What has 36 years of car development bought?

[Eyersey1234]

4 minutes ago, New POD said:

My first cars in the 80s were 10 or 12 year old british Leyland* cars from.the 70s but designed in in the 50s and 60s 

Both had an unlikely 70k on the clock and were proper fucked. 

*1974 Mini 1000 and 1974 mk4 Spitfire. 

I'd think nothing of buying a 30 year old mx5 or a 21 year old Bini with 140k on the clock. 

 

A 30 year old MX5 wouldn't bother me, not sure I would buy a BINI but that's only because I'm not keen on them, though I am starting to warm a little to the R50 ones

[warch]

The R50 is a fantastic drivers car, especially on B roads. I recently had a conversation with a 20 year old about her old Mini, it suddenly occurred to me that she was talking about what I consider to be the new model. 

 

[Inspector Morose]

 

Snap!!

this is the one I used to look after.

[Liggle]

There's 18.5 years difference between my oldest and newest car (Early 2003 to late 2021) and I'd happily jump in either and drive to the other end of the country.

Other than safety features like more airbags and collision detection and a more modern entertainment system the 2003 car feels around the start of the planned obselescene era, i.e. I think we peaked with cars in the late 90's early 00's. 

I wonder/hope if this new era of inflated car prices and demand will see older cars being kept for longer as it's easier to justify repair bills with a better residual value. 

 

[Six-cylinder]

35 minutes ago, Inspector Morose said:

 

Snap!!

this is the one I used to look after.

That is the one that used to belong to Mrs6C's  Grandfather.

[Eyersey1234]

2 hours ago, warch said:

The R50 is a fantastic drivers car, especially on B roads. I recently had a conversation with a 20 year old about her old Mini, it suddenly occurred to me that she was talking about what I consider to be the new model. 

 

To be fair the one my dad had was a nice steer. 

[TrabbieRonnie]

My colleague shocked me on this topic a few months back... he is a retained firefighter, and, given our rural location, has developed a good working knowledge of how cars behave in a higher-speed A-road crash.

The older (peak car) motors of the 90's-2000's hold together better, in his words, and more often save the lives of their occupants than new ones.  How can this be?  He has seen new stuff (and 'premium' does not seem to matter in this respect), literally split in half, the rigidity of the shell causing a breaking apart rather than bending.  The 'jaws of life' can apparently struggle with a good quality 90's mobile, and snap a new beemer a-post with ease.

There must be a tipping point, a speed above which crumple zones, rigid passenger cells and airbags do not afford enough protection to make a difference, and then your left with the new disadvantages... view-obstructing a-posts, controls devoid of feel, wide unforgiving tyres that grip right up until they don't, and of course, more speed and power than most people can handle.

Maybe somewhere with more traffic and lower average speeds, this would not be so (it must be the case or why would they make them like they do now I suppose?), but made me feel a bit better about the old fleet anyway!  

I wished I hadn't asked him about ev's by the way, absolute deathtraps in his eyes.  Almost impossible to unbend without battery shorting danger, and if they do go on fire, very little chance of putting them out.  

*Shudder*.

[Dick Longbridge]

48 minutes ago, TrabbieRonnie said:

My colleague shocked me on this topic a few months back... he is a retained firefighter, and, given our rural location, has developed a good working knowledge of how cars behave in a higher-speed A-road crash.

The older (peak car) motors of the 90's-2000's hold together better, in his words, and more often save the lives of their occupants than new ones.  How can this be?  He has seen new stuff (and 'premium' does not seem to matter in this respect), literally split in half, the rigidity of the shell causing a breaking apart rather than bending.  The 'jaws of life' can apparently struggle with a good quality 90's mobile, and snap a new beemer a-post with ease.

There must be a tipping point, a speed above which crumple zones, rigid passenger cells and airbags do not afford enough protection to make a difference, and then your left with the new disadvantages... view-obstructing a-posts, controls devoid of feel, wide unforgiving tyres that grip right up until they don't, and of course, more speed and power than most people can handle.

Maybe somewhere with more traffic and lower average speeds, this would not be so (it must be the case or why would they make them like they do now I suppose?), but made me feel a bit better about the old fleet anyway!  

I wished I hadn't asked him about ev's by the way, absolute deathtraps in his eyes.  Almost impossible to unbend without battery shorting danger, and if they do go on fire, very little chance of putting them out.  

*Shudder*.

Interesting reading. I appreciate it's not possible, but it would be intriguing to see photo comparisons of 90s/00s tin vs modern blobs following a hefty smack. 

[Metal Guru]

My father's first car was a Ford Pop 100E, (1961), mine was a Fiesta 1.1 Mk1 (1982) and my son's a Peugeot 107. (2012) All similar sized engines ( though not power). all in poverty spec., probably similar in cost allowing for inflation.

In terms of driving , the Fiesta and 107 are much closer than the Fiesta and the Pop, despite being more years between them. 

Biggest difference is probably safety related , the 107 has ABS , stability control and better crash protection , whereas in that respect , the main advantage of the Fiesta over the Pop is just seatbelts.

Equipment wise , even the poverty spec 107 gets decent ICE , whereas the Fiesta just got an AM/FM radio and even a heater was extra on the Pop.

Fuel economy is also considerably improved as the cars get newer .

 

[vulgalour]

The most noticeable advancements are things like sound insulation and accessories.  Being a passenger in a new car versus something from 36 years ago is quite a difference.  Even low end city cars make an effort with insulation.  The lack of wind, tyre, and engine noise intrusion can make even the cheapest new car feel better made.  There's obviously a lot more going on out of sight too that combine to make ownership and driving as hasslefree as possible.  I'm not sure you'd be as confident driving a 36 year old car for hundreds of miles for months at a time without ever opening the bonnet as you can be with a new car.

One very noticable thing when driving around in a 40 year old car is how much quicker people can set off and stop.  When you're in the older car you drive accordingly to compensate for sudden acceleration and braking in other road users and get used to feeling like you're holding people up at times.  You're also a lot more aware of noises and smells from outside when you're in something older, a modern car insulates you almost completely from that which is both a good and a bad thing.  Think about the number of times folks in newer cars simply aren't aware of emergency vehicles until they see the flashing lights, I imagine with the improvements in sound insulation and sound systems themselves, some drivers are literally unable to hear the sirens.

[Asimo]

A bit off topic, but what about the way the British motor trade has changed?

1950, many sales through tiny, local firms that were garages as much as car-shops. Imports if available at all only available from one (probably London) concessionaire.

1986 and the bulk of sales of the popular models were into fleets and the whole “Company Car” thing was in full swing together with it’s ridiculous snobberies, hierarchies and envies. Private buyers, such as there were, had discovered the imported brands, where you chose between models rather than trim-level badges and these sales kept the little dealers in business

2022 and a much smaller number of heavily-branded gin-palace dealerships arrange complex financial snares to secure an income-stream from the ever-gullible punter. The vehicle is taken for granted, ( they are all up to the job for the duration of the lease) and now it’s all about financial-service marketing.

[wuvvum]

11 hours ago, Metal Guru said:

Fuel economy is also considerably improved as the cars get newer .

To be fair, the sidevalve Fords were shit on fuel even by the standards of the day.  Something like a Minor or A35 would easily be a match for a Mk2 Fiesta in terms of economy.

[chaseracer]

23 hours ago, reb said:

...and a 6N Polo...

I'm sure that was an Audi A0.5    😎

[maxxo]

I like both old and new

Oldest car in my house is my 2003 C5 estate, lovely to drive, extremely comfortable, good seats and an excellent stereo 

Newest is a 2018 Honda Civic

Now the civic is surprising, 40+ mpg, cracking on 200 bhp and a sub 10 second 0-60 from a little 1.5

It's not a fair comparison on ride quality, as the C5 is hydropneumatic......however, the civic rides really rather well for a sprung car

Handling....civic obviously handles much better 

No idea about reliability, civic is new and Japanese so been issue free

Tech, again civic

Now I don't drive the civic much as its my dad's car, however I do enjoy it when I do its very nice to drive, quiet and refined 

The refinement of modern cars is nothing short of superb, even the cheapest car is quiet with little road noise 

Take a Dacia Sandero, about the cheapest thing you can get new, perfectly acceptable car, rides and drives perfectly fine with a decent amount of equipment for the price and perfectly safe in the event of an accident 

Now 20-30 years ago, Proton and other budget brands were your choice for something cheap.....now I like them but I also admit there was quite a difference in refinement with those compared to a base model Peugeot 306/205 etc

Reliability too, I recall with my family's cars during the early 2000s when we all had 80s 90s stuff we had a lot more issues, more recoveries and call outs from the AA (MK6 escort for example was a nightmare)

You can buy pretty much anything new (JLR excluded) and it will almost certainly be completely reliable for the first 5 maybe even 10 years, I don't see the tech giving many issues as really its all solid state components which are developments of what we've had in cars for the past 10 or so years, yes some will age better than others but I can't see it being an issue

The advent of direct injection on modern petrols is interesting, and a damn lot better than the stuff we had back in 2000! 

My preference is old shite, of course it is, but.....I drive 25k a year and I've realised now I need to start preserving the C5 a bit, so yes in a few years I'll likely buy a modern to take the most load 

Now onto economy 

Civic is better on fuel than the C5 despite the C5 being a diesel, I'm quite surprised at the economy from a mega power little engine

It seems most stuff these days will do a minimum of 40 mpg which is damn good going 

 

I'm a fan of auto emergency braking, it saved my shit once in the sainsburys van when my concentration lapsed and I'm certain it's prevented thousands of accidents happening 

Going to be interesting to see what modern stuff holds up the best, I can't see it being that bad and I think they'll hold up just fine

Especially with the way they don't rot!

[catsinthewelder]

A big difference in usability between pre and post 1980ish cars is the gear change.  Trying not to accidentally get reverse instead of 2nd is a big issue in my Dacia (designed in 69, built in 90) and my old Austin 1100.

[AnnoyingPentium]

Oldest cars I have any vivid memory of is between a 1997 Punto SX and a 2001 Vectra B LS. Both are better specced in most regards than the Sandero that replaced them (after the 08 Punto), however the Sandero seems safer, especially since it has side airbags.

I only have the one car to daily, but even comparing the Fabia to the Sandero then in terms of cool gadgets I win. 😝

[vulgalour]

Actually that's a good point.  In the Princess third will not be rushed and if you try, it complains, while first can only be selected when you're almost stopped.  The Maestro, which is only eight years newer and has a very tired gear selector, is much less troublesome and even the most hamfisted oaf can get the gear they're aiming for.

Of course these days the trend seems to be more towards automatics as the norm, which makes a lot of sense with the sort of driving your average commuter has to do.  Unless it's something with sporting pretension, automatic gearbags are pretty good these days for the majority of drivers.  If you go back nearly forty years, a lot of autos are just awful, the worst, really bad, and going for a manual made a lot of sense.

[tooSavvy]

"..Unless it's something with sporting pretension, automatic gearbags are pretty good these days for the majority of drivers.  If you go back nearly forty years, a lot of autos are just awful, the worst, really bad, and going for a manual made a lot of sense.."

I love my Badermatic...

Sharp as a box of pins (on *Boost!)

Smooth as Butter in 'kiss the pedal/soft-shoe' mode.

🤡

[GeordieInExile]

20 hours ago, warch said:

The R50 is a fantastic drivers car, especially on B roads. I recently had a conversation with a 20 year old about her old Mini, it suddenly occurred to me that she was talking about what I consider to be the new model. 

 

I have a lot of time for the R50/53 generation. Fun to drive, well enough equipped (assuming you're getting one with Salt/Pepper packs as a minimum, anyway), peppy, solid feeling, well proportioned styling that manages to hark back to the classic without being chintzy. The R56s are just more of the same, maybe a slightly nicer interior but not that much difference. The new ones to me, though, are huge step backwards - better equipped (with shit you don't really want or need) but uglier, more bloated and less fun to drive.

On automatics, my mid-90s Volvo with 4 speeds plus overdrive does a decent enough job, although mated to a turbo it can mean laaaaaaag. 

[406V6]

Interesting topic. I can’t think of any ways in which a current car is noticeably better than my 22 year-old 406. While built-in satnav is very good, a phone with nav app is almost as good.

Comparing the 406 to a car 20 years older there are so many ways that it’s better:

• fuel injection. Driveability in all weathers transformed
• ABS.
• climate control. No more overheating of the driver and the ability to clear a steamed-up car in the winter
• Air bags if the worst happens
• Power steering (which a modest car would not have had in 1980)
• Autobox has 4-speeds with lockup. These only really appeared in the mid/late 80s.
• Good fuel economy given the performance on offer

 

[cort1977]

Thinking about this today driving my mustang.  Although a 2007 it was nonetheless built quite cheap and some parts are old style Ford USA parts bin specials.  And ergonomically, that's excellent.

Look at these heater controls, in my opinion these are more ergonomic, more reliable and more effective than anything with a touch screen and even anything with climate control really.  You can adjust it in a second without taking your eyes off the road.  I genuinely think this is one aspect where car design is going backwards.

[AnnoyingPentium]

8 minutes ago, cort1977 said:

Those controls would mess with me slightly because on most cars I'm used to the fan and heat control are swapped. 

[Missy Charm]

On 08/02/2022 at 19:43, warch said:

The R50 is a fantastic drivers car, especially on B roads. I recently had a conversation with a 20 year old about her old Mini, it suddenly occurred to me that she was talking about what I consider to be the new model. 

 

The 'new' Mini went on sale in 2001 so is just about contemporaneous with the last of the Ford Escorts, real Fiestas, blobby Corsas, small Micras and what have you.  The design is also older than said 20 year old, which rather puts things in perspective, because to most of us they still seem new.  

[AnnoyingPentium]

8 minutes ago, Missy Charm said:

The 'new' Mini went on sale in 2001 so is just about contemporaneous with the last of the Ford Escorts, real Fiestas, blobby Corsas, small Micras and what have you.  The design is also older than said 20 year old, which rather puts things in perspective, because to most of us they still seem new.  

I refuse to admit they're that old now.

On another note, does anyone else feel that BMW 3-serieseseses haven't really aged much, in terms of the ones that came after the E46?

[wuvvum]

9 hours ago, maxxo said:

Now the civic is surprising, cracking on 200 bhp from a little 1.5

You aren't related to the dude who used to drive everywhere at 170mph in his bog standard Nissan Sunny Coupé are you?

[maxxo]

37 minutes ago, wuvvum said:

You aren't related to the dude who used to drive everywhere at 170mph in his bog standard Nissan Sunny Coupé are you?

I am not

I did drive at 100 mph once! Only for a few seconds, didn't see what all the excitement was about

[wuvvum]

1 hour ago, AnnoyingPentium said:

On another note, does anyone else feel that BMW 3-serieseseses haven't really aged much, in terms of the ones that came after the E46?

Yep, same as Audi A4s have basically looked the same ever since the B7.

[Jamie]

12 hours ago, 406V6 said:

. While built-in satnav is very good, a phone with nav app is almost as good.

 

 

I honestly prefer to use my phone's google maps rather than ANY in car effort. Having various hire cars and my own 4 series with a relatively modern map in it, the google app one is far more intuitive than the cars effort. 

[Metal Guru]

4 minutes ago, Jamie said:

I honestly prefer to use my phone's google maps rather than ANY in car effort. Having various hire cars and my own 4 series with a relatively modern map in it, the google app one is far more intuitive than the cars effort. 

I prefer my £1.99 Aldi Road atlas.

[Tommyboy12]

I may have missed it if its already been said but honestly I think the biggest development has been safety. You could not plow a Metro head on into a wall at 40mph and expect to walk afterwards. Now you can be doing considerably more and the door will still open.