Rover SD1 V8 shits on MOT tester!

[Motown]

Firstly id like to apologize to anyone reading this i promised myself i wouldn't write am essay but i need to get this off my chest to ease the sheer frustration i have felt recently.

So firstly abit of context..... As some of you will know last year i rescued a silver 2600 Vanden Plas from a wet field in Cornwall which i lovingly restored and drive daily. Soon after i purchased a gold 2600 S  off Facebook marketplace which had been standing for sometime (it had various issues including accidentally being misfueled by a previous owner) This car was made roadworthy MOTd and sold onto a good home and i believe the new owner is doing great things with it. Imagine my excitement then when 3 months ago a gold V8 Vanden Plas arrived on my drive that had been off the road for 7 years and desperately needed some TLC. 

(Series 2 1984 3500 non efi vanden plas)

Now for my rant..... Please dont ever be fooled into believing the V8 is the better car just because the V8 sounds nice and values are on the rise.... The 2600 is just as capable as the V8 and far more reliable and easy to work on in my opinion.... Ive spent months between work and family making the V8 roadworthy chasing faults replacing parts of which it had many.... blood sweat and tears would be an understatement... Its been frustrating at times and normally i would say although my frustrations are clear overall it was a fun experience and ive learnt more about SD1s in the process but this is simply not the case.

(The bitter chocolate leather seats i plan to get reupholstered in the near future)

After all my work was completed two previous attempts to book it in for an MOT were foiled by a sticking throttle and an electrical issue with the lights (the car didnt even reach the garage) With time and patience (which ive now run out of) i managed to fix these issues and it was successfully booked in for MOT (its first in 7 years) this time the car reached the garage but in doing so immediately decided it didnt want to be a car anymore.

Now i should mention the car ran perfectly fine when i serviced it and had the carbs set up correctly its not like i filled it with fuel and press ganged it into action...... It also ran perfectly fine for two days while been prepared for MOT and taken on test runs to ensure there was no more faults after 3 months of hard work... It also ran utterly flawlessly on the way to the MOT garage (about 20 minutes from my house) were i had hoped it would pass or be very close to a pass after my intervention.....

But no sooner did it get over the inspection pit at the MOT garage it shat its arse out all over the tester while he was in the pit..... Gushing oil from between the bell house seam and the back of the engine... I need to stress it wasn't dripping or pouring it was gushing.... The oil desperately trying to find a way out the car as quick as possible like it was gonna burst...... As such the garage didn't want to MOT it..... The tester got face full of hot oil and naturally told me to fix the oil leak before bringing it back for MOT.

(Rimmer Brothers Moto Lita steering wheel clearly someone spent abit of cash on this car previously)

I instantly thought it was the crank seal at fault... Just plain bad luck... The seal could be anything up to 39 years old and for the last 7 years has been dormant.... No doubt its sudden thrust back into action once the car was up to temperature caused its demise... I managed to get the car back home and in doing so noticed with my foot on the throttle huge plumes of smoke coming from the exhaust.

Inspecting the car further i noticed the car was only leaking oil when the engine was running...... Surely if the seal had given up it would be leaking regardless of whether the car was running or not? It also doesn't explain the plumes of white smoke which are only present on acceleration. I decided to change the seal anyway and in parting the box from the back of the engine could see the seal was kaput and there was a fair amount of what i can only describe as oil sludge.... I couldn't tell if it was coming from the box or the engine as it was everywhere but i did notice some fine metal pieces in the oil when i drained it from the engine and havent run the car since.

Obviously i am thinking its not going for an MOT anytime soon and i am making preparations for a replacement engine or engine rebuild but i ask you wonderful people of Autoshite what are your thoughts/opinions? Could the crank seal failing really cause these issues or is the car suffering from another issue unrelated to the crank seal? 

Cheers 😀

[mat_the_cat]

Why would the crank seal leak without the engine running? There would be no pressure, and the crank is above the oil level.

As an aside, I've read it suggested that Rover played down the power output of the 2.6, to avoid it competing too strongly with the V8. It'd be interesting to see reliable dyno figures. 

[outlaw118]

FFS, what an ungrateful BASTARD. 

I've never had the misfortune to work on one of these, but would suggest that something seal related has probably decomposed during it's "rest". 

I'd suggest a flush of all vital fluids first off, at least you'll get rid of the iron filings and sludge that way, and using less viscous fluids will show any other leaks that will be a PITA in future, and be prepared for more gaskets to have perished/disintegrated. 

Good luck, it's a lovely looking thing!

[Motown]

1 hour ago, outlaw118 said:

 

I'd suggest a flush of all vital fluids first off, at least you'll get rid of the iron filings and sludge that way, and using less viscous fluids will show any other leaks that will be a PITA in future, and be prepared for more gaskets to have perished/disintegrated. 

 

This was done when the car first arrived new oil new filters the works..... I even drained the fuel tank and fitted a new pump and filter.... At that time there was no filings when draining the oil so i can only imagine a seal has let got as you suggested and damaged the engine in the process either through lack of oil or not enough oil circulating.

 

[Motown]

1 hour ago, mat_the_cat said:

Why would the crank seal leak without the engine running? There would be no pressure, and the crank is above the oil level.

As an aside, I've read it suggested that Rover played down the power output of the 2.6, to avoid it competing too strongly with the V8. It'd be interesting to see reliable dyno figures. 

Thanks i didn't think of that ie no pressure.

My 2600 vanden plas is certainly just as fast as the 3500 non efi its pretty evident without a rolling road. The 2.6 has better fuel consumption too i get anywhere between 28-30mpg were if you really pushed the V8 i am pretty sure you could hit single figures 🤣 

I do believe the EFi versions of the V8 such as the Vitesse were quicker though! 

[sierraman]

I’m no SD1 expert but I’m sure the Met used to use more 2600 than they did 3500? 

[Joey spud]

I would guess that the engine is pressurising and forcing the oil past the crank seal with it idling remove the oil filler and see if its breathing heavily.

A simple blocked breather system would be nice.

Another thought it hasn't been massively over filled with oil ? 

As it's blowing oil smoke out of the exhaust then oil must be getting into a cylinder(s) you may be able to pull the spark plugs out and find an oily one then you can do a compression test to see if its low due to piston or bore damage.

A cheap camera/scope on your phone will let you have a look inside the cylinders.

The metal bits in the oil were they alloy or steel can they be picked up with a magnet ?

 

[Motown]

21 minutes ago, Joey spud said:

I would guess that the engine is pressurising and forcing the oil past the crank seal with it idling remove the oil filler and see if its breathing heavily.

A simple blocked breather system would be nice.

Another thought it hasn't been massively over filled with oil ? 

As it's blowing oil smoke out of the exhaust then oil must be getting into a cylinder(s) you may be able to pull the spark plugs out and find an oily one then you can do a compression test to see if its low due to piston or bore damage.

A cheap camera/scope on your phone will let you have a look inside the cylinders.

The metal bits in the oil were they alloy or steel can they be picked up with a magnet ?

 

I will try that tomorrow thanks for the tip il also check compression.

The filings were magnetic it looked like sawdust but metallic obviously

The car hasn't been overfilled with oil and has had two oil changes since arriving. No metal filings in the oil before the seal failed.

[Motown]

33 minutes ago, sierraman said:

I’m no SD1 expert but I’m sure the Met used to use more 2600 than they did 3500? 

Its possible i remember both 2600 an 3500 police cars. The 2600 been the average patrol car and the 3500 being used for motorway pursuits etc. 

[sierraman]

Crank seals usually leak when the engine warms up, quite common on older Fords, once it gets bad it usually contaminates the clutch lining.

[sierraman]

1 minute ago, Motown said:

Its possible i remember both 2600 an 3500 police cars. The 2600 been the average patrol car and the 3500 being used for motorway pursuits etc. 

The Met used to have some funny orders, Sierra 2.0 autos for city work. I’d read they stockpiled SD1s at the end of production for the police, though having never seen one later than a E plate and most being decommissioned by 90/91 it seems unlikely, especially as the Senator/800 was about at the time. 

[DSdriver]

Oil seals that I have met have a ring of metal or even a spring in them, could that be the source of the filings if the seal has broken up?

[vulgalour]

11 posts and nobody has said SCRAP IT?  Standards are slipping.

[Motown]

3 minutes ago, sierraman said:

The Met used to have some funny orders, Sierra 2.0 autos for city work. I’d read they stockpiled SD1s at the end of production for the police, though having never seen one later than a E plate and most being decommissioned by 90/91 it seems unlikely, especially as the Senator/800 was about at the time. 

I heard about the stockpiling too but i dont know how true it is.... ive never seen one older than a D plate (My 2.6 being a D plate)

My love affair with 800s begin when i first saw a police 827 Fastback in 1990-1991 they were know as the battenburgs then. Although being pretty new to the local force in 1990-1991 some forces had then from 86-87 so they probably phased the SD1s out then..... I never saw a Senator police car but i hear they were better than the 800s in the corners

[Motown]

7 minutes ago, vulgalour said:

11 posts and nobody has said SCRAP IT?  Standards are slipping.

😆 Its not getting scrapped it will see the road again. Long live Rovers and all who sail in them! 

[Motown]

13 minutes ago, DSdriver said:

Oil seals that I have met have a ring of metal or even a spring in them, could that be the source of the filings if the seal has broken up?

Good theory but it was coming from the sump and not just sat in the back end when i separated the box from the back of the engine

[Rocket88]

What grade and type of oil are you using?

[Zelandeth]

Given you've simultaneously wound up with smoke out the exhaust and a major oil leak my first port of call would be checking for excessive crankcase pressure.  That could well result in lower pressure seals (like the crankshaft seal) getting blown out.

How much oil did you lose getting home?  I'd not expect there to be more than a few minutes worth in the sump with the sort of rate of escape you described.  I assume you were watching the pressure gauge like a hawk.

Given the rate of the leak the other possibility which springs to mind would be if there are any core plugs on the rear of the engine which run into oil galleries.  One of those popping out would make a heck of a mess.

Just hope nothing has suffered too badly from oil starvation.

[DirtyDaily]

Another vote for checking pcv system/excess crank pressure etc. If the oil starts to sludge then that typically blocks breathers and you end up blowing oil seals just like you described.

[Three Speed]

I had a 72 P6B in the ‘80s.

It would drip oil onto the exhaust Y piece and fill the car with smoke when idling. I was advised that the cause was the real crank seal failing due to a stuck oil pressure relief valve. Apparently common on that era or the V8. This could lead to over pressurising the hydraulic tappets which would then get noisily and wreck the cam. I don’t know if that could lead to. More oil around the valve guides and oils dribbling into the cylinder that way?

I sold the car on - which I regret.

[vaughant]

11 minutes ago, Three Speed said:

I had a 72 P6B in the ‘80s.

It would drip oil onto the exhaust Y piece and fill the car with smoke when idling. I was advised that the cause was the real crank seal failing due to a stuck oil pressure relief valve. Apparently common on that era or the V8. This could lead to over pressurising the hydraulic tappets which would then get noisily and wreck the cam. I don’t know if that could lead to. More oil around the valve guides and oils dribbling into the cylinder that way?

I sold the car on - which I regret.

Vaguely recall that vet bloke who used to rebuild things and built a land rover from scratch into a heritage shell having this issue, albeit the other way around with his Landy simulating low pressure on its first outing. 

They traced it to a dodgy oil PRV and once fixed all was well. 

One good thing about cars of this era is you can actually fix such things yourself which you certainly seem hugely capable of and that looks gorgeous, will worth fixing. I'd guess the support for the V8 is great as well. 

Mad how things go wrong at MOT time. 

I had a 520i E34 estate (wank cars, don't believe the hype, particularly with that engine) which I went through with a fine tooth comb prior to the mot then on its way over, the handbrake suddenly decided it needed 200 clicks to actually work, the brake light switch failed and it started idling like a pile of crap and stalling, no prior warning at all. 

Failed is mot of course but only on the brake items. 

Sorted them out and the idling problem never really returned in anger, very odd.  Still a bag of wank car though. 

One car make I will say will reward you on the mot is Citroen , took my berlingo over with a very iffy horn and airbag light coming on and it worked for the mot and then broke on the way out of the test station as I tried to beep the lads to say thanks 🤣🤣🤣. 

French cars are like that though. 

[Bren]

An old crank seal and high crankcase pressure.

I see there is an aftermarket carb fitted. How is the crankcase ventilation plumbed in? Is the flame trap plumbed in? Is it clean?

The breathers fitted to the original  SU carbs could sometimes block up with shite to the extent you would need a drill bit in your hand to clean them out.

Check the above and report back.