Hatred of French cars

[maxxo]

I think part of the issue is people buy a 10-15 year old, Peugeot for example

And they expect it to be like a brand new Toyota.....its not, of course its not

And the sort who often buy them and never maintain them, thus leading to reliability issues......

They're no worse than anything else, in fact they usually drive better, look better and are comfortable 

[AnnoyingPentium]

23 minutes ago, DodgyBastard said:

I prefer the aggressive look of my 305, 504 and 505.

I like those, especially that 505!

[crad]

i love my little clio, economical, fast enough, big enough and cheap enough to run (barring the fucking tax which winds me up no end). its also quite well equipped- none of my mates first cars had steering wheel wireless and cd player controls, leccy windows and doors or a trip computer (the lack of which baffles me)

[artdjones]

My Germany domiciled brother says he gets tired of Germans sneering at his car (a 2017 Mégane). He just asks them why Mercedes are using so much Renault content in the A Class.

I told him that if the sneerers are BMW aficionados, to just say "N43,N47".

[wuvvum]

I must have had 100 or so French cars / vans over the course of my driving career, ranging in age from 1938 to 2011, and I can honestly say I've not found them to be any more troublesome than any other nationality.  The older ones could rot, granted, but then so could most cars of the same era.  I don't think I've ever had a catastrophic mechanical failure in a French car.  My 50-year-old Renault 6 may be a scruffy old bugger with not insignificant rust issues, but I know that I could jump in it and drive it anywhere and I'd be no less confident about it getting me there than I would with my modern* Rover 75.

[Uncle Jimmy]

17 hours ago, lesapandre said:

 

Enjoy a Simca...

You play a V8 Vedette, I raise you a Matford V8. Old French cars are fantastic, in fact most French cars up to the end of the last century have much to offer.

[St.Jude]

6 hours ago, motorpunk said:

Mate was manager of a Pug dealership. I can’t ever buy a modern one as long as his tales of woe are in my head. Sorry. 

Tales of woe are better written down than kept in ones head.

So spill!

[AxWomble]

3 minutes ago, St.Jude said:

Tales of woe are better written down than kept in ones head.

So spill!

I've heard a few horrors, but nothing worse than I've heard from BMW/Merc owners - of course, they've paid more for the car so are much less likely to publicly say "yea, it's a bit pants" than someone whose year old Peugeot has eaten its heater matrix

[AxWomble]

3 hours ago, maxxo said:

I think part of the issue is people buy a 10-15 year old, Peugeot for example

And they expect it to be like a brand new Toyota.....its not, of course its not

And the sort who often buy them and never maintain them, thus leading to reliability issues......

They're no worse than anything else, in fact they usually drive better, look better and are comfortable 

This is why, when my soon to be sister in law (S.T.B.S.I.L?) asked me about what car she should buy to learn in, I recommended Fiesta, Yaris. Swift, notably omitting 206, Clio, C2, C3.....because I know it'll be maintained on a shoestring and the oil will be checked once in a Preston Guild. 

French cars and neglect don't mix - kept well, certain models are some of the toughest cars around. 

[St.Jude]

43 minutes ago, AxWomble said:

I've heard a few horrors, but nothing worse than I've heard from BMW/Merc owners - of course, they've paid more for the car so are much less likely to publicly say "yea, it's a bit pants" than someone whose year old Peugeot has eaten its heater matrix

I've had that experience with the Merc dealer with the wife's car. The stop start "battery" was kaput, and we both told them several times that if it's the "battery" then to just give us an idea of cost and we'll think about getting it done. To replace the part it's not at all difficult and I'd have done it on the driveway in an hour or two. Get the call saying it's ready to be collected and it wasn't the "battery" but something else which was a warranty item.

Got to the place, then get hit with an invoice for £550 (roughly), and that it was to replace the "battery" which wasn't a warranty item. I mean, they gave us the key before the invoice so I was ready enough to walk out. Thing is they hadn't asked us for the permission to do the work, and really we had told them not to do any work if it was going to cost. The dealership took it on the chin, and we had the "battery" replaced.

I keep calling it the "battery" when all it is, is a box of capacitors. There's no proper chemistry in it, and it fucks me off that it's classed as a "battery" to Mercedes, so it's a wear and tear item.

[goosey]

Not sure if it’s just a generation thing because Me and my brothers were brought up to believe that French cars were shit, no reason they just were as that’s what our parents believed. Even my grandfather who had no interested in cars said the same. 
My in-laws have the same opinion, my FIL refers to every French car as a “French bag of shit” the MIL even had a Saxo from new as a daily driver (cheapest new car at the time I think) for 5 years without issue even though it was abused to fuck but it was still called a bag of shit and they were glad to see the back of it 🤷‍♂️
 

 

 

[artdjones]

I've just read the tale of a man with an E300 hybrid from about 7 years ago. Which is basically an E220D with a small extra battery, about 6kwh. He started getting fault codes and drivability problems and Mercedes diagnosed a problem with that battery. He had a platinum warranty, but it only covered this battery up to 62000 miles, even though it covered the normal battery and the stop start"battery" mentioned above. The car had done 69k if I remember correctly, and Mercedes said that the fitted price of the broken battery would be £15000, basically writing off the car at 5 years old. After a lot of heartache and wrangling Mercedes agreed to cover it. 

How it could cost that I don't know.

[St.Jude]

20 minutes ago, artdjones said:

I've just read the tale of a man with an E300 hybrid from about 7 years ago. Which is basically an E220D with a small extra battery, about 6kwh. He started getting fault codes and drivability problems and Mercedes diagnosed a problem with that battery. He had a platinum warranty, but it only covered this battery up to 62000 miles, even though it covered the normal battery and the stop start"battery" mentioned above. The car had done 69k if I remember correctly, and Mercedes said that the fitted price of the broken battery would be £15000, basically writing off the car at 5 years old. After a lot of heartache and wrangling Mercedes agreed to cover it. 

How it could cost that I don't know.

Every argument I've had about EVs being the future involves this, and when you raise it as a point it's just brushed aside as something that wouldn't happen now. Not with these Schrödinger's Batteries, which are better than those batteries you speak of while simultaneously not being as good as the mythical battery tech that isn't here yet.

[ProgRocker]

My late parents didn't own anything French until fairly late in their driving careers: 1997 Renault Megane Scenic 1.6e RT, which was replaced by a 1999 facelifted model - 1.6 16v Sport. They needed something with an elevated driving position due to their advancing years. I have driven both and despite not liking the old fart/family man image of Scenics at this time, they were fantastic cars. Très comfortable! 

My dad had issues with the gearbox on the phase 1 (not selecting 1st gear easily) and on the phase 2 it suffered with a leak somewhere. 

I was sad to see the Scenic get traded in for a Focus C-Max. After my mum died, dad replaced the Ford with a Peugeot 308 1.4 Verve that but he didn't get on with it. He should gave held out for another MPV. 

308 got traded in for a Merc A150 (W169). 

I haven't owned any French cars myself but when I became 'sans voiture et ainsi sans emplois' in 2001 and received a tax rebate I did fancy something like a Pug 205 n/a diesel. 

[Timewaster]

Between Mrs TW and I we have had... 

106 x 2

205

206 (from new, 15 yrs and counting) 

405 x 2 (ran 1 for 7 yrs) 

Ax

Clio

FTPs excluding punctures, flat batteries and crashing the Clio = 0

Not sure I'd buy anything after around 2010 though. 

 

[motorpunk]

5 hours ago, St.Jude said:

Tales of woe are better written down than kept in ones head.

So spill!

Will be a long thread. Will try and remember to write it.

[TheXUDfiles]

I think the hatred of French cars has more to do with image and society's value structures than anything else.

German cars are perceived as commanding, corporate and prestigious in this country, even the shit ones, whereas French cars have always been seen as softer somehow and less covetable. 

To a certain extent we all wear our cars like clothes, and sometimes they present a face to the world that we can't present, or wish we could present. In times where aggression and "flexing" seems to be everyone's stock in trade, a chiselled, angry, arrogant face with four rings or a three pointed star on it is about more than image, it's about surviving in a social hierarchy where the material object is an extension of the self and the foundation for one's identity. 

The average person doesn't buy (ok, finance) a new Mercedes because they like the history of the brand, respect the W124 or want a car which they think will last for decades. In fact, they don't give a flying fig about cars, not really. 

They buy them because a W-reg Citroen Xantia won't make them as socially desirable as an A180 will. 

We're outsiders, we're weirdoes, and you have to be to play around with the crap we do. We don't get it. They don't get us. 

Good. 

I like driving a hated car. It tells the instagram brigade that I'm not playing their game. Sure, I also have a German car, but being from 1999 it just as well be from a different planet. 

 

 

 

[Shedking]

16 minutes ago, TheXUDfiles said:

I think the hatred of French cars has more to do with image and society's value structures than anything else.

German cars are perceived as commanding, corporate and prestigious in this country, even the shit ones, whereas French cars have always been seen as softer somehow and less covetable. 

To a certain extent we all wear our cars like clothes, and sometimes they present a face to the world that we can't present, or wish we could present. In times where aggression and "flexing" seems to be everyone's stock in trade, a chiselled, angry, arrogant face with four rings or a three pointed star on it is about more than image, it's about surviving in a social hierarchy where the material object is an extension of the self and the foundation for one's identity. 

The average person doesn't buy (ok, finance) a new Mercedes because they like the history of the brand, respect the W124 or want a car which they think will last for decades. In fact, they don't give a flying fig about cars, not really. 

They buy them because a W-reg Citroen Xantia won't make them as socially desirable as an A180 will. 

We're outsiders, we're weirdoes, and you have to be to play around with the crap we do. We don't get it. They don't get us. 

Good. 

I like driving a hated car. It tells the instagram brigade that I'm not playing their game. Sure, I also have a German car, but being from 1999 it just as well be from a different planet. 

 

 

 

I think you've hit the nail on the head there, French cars have no particular social status, they're not aspirational or thrusting in any way so the wannabes wouldn't be seen dead in one. I suppose spinning the yarn about superior German engineering helps them to feel better about paying a fortune for an unreliable heap of electronic misery. 

I love it when people think that I'm skint because I run a French shiter, they have no idea that I could afford a brand new 5 series for cash but the thing they CANNOT understand is that I choose not to, it's an alien concept to them. I love my little pugs simplistically, that it's not needy and that it's cheap to run and fix, it does everything that I want and very little that I don't. 

I really hope that people spread the word that French cars are dreadful because it means that prices will remain cheap and they will keep buying "superior brands".

[maxxo]

Agree regarding the German VS French views people seem to have

take for example, when i bought the C5

lots of people told me to buy a VW

but, i know from experience with family members cars and what i've heard is they don't seem to hold up well, have lots of electrical issues and rot their arches

i was told things like the suspension will be a nightmare, it'll break down all the time and catch fire

suspension is rock solid reliable, not had any issues with it and the only thing i've done is replace the spheres (which lasted 18 years might i add!)

yes i had issues with the autobox, but it had done 165k and hadn't ever had the fluid changed before i bought it, so that's to be expected

 

surprisingly, it's younger people who have been more interested in my car, people my age (18-25 bracket) that have actually been very interested in it and the suspension and actually respected it

but yet, it's classed as inferior to a base model passat with no kit, boring suspension and likely rotten wheel arches just due to the badge

well, each to their own

 

even with the modern stuff, i hear people say french cars are ugly and boring

oh well, it means stuff like this will be cheap in the future!

you certainly can't deny this is a damn good looking car

modern Peugeots are some of the finest looking stuff on the road, i do hope in some ways it will change peoples views on french cars and it's always very unjustified

[motorpunk]

8 hours ago, maxxo said:

you certainly can't deny this is a damn good looking car

I deny that this is damn good looking car.

It looks Germanic to me. The vertical white strips make it look like the bumper is hanging off. 
 

Soz.

[motorpunk]

I miss big French saloons, like I miss Saab, like I miss Rover. Large, comfy things with a bit of style and no aggression or pointless sporting connotations. 
 

Lad at work has just ordered a new Pug. I’ll keep an open mind and try it.

[hairnet]

Talking of shit french xars

[maxxo]

1 hour ago, motorpunk said:

I deny that this is damn good looking car.

It looks Germanic to me. The vertical white strips make it look like the bumper is hanging off. 
 

Soz.

Yes it does look germanic, but for some reason I quite like it

That's part of French car ownership having the front bumper hanging off haha

[Andy F]

13 hours ago, TheXUDfiles said:

 

They buy them because a W-reg Citroen Xantia won't make them as socially desirable as an A180 will. 

 

 

I feel a bit seen. Although mine is X reg so obviously is more modern and acceptable...

I just prefer the way they drive, not sporty but happy to be hustled if the mood takes you, seriously comfy, reliable and good mpg. Xantia estate is also very practical.

French cars do get a mixed response, either love or hate. While I was looking for a replacement, someone was recommending that I went VAG. I casually commented that whatever I get next can only be just as reliable or worse than my previous French cars on account that I've run Xantias for about 13 years now and never had an FTP.  The only serious bills I've had were a new clutch, two wheel bearings (one being fitted today, the other one about 8 years ago) and an alternator which are all wear and tear really! They didn't really know how to reply to that.

 

Tbh all middle aged diesels now scare me, so when I need a replacement it'll be either very old, or brand new maybe on lease. 5-10 year old diesels seem expensive when they go wrong!

[motorpunk]

As @St.Jude asked, a mate of mine was boss of a large Peugeot dealership in the Midlands c.2000-2010. They were owned by Peugeot, not a franchise. He'd worked there for many years before being the boss. I'll go light on details as it's personal stuff. He likes a drink and is a miserable bugger, and I enjoyed his tales of doom, so take this with a pinch of salt;

The biggest headaches he had were twofold. One was customer expectations. The other was warranty work. 

Customers, he said, had unrealistic expectations. They did not expect a new/newish car to break down. All cars break down, he would say. This is not my experience with other marques, but I never argued the toss. I did say that customer's expectations are set by the marketing people. They show shiny cars and happy people and charge a lot of money for a new car - so people were right to have certain expectations. If they were honest they'd say, "your car will, statistically, probably break down at least every 6 months because it's a Peugeot 307", but that doesn't sell many cars. He said that Peugeot customers were "not car people". They didn't understand a diesel shouldn't be used for short journeys in cities, for example. It's worth noting that Pug didn't make many exciting cars in that era, it was bread and butter stuff to pensioners, family cars, that sort of thing. People tended to ask "how much is that to tax? What is the MPG?" and then sign the finance papers. And then they got a Peugeot. And maybe that Peugeot was not best suited to their actual needs. 

Warranty. Maybe this is the same for others manufacturers, but warranty claims nearly drove him mental (he was a full-on alcoholic by this point). Lots and lots of cars came back for warranty work. His first line of defence was to blame the customer. Maybe that's valid in some cases, I dunno. Electrics, diesel bother, there was no pattern to it - just lots of unhappy customers. In the cases where he could not blame the customer, he would charge the work to Pug HQ. They have a book showing how many hours is expected to perform each task. If the technician doing the warranty work took longer than expected, they would throw out the claim in its entirety. If his handwriting was messy and/or the fault not described in terms they liked, they would throw the claim out. If there were more claims for a certain failure than their expected average, the claim would be thrown out. There were lots of other reasons and my mate went insane trying to keep the place profitable and customers happy. 

He got fired in the end and, I think, is currently unemployed. He now drives a VW and I am no fan of Peugeots of a certain era. Which is a pity as an uncle had a 505Gti as a kid and it's still a dream car for me, today.

EDIT FOR SHAMELESS PLUG - My book on quality control cock-ups in various car factories, including Ryton before they closed it, based on my personal experiences is on Amazon here - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Confessions-quality-control-balls-ups-factories/dp/1532719795

Edited February 11, 2022 by motorpunk
Book plug. Mind how you say that.

[Shedking]

So the consensus seems to be that there is a lot of love for French cars amongst a lot of people but a general hatred of them with the self proclaimed driving gods because they have very little street cred, I must be doing something right then because I wouldn't want to associate with them.

[Fumbler]

Just now, Shedking said:

So the consensus seems to be that there is a lot of love for French cars amongst a lot of people but a general hatred of them with the self proclaimed driving gods because they have very little street cred, I must be doing something right then because I wouldn't want to associate with them.

More or less. The badge is worth more to people than the actual quality of the car. It's sort of like the company car craze of the 80s and 90s, but at least people were interested in the plushness, power and toys in the car as opposed to just the manufacturer.

[grogee]

4 hours ago, motorpunk said:

As @St.Jude asked, a mate of mine was boss of a large Peugeot dealership in the Midlands c.2000-2010. They were owned by Peugeot, not a franchise. He'd worked there for many years before being the boss. I'll go light on details as it's personal stuff. He likes a drink and is a miserable bugger, and I enjoyed his tales of doom, so take this with a pinch of salt;

The biggest headaches he had were twofold. One was customer expectations. The other was warranty work. 

Customers, he said, had unrealistic expectations. They did not expect a new/newish car to break down. All cars break down, he would say. This is not my experience with other marques, but I never argued the toss. I did say that customer's expectations are set by the marketing people. They show shiny cars and happy people and charge a lot of money for a new car - so people were right to have certain expectations. If they were honest they'd say, "your car will, statistically, probably break down at least every 6 months because it's a Peugeot 307", but that doesn't sell many cars. He said that Peugeot customers were "not car people". They didn't understand a diesel shouldn't be used for short journeys in cities, for example. It's worth noting that Pug didn't make many exciting cars in that era, it was bread and butter stuff to pensioners, family cars, that sort of thing. People tended to ask "how much is that to tax? What is the MPG?" and then sign the finance papers. And then they got a Peugeot. And maybe that Peugeot was not best suited to their actual needs. 

Warranty. Maybe this is the same for others manufacturers, but warranty claims nearly drove him mental (he was a full-on alcoholic by this point). Lots and lots of cars came back for warranty work. His first line of defence was to blame the customer. Maybe that's valid in some cases, I dunno. Electrics, diesel bother, there was no pattern to it - just lots of unhappy customers. In the cases where he could not blame the customer, he would charge the work to Pug HQ. They have a book showing how many hours is expected to perform each task. If the technician doing the warranty work took longer than expected, they would throw out the claim in its entirety. If his handwriting was messy and/or the fault not described in terms they liked, they would throw the claim out. If there were more claims for a certain failure than their expected average, the claim would be thrown out. There were lots of other reasons and my mate went insane trying to keep the place profitable and customers happy. 

He got fired in the end and, I think, is currently unemployed. He now drives a VW and I am no fan of Peugeots of a certain era. Which is a pity as an uncle had a 505Gti as a kid and it's still a dream car for me, today.

EDIT FOR SHAMELESS PLUG - My book on quality control cock-ups in various car factories, including Ryton before they closed it, based on my personal experiences is on Amazon here - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Confessions-quality-control-balls-ups-factories/dp/1532719795

I bought your book. 

[motorpunk]

16 minutes ago, grogee said:

I bought your book. 

Oh, thanks! I hope you like it. 👍

[Six-cylinder]

Having had lots of Citroens though the years and a spattering of Peugeots and Renaults cars aged between 1970 to 2003, I have found they are no better or worse than others. The worst in my experience is Range Rovers, constant problems and high repair costs, that’s why I have only had 5!

There of coarse are other French cars I would like to try but probably will be too expensive.

Panhard

Bugatti

Simca

Talbot

Matra

De Dion-Bouton