Brutal decision from the DVLA

[warch]

I still think someone is being petty or overzealous here. 
 

If I wanted to convert my tax exempt Landrover to a Tdi or a V8 engine for example I would probably need to remove the battery tray, move or alter the engine mounts or alter the footwells. This would be a fairly common conversion too with possibly hundreds of other examples on the road all still on their original plate/identity. 
 

According to the rules, a reshell or replacement chassis components are permissible, quibbling over alterations to that is what’s caused the issue. 

[MiniMinorMk3]

This car was built from an existing 1960 Mk1 Mini that had a current V5C. When nearing completion the owner informed the DVLA of the conversion to electric power. The car was inspected by a DVLA approved inspector and a full report was issued to the DVLA. The inspector spoke the owner saying the car was very well built and it should not be a problem with getting the car on the road. Then some faceless pen pusher read the report that said the boot floor had been drilled and decided the car was not original and would have to classed as a car built from various parts, thus it would have to have a Q-Plate (devaluing the car considerably) and it would have to go through an IVA test.

After spending the best part of two years putting the car together the owner was totally pissed off with this decision. He has tried all sorts of avenues to get the correct outcome, but it appears no body wants to take up the baton and help out. 

The car in question is on this video

By the way, this is not the only electric Mini to have had it's log book pulled.

The one that appeared on Electric Classics...

has also had its V5C pulled when the owner went to update the car to electric status. If you do an MoT search on the blue car it's final petrol MoT expired in July 2022. If you search  for the car on the DVLA vehicle details site it does not exist. Same with the red car, the last MoT expiry is still on the MoT site, but the car does not exist on the car details site.

Neither of these cars exist and the owners are left with some thing that is not what they were expecting.

The DVLA are not happy with cars being converted to electric and are making a mockery of the rebuilding/restoration and subsequent registration of vehicles.

[captain_70s]

This was always going to become an issue with the introduction of the points system as it's highly unlikely any modification to an old car won't have an effect on some part of a monocoque shell.

One assumes drilling a hole for wiring in a bulkhead, for example, would count as deviation from stock. As my 740 has had done for an aftermarket alarm system at some point many years ago.

Of course a lot of repo panels are not identical to originals, but nobody is going to declare that as a modification to insurance/the DVLA so it never becomes an issue.

You're gonna have to declare an electric conversion on something, else you end up with a £10+k car that is essentially uninsured. At which point these modifications are going to be inspected properly and will inevitably fail the points system somewhere.

Ultimately it's fairly clear there is a push towards removing modified cars from the roads entirely. 

[rampantrot]

4 hours ago, MiniMinorMk3 said:

If you do an MoT search on the blue car it's final petrol MoT expired in July 2022. If you search  for the car on the DVLA vehicle details site it does not exist. Same with the red car, the last MoT expiry is still on the MoT site, but the car does not exist on the car details site.

Neither of these cars exist and the owners are left with some thing that is not what they were expecting.

The DVLA are not happy with cars being converted to electric and are making a mockery of the rebuilding/restoration and subsequent registration of vehicles.

MOT check service is DVSA run so their record wil be retained as it's separate - the DVLA can hide vehicle records in certain cases like this but third party sites (Carbaba, Cartell etc.) may still have them up.  YYL and OBJ both at least haven't had CODs issuesd.

 

Interestingly Nissan UK commissioned a Bluebird/Leaf hybrid with an electric powerplant in a formerly ICE car, which is still down as a 1.8 petrol on the DVLA records. I wonder if Nissan didn't bother recording the change as it's more a showpiece or if the DVLA would have put the dampeners on the whole idea if they had been informed first? I have seen other classics properly recorded as electric without YYL's issues though.

[somewhatfoolish]

IVA system is not amenable to EV conversion; doing it by the book is absurdly onerous compared to even ambitious ICE swaps. Not fit for purpose.

[sheffcortinacentre]

The DVLA you meen? Isn't fit for purpose! I'll have you know their perfect & have confirmed this on many occasions.

The way nowadays to sort this stuff is to convince the powers that be of all the revenue,vat,fuel tax, national insurance payments & anything else they'll be financially losing by backing these sort of decisions.

[egg]

I won't be spending £20k on converting my Mondeo to Tesla power next week anywayz!

[AnthonyG]

Surely sticking an electric motor in a 1960 Mini will devalue the hell out of it anyway? It’s not like petrol is going to be unavailable in 2030 or something.

Instead of scrapping it, he could put an A series back in it, Q plate it with an IVA, and flog it to a buyer in the USA or Japan where they won’t give a fuck about its original registration. 

I think the EU are taking the view that an electric converted ‘historic’ vehicle isn’t an historic vehicle anymore, in terms of perks like free tax, roadworthiness test exemptions etc and it sounds like the U.K. is doing the same. Personally I don’t have a problem with that. 

[Missy Charm]

Is this not a misrepresentation of the facts by the Mini owner?*  The fact of the matter is that he has radically altered his car and could, if he wished, have a test carried out for roadworthiness under the radically altered vehicles procedure.  He doesn't wish to do that, on the basis that if a Q plate is issued - and nothing suggests one wouldn't be - his car will be worth less and become more difficult to insure.  Why should an exception be made just for him?  

I suspect part of this relates to those wanting to provide 'electrified classics' as the latest toy for rich people, who don't want the things registered as Q plated kit cars.  The bottom line is that they are.  This isn't akin to a street machine or similar where a more powerful engine has been fitted, the whole nature of the vehicle has changed.  

*The Pistonheads discussion is somewhat illuminating.  A computer generated drawing of the electric Mini's engine compartment is provided, which appears to show substantial alterations to the front subframe and structure, but no other photographs and the like.  The complainant has also refused to provide scans of any DVLA correspondence on the basis that they 'won't give it to him', which leads me to suspect that the voiding of the registration may be for reasons other than the hole in the boot.  

[cobblers]

I continue to thoroughly stand by the fact that it is nothing good will ever come from telling the DVLA anything beyond change of keeper. Changed colour? Keep your mouth shut (it's picked up on the MOT test anyway). Changed your engine? Seriously, keep your mouth shut. Changed your engine for an electric motor? Fucking hell man keep your mouth shut and blur your number plates in photos.

They don't understand their own rules, and the rules were written by people who don't really understand what they are trying to police, or why.

In telling the DVLA about any modification all you're doing is playing a "am I going to make my car practically un-registerable" gamble, but the odds are messed up because you stand to "win" absolutely nothing, but you can potentially lose a huge amount if the person who looks at the paperwork is as thick as a boxers wife.

[Joey spud]

There's a show on the telly called Vintage Voltage where a bussiness in Wales converts a customers own car (any thing from a bubble car to a bat wing BMW) to electric using mostly Tesla parts.

There is a massive amount of cutting and redesigning of these vehicles to squeeze everything in but at the end of the show the cars owner are seen zipping around in their now electric classic car and without fail they all still retain their original number plates.

 https://www.electricclassiccars.co.uk/

Am i missing something here ?

[Rust Collector]

37 minutes ago, Joey spud said:

Am i missing something here ?

I should imagine they just do the conversion, and the onus to make sure the insurer or DVLA know about the conversion is on the owner. I would hazard a guess that the owners don't let the DVLA know, sleeping dogs and all that.

Helpfully there's nothing in their FAQ's about it. The FAQ's were helpful though in so far as I thought electric conversions would be expensive, however it turns out I was wrong; 

Quote

A small car with sub 100 mile range might cost as little as £30k for us to convert

As little as £30,000 you say?! I didn't realise you could get an electric conversion for pocket change.

[lesapandre]

1 hour ago, cobblers said:

I continue to thoroughly stand by the fact that it is nothing good will ever come from telling the DVLA anything beyond change of keeper. Changed colour? Keep your mouth shut (it's picked up on the MOT test anyway). Changed your engine? Seriously, keep your mouth shut. Changed your engine for an electric motor? Fucking hell man keep your mouth shut and blur your number plates in photos.

They don't understand their own rules, and the rules were written by people who don't really understand what they are trying to police, or why.

In telling the DVLA about any modification all you're doing is playing a "am I going to make my car practically un-registerable" gamble, but the odds are messed up because you stand to "win" absolutely nothing, but you can potentially lose a huge amount if the person who looks at the paperwork is as thick as a boxers wife.

But if you are involved in a collision and there is serious damage or injury - your vehicle may be inspected and undeclared modifications of a significant nature could void your insurance and lead to other problems such as paying damages yourself to a third party or indeed legal action. 

[Mally]

3 minutes ago, lesapandre said:

But if you are involved in a collision and there is serious damage or injury - your vehicle may be inspected and undeclared modifications of a significant nature could void your insurance and lead to other problems such as paying damages yourself to a third party or indeed legal action. 

Normally the inspectors don't dig too deep.

But they may notice if the engine is missing.

[cobblers]

3 minutes ago, lesapandre said:

But if you are involved in a collision and there is serious damage or injury - your vehicle may be inspected and undeclared modifications of a significant nature could void your insurance and lead to other problems such as paying damages yourself to a third party or indeed legal action. 

No no - make sure the insurance knows about everything to be sure you are covered. What the insurance know and what the DVLA know are two totally different things.

For example, my motorhome. It's fundamentally identical to an autosleeper you could buy for £70k, and on the v5 it would be "motorcaravan". The monocoque is definitely modified because there are whacking great holes cut all over it for windows, roof vents, hoses, electrical connections, water fillers etc. 

Years ago, I could send off my V5 along with pictures of the van which is clearly a motorhome, and the DVLA would update the v5 accordingly. But nowadays there is about a 95% chance that they'll refuse is, even if your van follows every one of their stated rules down to the last letter. There is no reason given, no feedback and no appeals process.

But fundamentally, it is a van with a bed, a shower, a cooker and a table etc, so it is a motorhome and the insurance company cover it and are totally happy about that.

[Kiltox]

Some see a Mini, I see a 2008 Aixam….. 

[MiniMinorMk3]

1 hour ago, Joey spud said:

There's a show on the telly called Vintage Voltage where a bussiness in Wales converts a customers own car (any thing from a bubble car to a bat wing BMW) to electric using mostly Tesla parts.

There is a massive amount of cutting and redesigning of these vehicles to squeeze everything in but at the end of the show the cars owner are seen zipping around in their now electric classic car and without fail they all still retain their original number plates.

 https://www.electricclassiccars.co.uk/

Am i missing something here ?

The last time I checked, 4 of the cars that have featured on the show have had their registration removed by the DVLA.

[NorfolkNWeigh]

Life was so much easier with Local Licensing Offices, many years ago the lady that inspected cars in our area hadn’t got a clue . She’d pop round , you’d make her a cup of tea and tell her what details to fill in on the form. She’d walked past the car , why would she need to get cold again poking round.

Its not like anybody ever put a set of Land Rover 8 spokes up against a MK1 Astra estate to get a Q Plate  Frontera ( twice) that had had come straight out of the compound at Luton. “ Yes love , just put Vauxhall and Model 4x4, would you like another choccy  biscuit while the lad washes your car?”

If your going to ring an old Mini and put an electric motor in it, don’t tell the DVLA- Simples!

[loserone]

9 minutes ago, NorfolkNWeigh said:

If your going to take an old Mini and put an electric motor in it, don’t put it on the internet.  EVER.

This too

[Joey spud]

31 minutes ago, MiniMinorMk3 said:

The last time I checked, 4 of the cars that have featured on the show have had their registration removed by the DVLA.

I don't know about that but quickly checking the vehicles shown on their home page they are showing as electic vehicles on my favourite car check site.

[LightBulbFun]

I will agree on the point that there is a difference between

simply sticking an electric motor in place of your A series engine and continuing to bimble around town, I dont think the DVLA give 2 shits about that, thats the same as any other simple engine change or swap

 

and sticking in a massive tesla drive unit, and completely radically reworking everything of the car to make it fit/handle the power

because what you have done there is more or less the electric equivalent of Project Binky, and rightfully so that should go through an IVA as its clearly not a non-substantially changed car

and I think thats what the DVLA are trying to catch up on, they dont have an issue with a simple engine out motor in job, but when you start radically altering the vehicle, well there you go!

 

and that sounds like whats going on with these electric mini's in-fact on the E suffix car when I watched the video at the time, I did proclaim to myself im surprised thats still got the orignial reg, and I scoped it out on the DVLA to see if it had been voided yet, had not then, has been now LOL

 

I think what these Mini's specifically are getting caught out on is the rebuilt vehicle rules, rather then any sort of kit-car rules

note how both of these Mini's have also had substantial restorations which im sure technically does count as a rebuilt vehicle!, as well as their electric conversions at the same time and thats just pushing things too far, because during the rebuild, they are not being rebuilt to standard are they?

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/rebuilt-vehicles

and obviously I dont think they make enough points! 

 

7 hours ago, NorfolkNWeigh said:

Life was so much easier with Local Licensing Offices, many years ago the lady that inspected cars in our area hadn’t got a clue . She’d pop round , you’d make her a cup of tea and tell her what details to fill in on the form. She’d walked past the car , why would she need to get cold again poking round.

Its not like anybody ever put a set of Land Rover 8 spokes up against a MK1 Astra estate to get a Q Plate  Frontera ( twice) that had had come straight out of the compound at Luton. “ Yes love , just put Vauxhall and Model 4x4, would you like another choccy  biscuit while the lad washes your car?”

If your going to ring an old Mini and put an electric motor in it, don’t tell the DVLA- Simples!

to be fair thats one of the reasons the DVLA is so fucking anal these days, the amount of dodgy shenanigans that went down at local offices and the such like is beggars belief 

seriously the amount of shit I have heard about and uncovered in my time!

 

one of my favrioute ones was someone managing to get a nice valulable registration mark for their car they had just imported from zimbabwe or zanzibar, or something such, where their logbooks looked a lot like our old Green ones, so the idiot at their DVLC local office just happily processed said foreign registration document as a Buff logbook to V5 application and give him his cars nice short 2 letter 1 digit zimbabwe registration mark! (I have probably got the country wrong, but you get the idea)

[Jerzy Woking]

My former Saab was highly modified. ECU, Turbo, intercooler, throttle bodies, exhaust system, wheels, brakes, suspension, in-car entertainment, and other bits.

Insurers charged me LESS than tye standard model I had immediately before it, and also gave it a much higher agreed value. 

Very difficult and expensive to modify any car here in Spain, even harder if you want your car registered as an  "Historic" vehicle.

[Split_Pin]

As an adenoidal, rivet counting, unhelpful Rover apologist, may I say it serves the owner of the red Mini right for bastardising a lovely looking standard early example. 

Reading through all the information, I agree that we are only in possession of a percentage of the true facts.

[barefoot]

I don't care because I'm a 'motoring enthusiast'.

[sierraman]

If this puts a stop to some soulless Surrey IT consultant called Ian deciding a Batwing BMW would be much better with a motor from a spin dryer and not the glorious engine it was originally fitted with then I’m all for it rendering them unable to be used. The guy knew there was a points system, he’s not met the criteria so a Q plate it is...

[Missy Charm]

I don't wonder if the DVLA aren't having a clandestine clampdown on electric 'classics' on the basis that they are likely to be sold to a completely different sort of driver from the average car customizer.  Someone who puts a 400 bhp V8 in a Ford Zephyr is likely to be the sort of person who will drive or trailer the car to a couple of rod and custom shows a year and leave it in the garage much of the rest of time.  Someone buying a Morris Minor fitted with a 400 bhp electric motor, however, is more likely to want the thing as a 'toy' or even as a daily driver.  That's going to mean taking it on the road regularly - which is more viable as it won't be necessary to go through the street rodder's rigmarole of fiddling with the engine before the journey and breaking down halfway through it - and potentially showing off with regards to acceleration and the like.  Unfortunately such things may lead to dead soulless IT consultants from Surrey; old cars aren't great in crashes and old cars which have been butchered by amateurs in sheds are going to be even worse.  

[cobblers]

2 minutes ago, Missy Charm said:

I don't wonder if the DVLA aren't having a clandestine clampdown on electric 'classics' on the basis that they are likely to be sold to a completely different sort of driver from the average car customizer.

I think you are giving the people at the dvla about 9,000,000% more credit than they deserve

[SiC]

49 minutes ago, Split_Pin said:

As an adenoidal, rivet counting, unhelpful Rover apologist, may I say it serves the owner of the red Mini right for bastardising a lovely looking standard early example. 

Maybe a similar mindset of individual is working at the DVLA? 

I'm not 100% happy classics are being electrically converted. However it is a growing market not just in the UK but in many other markets and employs people with decent paying jobs. There is (imo) a difference between a drop in electric conversion that is broadly the same output power and one radically altered with a very hot setup though. This enforcement for the DVLA doesn't make a distinction. 

[Dave_Q]

Found this linked from the PH thread about the mini.

Several people reporting they got their EV conversions pulled for inspection and that if any sort of hole or modification is found you'll get sent to IVA.

https://openinverter.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2379

[somewhatfoolish]

There's a world of difference between what the plaintiff with the mini has had done and a frankenstein with a tesla motor and a power to weight ratio, weight distribution and maximum speed utterly changed; where the power etc remain near to that originally fitted it isn't a radical change and should be allowed in the same way minis with tuned A series are allowed, minis with 300kW flux capacitor drives should be subject to IVA. Demanding that EV converters pay thousands to 3rd party labs for inspection and test regimens drafted with OE manufacturers in mind is unreasonably onerous and is creating a problem rather than solving one, as people convert but do not declare it to DVLA.