Failed attempts to crack the UK

[Liggle]

My Dad had a 1983 Opel Commodore 2.5E similar to the below, was rotten by the 90s. A pretty rare sight on the roads even then I believe

[Dyslexic Viking]

1 hour ago, UltraWomble said:

Tomos Mopeds.

The shitters Puch Maxi.
The former Yugoslavian engineering firm basically produced bikes, cars and vans using other peoples cast offs under licence. They began with Puch bikes in the 50's and even produced a Tomos 2CV6 car under licence from Citroen.

Sadly despite good sales from larger branches of Woolworth in the UK and Kays catalogues people soon relaised that build quality was a bit shit (well, actually it was variable from acceptably shit, to  incredibly shit with many not making their 3rd birthday for an MOT without suffering from terminal engine problems or electrical maladies). Quite a few found their way into the backs of sheds where even now the nostalgia market of "Oh, I had one of those when I was 16" has pushed prices past "you want your bumps feeling mate" into the "fucking lunacy" territory.

Thankfully because they were dirt cheap, they sold in their thousands in the Netherlands of all places, there is a decent spares network if you are daft enough to buy one.
Tomos dropped out of the UK in the 1990's only to re-appear in 2010 with an updated version of the classic Puch Maxi - it was still shit, worse than ever with a mild steel exhaust now rather than the chromed stainless steel exhaust of old, so not only did they crap out, they rusted as well. Still, at £1000 to £1200 on the road they were a cheap mode of transport if you could get one to last 3 years till the MOT was due.

Tomos UK went bankrupt in 2019 and stopped importing mopeds. They do however still operate and sell electric bicycles.

 

In Norway you can drive a moped and tractor when you are 16 and a car when you are 18. So my first vehicle that I could drive alone was a Tomos Flexer moped that I bought new. Owned this for 2 years until I could drive a car and it was used all year and was very reliable and trouble free and gave the next owner many years of service after me. So I only have a positive impression of Tomos.

[Dobloseven]

3 hours ago, MiniMinorMk3 said:

Another Mitsu derived flop

Smart ForFour

Daughter and son in law keep one in their house in England to use when they are home from Dubai. 1.5 diesel automatic. Did some repairs on it in the summer. Posted about it. Actually got 5 seats. 

[Dobloseven]

Anybody remember the ill fated attempt to sell the final Tatra model in the UK?

[lesapandre]

14 minutes ago, Dobloseven said:

Anybody remember the ill fated attempt to sell the final Tatra model in the UK?

(Here on page 2)

[Richard_FM]

10 hours ago, martc said:

You might want to look into the Swedes practice of eugenics, right into the 1970's...

The South Koreans are probably less tainted* than others as the country didn't really exist until the '50's and they've kept themselves to themselves.

*unless you're a dog.

Probably not, as they were a dictatorship unto the 1980s.

[Richard_FM]

 

10 hours ago, Datsuncog said:

As well as the 'large engines' thing, for reasons that are still beyond me Australian Fords and GM products came across as incredibly badly built, with utterly gruesome levels of fit and finish.

Having spent a fair bit of time living in Queensland in the early/mid 2000s, I was amazed at just how abysmal it felt to sit in a brand new Ford Falcon BF and realise that everything in the cabin felt cheap and/or loose. The whole experience of the car - from opening the door, getting in, adjusting the seat etc - just felt like the exact opposite of quality. It was quite surreal, like some sort of weird North Korean knock-off.

Interestingly, I remember a Ford dealer in Maryborough advertising the (then) new Mk2 Focus with the strapline 'European Build Quality' - suggesting that even they realised the rest of their Aus-built cars in the showroom were a bit shit.

I hired a nearly new Holden Commodore VZ wagon when family were over visiting, and although it only had 1,800km on the clock, it felt like it had done 180,000. The squeaks and rattles were unreal, the driver's seat was lumpy, the inner door pull was visibly coming away, and I nearly lost a finger on a sharp piece of dashboard plastic while reaching into a binnacle.

I don't think it was a reflection of the Australian motor industry in general, as my Toyota Corona was also locally assembled and felt pretty good.

But I can't imagine Holden would have lasted ten minutes in the UK market against European and Japanese premium cars, as an Omega replacement.

There's probably a reason Holden doesn't exist anymore, and Ford Australia just markets imported vehicles...

Australian built cars never seemed to do that well either here, such as the Chryslers that were supposed to replace the bigger Humbers & the Lonsdales, which were made in the same factory once Mitsubishi bought it.

[lesapandre]

Looking at the current crop of cars - are there any sure-fire upcoming failures? Or is market research that much better these days?

Your starter for 10...

[sierraman]

26 minutes ago, lesapandre said:

Looking at the current crop of cars - are there any sure-fire upcoming failures? Or is market research that much better these days?

Your starter for 10...

That will be an absolute crashing failure I reckon. Farmers just buy a Japanese truck and run it into the ground, a farmer wouldn’t give a door a bang let alone spaff £70k on something for carting the dog about in. 

[martc]

2 hours ago, lesapandre said:

Looking at the current crop of cars - are there any sure-fire upcoming failures? Or is market research that much better these days?

Your starter for 10...

I fear for the GWM ORA Funky Cat. For a start the reality doesn't match the promises - 

It's considerably more expensive than prophicised - start from £31,995. The original blurb talked of prices similar to MG's, their natural competitor. The new MG4 starts at £25,995. 

The range is lower than they said it would be - 193 miles - as they are not bringing in the longer range version. The MG4?  218 miles (or 281 for the extended range version, £28,495).

It has a ridiculously small boot .

It's obviously Chinese, is over styled and the advertisements seem to be aimed at one demographic- trendy twenty somethings, neglecting everyone else. 

It lacks the history of the established brands (yes I know MG are reflecting someone else's past glories). And that name. Tesla were a new brand but calling them Tesla was a clever move as there is an obvious connection with electricity. ORA (in capitals ffs) is supposed to commemorate the Swiss mathematician Loenhard Euler who dabbled in many fields, mainly algebraic and trigonometric and not electrical... can you see a connection?

And they have three showrooms so far.

None of this seems to bode well for a new brand but.... GWM are a big, and more importantly, rich parent and the Chinese are well known for patience, so perhaps they will establish themselves. Just look at the success of MG - Chinese money and patience as well; but they also had/have cheap products, an established brand and had more than three showrooms even at the start...

[Zelandeth]

1 hour ago, martc said:

I fear for the GWM ORA Funky Cat. For a start the reality doesn't match the promises - 

It's considerably more expensive than prophicised - start from £31,995. The original blurb talked of prices similar to MG's, their natural competitor. The new MG4 starts at £25,995. 

The range is lower than they said it would be - 193 miles - as they are not bringing in the longer range version. The MG4?  218 miles (or 281 for the extended range version, £28,495).

It has a ridiculously small boot .

It's obviously Chinese, is over styled and the advertisements seem to be aimed at one demographic- trendy twenty somethings, neglecting everyone else. 

It lacks the history of the established brands (yes I know MG are reflecting someone else's past glories). And that name. Tesla were a new brand but calling them Tesla was a clever move as there is an obvious connection with electricity. ORA (in capitals ffs) is supposed to commemorate the Swiss mathematician Loenhard Euler who dabbled in many fields, mainly algebraic and trigonometric and not electrical... can you see a connection?

And they have three showrooms so far.

None of this seems to bode well for a new brand but.... GWM are a big, and more importantly, rich parent and the Chinese are well known for patience, so perhaps they will establish themselves. Just look at the success of MG - Chinese money and patience as well; but they also had/have cheap products, an established brand and had more than three showrooms even at the start...

So they're competing pretty much directly with the VW ID.3 then if I'm remembering the current range right?

Yeah...UK buyers given a choice between a car made by VW or Great Wall...I can see that going well.  For VW.

I guess time will tell.

[Dobloseven]

On 10/18/2022 at 10:33 AM, sierraman said:

That will be an absolute crashing failure I reckon. Farmers just buy a Japanese truck and run it into the ground, a farmer wouldn’t give a door a bang let alone spaff £70k on something for carting the dog about in. 

Hmm, the old stereotyping again! A modern day farmer could well be educated to degree level in their craft. Arable farmers can have millions of pounds invested in equipment. Their partners most probably are pursuing their own successful career paths. Was chatting to a big dairy farmer yesterday. Was telling me about his latest robotized milking plant where the cows basically go in and milk themselves with no human intervention. These guys often have fingers in other pies as well, property etc. If they fancied a 70k motor, admittedly most probably on a lease, I don't think it'd be much of an issue. Mind you, none of them make any money and they haven't had a decent summer since 1914!Regarding the Grenadier, the problem I can see is the Defender got there first and has an established dealer network. In fact Land rover have shot themselves in the foot a bit, with it taking sales from their more expensive models.Not sure how the Grenadier is going to be marketed,but a servicing and repair network at least is essential.Since they use BMW engines, wonder if some kind of tie up with their dealer network would work. They don't really cross swords with their range. Would be nice to see it succeed though. Needs to find a niche. Plenty of blinged up G Wagens running around. Don't think they go off road much though. Not on those wheels! 

[sierraman]

1 hour ago, Dobloseven said:

Hmm, the old stereotyping again! A modern day farmer could well be educated to degree level in their craft. Arable farmers can have millions of pounds invested in equipment. Their partners most probably are pursuing their own successful career paths. Was chatting to a big dairy farmer yesterday. Was telling me about his latest robotized milking plant where the cows basically go in and milk themselves with no human intervention. These guys often have fingers in other pies as well, property etc. If they fancied a 70k motor, admittedly most probably on a lease, I don't think it'd be much of an issue. Mind you, none of them make any money and they haven't had a decent summer since 1914!Regarding the Grenadier, the problem I can see is the Defender got there first and has an established dealer network. In fact Land rover have shot themselves in the foot a bit, with it taking sales from their more expensive models.Not sure how the Grenadier is going to be marketed,but a servicing and repair network at least is essential.Since they use BMW engines, wonder if some kind of tie up with their dealer network would work. They don't really cross swords with their range. Would be nice to see it succeed though. Needs to find a niche. Plenty of blinged up G Wagens running around. Don't think they go off road much though. Not on those wheels! 

You obviously know different farmers to me. 

[hairnet]

On 10/13/2022 at 9:00 PM, CreepingJesus said:

I couldn't speak on their driveability, especially the older models, but yes that was the winning formula: cheap, tough, and easy to work on. That Harris Bros built the kits well, and weren't cowboys probably helped a lot too. 

harris hino still on main road into dub from red cow (importers alley pug opel hyundai head offices  isuzu across road)

[hairnet]

On 10/14/2022 at 2:35 PM, PhilA said:

We had the S-10 at work. Pick-up truck version of that, with a Truckman top on.

It's almost as if GM did no market research outside of "do they have cars there?". The one we had was gutless but would cruise 55 and return upper 20's UK MPG. The interior was assembled from the standard GM hole-in-the-panel parts-bin method used until 2007; the fit and finish was poor even by American standards./wishing they were BL

4/10 Could Do Better

 

 

 english guy lived in usa too long slagging off us made products

love it (speshally when buys fiat )

 

 

[hairnet]

On 10/15/2022 at 9:53 AM, Rocket88 said:

Have we had these yet?

oof oh @Skizzer

[wuvvum]

On 10/14/2022 at 11:27 AM, Rocket88 said:

James Ruppert ( of bangernomics fame) has got one…….

I have one too, although it's not a De Tomato.

(Photo nicked from AROnline)

[vonmon]

On 10/17/2022 at 12:23 PM, MiniMinorMk3 said:

Ladies and Gentlemen, may I present the FSO Polonez. I've not seen one of these for years.

 

I had two of them useless piles of turd.

[warren t claim]

On 10/17/2022 at 12:19 PM, martc said:

Anyhow, back on topic for me... have we had Ebro vans yet? Later marketed as Nissan after they took them over.

Nice sticker saying 'Nissan Building in Britain' - I guess they mean the plant at Washington, and not the Ebro which as we know is/was Spanish.

Can't say I've ever seen a L-75F, but they were a few of these vans kicking around -

until the dreaded tin worm got to them.

A firm I worked for in '87 in the summer between my A Level years ran a couple of Ebro Trade vans. They were dog slow.

[warren t claim]

On 10/14/2022 at 7:39 PM, alcyonecorporation said:

GM brought two 117s over for evaluation in the late Seventies; I don't think there was ever any intention to sell them in the UK, though at least one Gemini coupe was mocked up at Luton with Vauxhall badges. 
@nigel bickleowns one of those cars, a PA96 (square light) that was originally silver but is now burgundy. There are probably 10 or 15 117s in the country now - Autolink (the Scottish MX-5 specialist) has/had a few. 
I think all of the stupidly delicate, hand made PA90 117s (with the 1600 from the Bellett GT-R) are still in Japan, because they're worth a bleeding fortune. Not 2000 GT money, or even what you'd pay now for a KPGC-10 Hakosuka or NSX, but still more than most people would want to spend on a car most people will mistake for a Fiat Dino from Wish. I dunno, perhaps a private collector has one stashed away with a Bellett Fastback (approx 300 built); there's at least one Holden Piazza in the country, for example. 

There were also a few two- and four-door Belletts knocking around in the Sixties and Seventies (a few were also raced here) but these were personal imports as far as I'm aware. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isuzu_Bellett

 

I'm sure they tried to sell these in the UK?

[OM646]

1 hour ago, warren t claim said:

A firm I worked for in '87 in the summer between my A Level years ran a couple of Ebro Trade vans. They were dog slow.

The last ones had the 3.0TD, with 108hp if I ain't wrong. They could finally get out of their own way, but by the time those engines came around, the Trade was outdated as hell.

 

The very last ones were built in 2001

[GR8 PL8 M8]

On 18/10/2022 at 10:05, lesapandre said:

Looking at the current crop of cars - are there any sure-fire upcoming failures? Or is market research that much better these days?

I called it when they launched, when I was walking around their rather impressive stand at Goodwood 2021 - Genesis are going to go the way of Infiniti, i.e. low sales, withdrawal of the brand, and tanking residual values - at which point I would gladly pick one up.

A year later, and I've seen exactly 1 in the wild, a GV70 or GV80 in use as part of Heathrow's VIP fleet. Totting up the numbers on howmanyleft.co.uk gave me a grand total of 435 Genesises (Geneses?). As much as I love having something that no-one knows what it is, let alone has themselves, the vast majority of people shopping in this market segment want something with mainstream brand recognition, something a posh Hyundai simply can't provide.

[somewhatfoolish]

On 10/15/2022 at 8:29 AM, skoda_fan said:

And yet there was a period in the 70s when nearly every issue of Exchange and Mart would have two or three listed for sale. I remember this because at the time as a student I was looking for a cheap 2CV (yes there were plenty of such things back then) and didn't know what a Bijou was. Maybe the 210 sold had reached the end of their economical lives and owners were just offloading them. Btw I never bought a 2CV but bought a Beetle instead.

More expensive than the 2CV and the GRP body was heavier, so definitely a niche product; 12hp is leisurely enough with the tin shed.

  

On 10/16/2022 at 8:44 PM, barrett said:

I had a RHD 24C. I think it was one of 50 (!) of all types 24B, 24BT, 24C, 24CT, that they managed to shift here. It was quite dreadful.

What like? I always fancied one after reading an article in C&SC.

[ProgRocker]

On 17/10/2022 at 12:23, MiniMinorMk3 said:

Ladies and Gentlemen, may I present the FSO Polonez. I've not seen one of these for years.

 

I think this was a design proposal for the car that would become the Lancia Delta.

Such a shame that FSO didn't have the funds to develop the Polonez further. It used the same platform as the 125p saloon, which in turn used the early 1960s Fiat 1500 platform if I am not mistaken. They do look extremely narrow compared with western built cars.

[warch]

On 10/18/2022 at 10:05 AM, lesapandre said:

Looking at the current crop of cars - are there any sure-fire upcoming failures? Or is market research that much better these days?

Your starter for 10...

Ineos have at least understood what sells big expensive 4x4s in the developed world, image and prestige. I'd be amazed if I saw a single solitary example filtering down to the plebs who work in civil engineering, the intended market is yachting enthusiasts, well to do people in the Home Counties, people who wear Barbour or better still Belstaff and smell of wet gundogs. They're going to have to go some to supplant Landrover in this particular field though, I reckon the new Defender has been a sales success, they're bloody everywhere, which is an impressive feat considering you can't even buy a used example for less than £55k at the moment. 

As to farmers they're such a diverse bunch that some do fit into the green welly brigade, whereas many others are actually living in poverty. Like all people some are car enthusiasts and buy on reasons other than simple utility.

[MiniMinorMk3]

Back on page 2 I said I hadn't seen an Asia Rockster for years, turns out my local classic auction house has one up for sale in their next auction

Asia Rocsta DX - WB & Sons (wbandsons.com)

[warch]

6 minutes ago, MiniMinorMk3 said:

Back on page 2 I said I hadn't seen an Asia Rockster for years, turns out my local classic auction house has one up for sale in their next auction

Asia Rocsta DX - WB & Sons (wbandsons.com)

Probably a better bet than a Mahindra (assuming there are any left) but where the hell are you going to find spare parts for a car that was pretty rare 25 years ago?

Still would though...

[chaseracer]

2 hours ago, ProgRocker said:

Such a shame that FSO didn't have the funds to develop the Polonez further. It used the same platform as the 125p saloon, which in turn used the early 1960s Fiat 1500 platform if I am not mistaken.

Yup: modified 125 shell nailed on top of the previous-gen oily bits.  A sports saloon they are not!

[martc]

apropos to nothing at all Asia Motors (maker of the Rocsta) were bought out by Kia. Asia's factory is still in use, by Kia, to make the Soul and Sportage along with Kia's commercial and military vehicles and the only survivor from the Asia Motors days - the amusingly named Granbird coach.

[Sheefag]

Borgward are back!

Borgward aren't back!