Vintage Shite - Edumacate me?

[83C]

Recently I’ve been daydreaming about owning a prewar or maybe slightly postwar car. Something that wouldn’t look out of place in an episode of Foyles War.

I am utterly clueless about almost anything from this era of motoring, I recognise the different marques and know a little about the higher end of the market such as older Royces, Bentleys, Mercs and even Horch, but the ‘normal’ stuff is largely a mystery to me. I do know that coachbuilding was common, though I’m not specifically after something like that. I was looking at a nice Riley RMA on eBay, that sort of thing appeals. Until yesterday I knew of Riley, but had no idea what an RMA was, or that there is a whole series of RMs.

This might not happen, and certainly not anytime soon, but I wouldn’t mind learning a bit more. My other concern is that being a fat six an’ half footer, I might not actually be able to fit in any of them. 

So, any OldShite fans here?

[Mr Pastry]

Yes, what do you want to know?

General thoughts - most cars of that ilk are relatively simple and solidly built, but will need a lot more maintenance than a "modern" and some parts will be seriously expensive - tyres especially.  Actual parts availability isn't too much of a problem unless it is really obscure, because there are always owner's clubs and men in sheds, but you can't get your parts the next day.    If looked after and driven sensibly there is no reason why an old shite car shouldn't be reliable.  They are mostly harder work to drive than moderns with heavier steering and brakes but you soon get used to that.  And they require a degree of mechanical sympathy, but I think you have that anyway.    

[eddyramrod]

You should consult @vulgalour about his ancient Lanchester.

Start brushing up on your carpentry, because you will need it.  Also, it might be worth learning about leather upholstery-work, as no doubt you will need to do some sort of repairs there too.  Oh and you're going to need Imperial-measured spanners and sockets.

 

Good luck!

[artdjones]

Riley RMs are beautiful cars, but the bodies can be tricky to keep in order or restore. The frame is wooden and the roof is made of leather cloth over expanded metal over the frame. This arrangement is hard to keep watertight. Also the earlier ones at least will be expensive to have engine work done on as the crank bearings are made with poured white metal which needs careful fitting. I think some later models do have replaceable bearing shells. The chassis is fairly bulletproof.

[High Jetter]

Not my taste, but good luck. Usually older will mean more work, subject to the purchase price/condition issue. 

[artdjones]

Riley RMs:-

RMA early 1½ litre saloon.   

RMB early 2½ litre saloon.

RMC 2½ litre roadster with 3 abreast seating, designed to try to appeal to American tastes.

RMD 2½ litre drophead coupé, truly wonderful.

RME later 1½ litre saloon with some restyling.

RMF later 2½ saloon.

There's also an RMH, which is a Gerald Palmer designed saloon with pontoon styling and the 2½ engine. The model name was Pathfinder, but owing to the panhard rod design being weedy and  prone to detaching from the chassis it was nicknamed the Ditchfinder.

[Three Speed]

If you like the style of the RM but don’t fancy all the wood frame , fabric roof, consider a Citroen Light 15.or if you want a little more room a Big 15. Often upholstered in leather and with a nice wooden dashboard.
The Traction Avant is the French version- usually left hand drive, cloth interior and no wood. Small version is the Legere, bigger one is the Normale (like mine).
Front wheel drive, rack and pinion steering, hydraulic brakes. Recommended.

[barrett]

27 minutes ago, 83C said:

Recently I’ve been daydreaming about owning a prewar or maybe slightly postwar car. Something that wouldn’t look out of place in an episode of Foyles War.

I am utterly clueless about almost anything from this era of motoring, I recognise the different marques and know a little about the higher end of the market such as older Royces, Bentleys, Mercs and even Horch, but the ‘normal’ stuff is largely a mystery to me. I do know that coachbuilding was common, though I’m not specifically after something like that. I was looking at a nice Riley RMA on eBay, that sort of thing appeals. Until yesterday I knew of Riley, but had no idea what an RMA was, or that there is a whole series of RMs.

This might not happen, and certainly not anytime soon, but I wouldn’t mind learning a bit more. My other concern is that being a fat six an’ half footer, I might not actually be able to fit in any of them. 

So, any OldShite fans here?

Lesson one: 'Vintage' means something built before 1931. The reason this definition exists is because cars built from 1930-1950 are generally considered to be the lowest point in car design (particularly in this country) and, with plenty of exceptions, almost anything affordable from that period will be pretty miserable. It's a bit academic 70 or more years down the line, of course, as anything 'old' has a certain charm you won't find in a modern vehicle. If a 1980s car can provide driving enjoyment, then a 1930s one certainly can, but it'll be hampered by generally cheap construction, asthmatic underpowered engines, short gearing (and often only three speeds), horribly high-geared steering with no feel, heavy bodies, bad brakes and rust. And almost universally terrible styling.

If your aim is the occasional bimble to the pub in something tweed-and-flat-cappy, then you'll be fine. If you're looking for something actually 'good' then you'll be disappointed. Ever been in a 1950s Ford Pop? They're all like that (ok, not quite as bad, but getting there). Obviously there were objectively bad cars built during the Vintage era, but for the most part cars built in the 1920s were of high quality and are great to drive. Having driven thousands of miles all over the UK and France in Vintage cars, I can safely say there is little else I'd rather do with my free time than undertake a successful journey in something approaching 100 years old. The trouble is, the really nice stuff is eye-wateringly expensive.

Rileys are excellent. A sorted RM would be a perfectly capable daily driver with only basic maintanence. Even my 1929 Riley is quite comfortable to use in the modern world. It was an advanced design when it was launched, and all the pre-Nuffield Rileys were based around the same basic architecture, which wasn't really outdated in the 1950s. The 1.5-litre cars are plenty brisk enough and are much more balanced than the 2.5-litres, which sound good on paper but carry a lot of weight at the front and have quite dodgy handling as a result. I would absolutely have a scruffy 1.5 RM as an everyday car (and I probably will, at some point). They're not loads of money, either, but nice examples do seem to have gone up a bit in price recently.

Cooking mid-1930s British stuff is mostly worthless. If you're just in it for the lols, something like a Standard 12 or 14 would be a good bet. The 'Flying' models look quite nice, with pseudo-streamlined bodywork. The non-Flying models are pretty hideous, but if you're not bothered by looks they're otherwise the same but a bit cheaper. I wouldn't bother with anything Eight or 10hp as they'll be SLOW and miserable. A 12hp or 14hp big four or six should be alright.

Exceptions to the 'all cheap 1930s cars are terrible' rule: Six-cylinder Triumphs, pre-Nuffield Rileys, almost anything French.

Avoid at all costs: Any Wolseley, Morris, Austin, Hillman, British Ford, anything German with RWD.

Devil's advocate mode: Would you prefer something from the '50s? Lots of old world charm but more comfortable, easier to live with, useful performance and probably a heater, decent wipers, lights etc. If I had any money at all I'd be beating a path to the door of the guy selling this superb, ultra-rare 1955 Wolseley 6/90 and using it for my winter commute

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/403976209338

[Back_For_More]

I've looked at RMs before and the framework needed scared me off tbh. 

I'm now looking again as I've the time and space to not rush it if a long haul is, in fact, needed. 

A gentleman's tourer type is definitely a requirement 

[Mr Pastry]

Something from the 1950s will probably be more practical than something from the 30s or 40s, and with full-width bodywork will have more interior space and legroom if that is an issue.   What about an MG Z Magnette, or the equivalent Wolseley 15/50?   Plenty of style and character, solidly made, no structural woodwork, nice enough to drive, and simple mechanicals with a boring but sensible B series engine which can be power tuned if you wish.   Oh, and they rust.  What's not to like?

[Rocket88]

1 hour ago, Mr Pastry said:

Something from the 1950s will probably be more practical than something from the 30s or 40s, and with full-width bodywork will have more interior space and legroom if that is an issue.   What about an MG Z Magnette, or the equivalent Wolseley 15/50?   Plenty of style and character, solidly made, no structural woodwork, nice enough to drive, and simple mechanicals with a boring but sensible B series engine which can be power tuned if you wish.   Oh, and they rust.  What's not to like?

Magnettes are surprisingly “modern “ to drive .

Going back a bit further, so are these….

[artdjones]

9 hours ago, barrett said:

Ever been in a 1950s Ford Pop? They're all like that

What's always amazed me is that Ford were able to keep selling a cheapened version of an extremely boring 1930s car right up to 1959. That was the year the Mini came out!

Edited November 12, 2022 by artdjones

[83C]

Thanks for the advice so far. 

It’d definitely be a ‘limited use’ purchase, and not until I have undercover storage available. There’s someone in my village who  for many years has kept what I think is a late 40s/early 50s saloon in his garden and occasionally uses it, but I think I’d rather not keep it outside. I just fancy being able to potter about, maybe do the local steam/classic machinery rally etc. It’s also a ‘wife approved’ idea because she has wanted a classic ever since I’ve known her. In terms of driving experience the oldest road vehicles I’ve driven are a 1951 AEC Regal IV single decker (no power steering and pre-select gearbox) and a number of earlier Series Land Rovers, the driving experience of which didn’t really change until the 90/110 came along. 

Interesting to learn about the RM series and their construction - I guess done to save weight/metal postwar? Something all steel might be a better choice, I like the look of that Rover 14 posted by @Rocket88.  Woodwork isn’t my forté but I know a man who can, so any repairs like that shouldn’t present many problems. 

@barrett - thanks for the definition on ‘vintage’ - I knew there was a specific era that it applied to but not the exact year. That Wolseley looks nice and something like that could be a possibility, but as it’ll be a toy that maybe does a couple of hundred miles a year, in mostly dry/warm conditions I’m not too worried about modern practicalities such as heaters. That said I’m not adverse to carrying out mods to make a car more user friendly, just so long as the character isn’t lost and it looks right. 

[Rocket88]

These drive pretty well….

[junkyarddog]

13 minutes ago, Rocket88 said:

These drive pretty well….

I was going to suggest one of those.

What about an Austin 7 Ruby?

Supposed to be great fun,and good spares back up.

[Mr Pastry]

11 minutes ago, Rocket88 said:

These drive pretty well….

I was going to suggest a Y type MG, and they would be ideal for pottering around locally and certainly have the character, not sure about interior space for a 6ft plus driver though.   I think the engine is a dreadful thing though, and I speak from experience. 

I wouldn't bother with an Austin 7 or anything that size unless you are a masochist.

 

[artdjones]

These are a nice drive.

[Rocket88]

1 hour ago, Mr Pastry said:

I was going to suggest a Y type MG, and they would be ideal for pottering around locally and certainly have the character, not sure about interior space for a 6ft plus driver though.   I think the engine is a dreadful thing though, and I speak from experience. 

I wouldn't bother with an Austin 7 or anything that size unless you are a masochist.

 

It’s not so much your height in these… more how big your feet are. Very cramped footwells  I had one with a Triumph 1500 engine in it, went ok. Under geared though, like most things of that era

[Mr Pastry]

4 minutes ago, Rocket88 said:

I had one with a Triumph 1500 engine in it, went ok.

I think that would be a vast improvement, and it even looks right!  The gearing is a good point.  Most cars of that sort are revving their nuts off in top to keep up with modern traffic which isn't the best thing for an old long stroke engine, so an overdrive is a nice modification where possible.

[MiniMinorMk3]

Here's a list of cars from 1946 and 1947, plenty of stuff to choose from

1946 British and European Car Spotters Guide (uniquecarsandparts.com)

1947 British and European Car Spotters Guide (uniquecarsandparts.com)

 

If I was going back that far in time I might be tempted by a Ford V8 Pilot

 

[eddyramrod]

A Riley RM is a gorgeous thing.  It can also be made to look like this...

A lockdown build by the great Andy Saunders, from a basket-case Riley.  I mean... this redefines gorgeous!  I want!

[MiniMinorMk3]

14 minutes ago, eddyramrod said:

A Riley RM is a gorgeous thing.  It can also be made to look like this...

A lockdown build by the great Andy Saunders, from a basket-case Riley.  I mean... this redefines gorgeous!  I want!

That's very much in the style of the Figoni and Falschi Delahayes of the 1930s

[eddyramrod]

Yes indeed.  I think it's very safe to assume that was his inspiration.

[83C]

2 hours ago, Rocket88 said:

It’s not so much your height in these… more how big your feet are. 

Size 15s. It’s bad enough with the Arnage, I quite often rub the side of the brake pedal when pressing the throttle, though it’s something I’m now very aware of and try to avoid.

[83C]

1 hour ago, eddyramrod said:

A Riley RM is a gorgeous thing.  It can also be made to look like this...

A lockdown build by the great Andy Saunders, from a basket-case Riley.  I mean... this redefines gorgeous!  I want!

That really is stunning. I love the look of the Delahayes, known about them for years but of course they’re well beyond my pocket. 

[Rocket88]

Andy Saunders… our very own George Barris…

[Missy Charm]

4 hours ago, MiniMinorMk3 said:

Here's a list of cars from 1946 and 1947, plenty of stuff to choose from

1946 British and European Car Spotters Guide (uniquecarsandparts.com)

1947 British and European Car Spotters Guide (uniquecarsandparts.com)

 

If I was going back that far in time I might be tempted by a Ford V8 Pilot

 

As one of the most accelerative cars of the period, the V8 Pilot was able to get from 0 to  60 in 21 English seconds (none of this metric nonsense).  I assume that's for the proper 221 cubic inch version.  Pilot pluses include some of the finest styling applied to a British car of that period and a genuinely nice art-deco interior with a Bakelite dashboard.  The Pilot's party piece is the fitment of not terribly well silenced twin exhaust pipes; they are one of the best sounding cars of all time:

Starting to get expensive, however, after being very cheap for a long time.

[vulgalour]

If you want to know how they go together, as @eddyramrod suggests my ancient Lanchester is going to help you understand that.  Wooden framed cars don't like being kept outdoors and much of that era is going to have that problem.  All metal cars have other issues, I'm told, such as rot in complicated sections you can't get repair panels for so there's that to bear in mind too, although they are more tolerant of being outdoors.  Other issues with older stuff is moths, spiders, and rodents who will all go to town on the yummy interior materials given half a chance.

Coachbuilt stuff does seem to have a fair bit of parts binning with switches and lights and things, but some items can be difficult to acquire since it might have only been produced for one particular car.  The combination bonnet release and mascot on the Lanchester is a good case in point for that.  Headlight sizes aren't standardised so while you might get lucky and have 7" lamps you can upgrade easily, some cars have non-standard sized lamps you can't.

Definitely try before you buy, if for no other reason than to find out if you fit.  Most of these cars are built for people who are on the smaller side and while headroom is usually pretty good, they can be very narrow so shoulder and feet room for the driver can be at a premium.

One advantage is a lot of the cars are unleaded friendly because they predate four star fuel but that's balanced out by some not being happy with prolonged high speed use as they also predate motorways.  Then there's the brakes which are more to slow you down than make you stop.

Definitely go for something you can test drive if at all possible.  I felt pretty confident going in with the Lanchester that I'd be okay with it after sitting in it and didn't take it for a drive until after it was paid for and got home, however I'd definitely say do as I say rather than as I do on that one.

Don't get a Riley RM as your first venture unless you're confident you want to tackle woodwork, welding, and upholstery.  Lovely though they are (they're on my dream car list, as it happens) there's a lot of work even a nice one can throw at you and I wouldn't recommend it as a first foray into this sort of thing.

[vulgalour]

To add to this, check out @Angrydicky's thread on the Austin A70.  That shows what to expect of an all metal car and some of the parts challenges.

 

[captain_70s]

1 hour ago, Missy Charm said:

Pilot pluses include some of the finest styling applied to a British car of that period and a genuinely nice art-deco interior with a Bakelite dashboard. 

Compared to a Jowett Javelin, Standard Vanguard, Morris Oxford or Austin A40 of the same period they look 10 years older.

Very odd that a company as big as Ford would launch a car that looked 10 years old when new, especially given the modernity of their US lineup. The only thing I can think of that was equally as outdated was Triumph's Renown.