https://www.euractiv.com/section/transport/news/renaults-e5bn-bailout-gets-eu-go-ahead/

Yet in the last few decades, successive British governments have left UK brands to extinguish themselves with no expectation of any real support. 

[sierraman]

2 hours ago, Angrydicky said:

Yes. Repeated by folk like Sierraman who have an opinion on everything, even about topics they know fuck all about.

Whatever.

[artdjones]

4 hours ago, somewhatfoolish said:

What is it? An Austin county?

It looks like a Humber Hawk estate.

[barrett]

10 hours ago, SiC said:

Vs what the French were turning out? Renault Dauphine with its piddly little four pot of which some variants still had 3 speeds? Or a Ami that was slower than the older 2CV? Or that built to the utter bottom dollar 2CV that didn't even have seat foam or springs.

The Ami is much faster than a 2cv. +167cc and much better aerodynamics. They will cruise off the clock at an indicated 80mph no bother - and they're one of the greatest cars ever made: comfortable, rational, civilised, unstickable handling, great controls etc etc etc. I did a lot of back-to-back driving in Herald and Ami and it was enough to convince me how badly throught-out and barely fit for purpose the Herald was.

[artdjones]

And how about the Herald vs. all its other competitors?

Austin A40, HA Viva, Dauphine, Fiat 1100, Opel Kadett, Beetle,Anglia, etc. I love Citroens, but there were a lot of other cars around as well as the Ami. The Herald wouldn't be the worst among that list. The fact that the Ami was better than its British competitors would not be a source of shame.

That's the point. The Ami might be the best in its class, but that doesn't make any other small to medium car around in 1961 bad. Also the top speed of the original version of the Ami was 65mph. They gained an extra 10hp by 1969 which brought it up to 76mph. So for most versions an 80 mph cruise would be impossible.

Jingoism is ridiculous, but your caricature of how foreign cars were thought of 50 years ago is ridiculous. Were you alive at the time? If you've ever read Motor or Autocar from the 60s and 70s you would see that foreign cars weren't condemned for being foreign, but were tested and written about very seriously. And foreign cars sold in fairly large numbers, even though duty made them more expensive.

[sierraman]

I’m sure the Herald probably was quite acceptable for the time, I mean what did people have to compare it with? If you’d never drank other beer you’d probably find Carling acceptable. I don’t think the fifties cars were bad as such but as a manufacturing entity you can’t say that we didn’t completely cock it up in the end by the token that the European alternatives are for the most part still on the go. 

[320touring]

I don't mean to be rude, but this thread is about stodge.

 

Not the (dis)merits of the British automotive sector.

This kind of thing. LIFE GOALS

[Matty]

1 hour ago, 320touring said:

I don't mean to be rude, but this thread is about stodge.

 

Not the (dis)merits of the British automotive sector.

This kind of thing. LIFE GOALS

Grand looking bus that 👌

[sierraman]

I’ve often wondered what a Hindustan Ambassador would be like, 50’s styling but 80’s Isuzu engines.