JJ0063’s current steed - Life of an impulsive car owner [N47 CHAIN GANG]

[JJ0063]

6 minutes ago, garbaldy said:

If you had bought the ten quid multimeter first you could have tested glow plugs and battery,. Have the glow plugs got power to them?

Could have but that £10 has gone towards the new plugs which are done and are a good thing to have changed regardless and a proper battery test was free

Yes glow plugs are functioning fine, it’s actually behaved itself the last day or so too. 

[bigfella2]

14 minutes ago, garbaldy said:

If you had bought the ten quid multimeter first you could have tested glow plugs and battery,. Have the glow plugs got power to them?

You can't test a battery with a multimeter, it needs to be load tested or tested with battery analyser.

[garbaldy]

5 minutes ago, bigfella2 said:

You can't test a battery with a multimeter, it needs to be load tested or tested with battery analyser.

Yes you can.

Stick headlights fans on and watch voltage, it shouldn't drop to far then simply crank it over and if voltage drops lower than 9 Volts it's goosed or as good as.   Any battery that doesn't chuck out 10 volts on cracking isn't long to this world.

I had trouble as op with the Corsa diesel being a pain which I documented on here, it had two battery drop tests both agreeing it was okay but low and behold it was the battery all along 

[SiC]

7 minutes ago, bigfella2 said:

You can't test a battery with a multimeter, it needs to be load tested or tested with battery analyser.

Apart from as garbadly mentioned above, you can also measure the minimum voltage when turning the engine over. The huge load from the starter motor is an effective load dump on the cells. Below 10v it'll be suspect, below 9v it's buggered.

[JJ0063]

33 minutes ago, garbaldy said:

Any battery that doesn't chuck out 10 volts on cracking isn't long to this world.

The 17 year old who did the battery test outside Halfords hooked up his machine, pressed a few buttons and said it’s showing as being healthy and has loads of charge however what you mention there makes me wonder still. 

You can see on the below live data that with the ignition off it was sat at around 11.5v, cranking it dips to 8.88v then once the alternator kicks in when it’s running it plateaus at 14.6v

 

[Bren]

11.5 v suggests to me that battery is heavily discharged - likewise the cranking voltage.

You may find the first cold snap will see it off.

At least the alternator appears to be OK.

[JJ0063]

3 minutes ago, Bren said:

11.5 v suggests to me that battery is heavily discharged - likewise the cranking voltage.

You may find the first cold snap will see it off.

At least the alternator appears to be OK.

I wonder if it is perhaps the battery causing it, as I don’t commute any longer the car sometimes sits 2-3 days without being touched whereas Friday, Saturday and today I’ve used it multiple times a day and covered probably 200 miles and it’s started fine each time. I’m also doing a 200 mile round trip tomorrow so it’ll get plenty of charge.. I’ll be interested to see if when I go back to work Tuesday then unlikely to touch it until the weekend, whether it plays up again. 

[JJ0063]

I’m convinced it’s the battery now. Yet again another day where it’s started instantly every time as it’s been used every day. 

I did a 198 mile round trip today and when I got home I checked the battery voltage and it was 12.6v with just the ignition on. I’m back to work tomorrow so the car won’t be used until the weekend, I’ll have to check the voltage again then. 

[RoverFolkUs]

Where in the country are you?

That battery is fucked. 

It should technically not drop below 10.5v cranking. 10v is acceptable, anything below 10v you're going to start getting issues. 

11.5v with the engine off with a load of accessories on is ok, as long as it jumps up to at least 12.2 when you turn them off. Its slightly drained though.

A drop to ~8v indicates a bad cell.

Halfords battery test - what does "loads of charge mean"? What did he use to come to that conclusion? In any case - the charge is somewhat irrelevant. It will be charged up well as the alternator is fine and you've just driven it there.

If you fully charge a battery, the "charge" will show up as 100% on a tester but its the CCA that matters, it could be 50% which will be no good.

I'd be more interested in the CCA rating of the battery, and compared to the CCA readout determined by a load test

A battery can only be load tested when fully charged. So take it for a nice ~30 minute run and then switch the headlights on for 1 minute and then get it load tested. 

Maybe Halfords was a bad suggestion on my part, but it doesn't matter where you take it. Just need someone to properly use the proper kit. 

12v glowplugs aren't going to work properly while cranking if the voltage is dropping to ~8v. I suspect in reality much lower given the latency experienced by the scanner/module you are interrogating there.

Not sure if you've got 12v or 5v glowplugs there off the top of my head

Couple low voltage supply to the glowplugs and slow cranking its no wonder its starting and running like shit when left for a while

All you need is for someone to hook up the fully charged battery with one of these machines, input the CCA rating, declare its over 0C/-32F and press enter:

 

 

[RoverFolkUs]

Fun fact:

I know someone whose battery light came on so they took it to Halfords.

Spotty yoof replaced the battery but the light didn't go away

Aforementioned spotty yoof assured him it'll reset itself after a few miles when its all charged up

Surprisingly* the light did not go away and the battery soon went flat again

I then take a look (god knows why he didnt just ask me in the first place, suppose he was trying to be nice but I dont mind!)

Rather predictably, the auxiliary belt was nowhere to be seen...

Fantastic!

[RoverFolkUs]

Just found a perfect example

This is an almost new battery fitted (in crisis) to my MK2 Focus last year.

"Plenty of charge" there  - 100%

But the CCA rating is 77% - 426 on a 550 battery.

Realistically that's still plenty enough for an old petrol Focus but I'm less than impressed.

I dont think it'll outlive its 3 year warranty period before it starts playing up

So proof of concept, just because its got plenty of charge means eff all!

[JJ0063]

On 9/19/2022 at 10:53 PM, RoverFolkUs said:

Where in the country are you?

That battery is fucked. 

It should technically not drop below 10.5v cranking. 10v is acceptable, anything below 10v you're going to start getting issues. 

11.5v with the engine off with a load of accessories on is ok, as long as it jumps up to at least 12.2 when you turn them off. Its slightly drained though.

A drop to ~8v indicates a bad cell.

Halfords battery test - what does "loads of charge mean"? What did he use to come to that conclusion? In any case - the charge is somewhat irrelevant. It will be charged up well as the alternator is fine and you've just driven it there.

If you fully charge a battery, the "charge" will show up as 100% on a tester but its the CCA that matters, it could be 50% which will be no good.

I'd be more interested in the CCA rating of the battery, and compared to the CCA readout determined by a load test

A battery can only be load tested when fully charged. So take it for a nice ~30 minute run and then switch the headlights on for 1 minute and then get it load tested. 

Maybe Halfords was a bad suggestion on my part, but it doesn't matter where you take it. Just need someone to properly use the proper kit. 

12v glowplugs aren't going to work properly while cranking if the voltage is dropping to ~8v. I suspect in reality much lower given the latency experienced by the scanner/module you are interrogating there.

Not sure if you've got 12v or 5v glowplugs there off the top of my head

Couple low voltage supply to the glowplugs and slow cranking its no wonder its starting and running like shit when left for a while

All you need is for someone to hook up the fully charged battery with one of these machines, input the CCA rating, declare its over 0C/-32F and press enter:

 

 

Sorry I’ve only just seen your replies!

Really appreciate the efforts you’ve gone to explaining it - I don’t know much about batteries I must admit! 
 

I’m in Norfolk

I fully agree with what you’re saying, it all makes sense. I’ve ended up having to use the car every day this week and it’s started instantly every time - I suppose the 200 mile trip on Monday gave it a good charge and that’s been maintained by using it daily since.

I’d be fairly confident in saying that if I left it untouched for a few days it’d drop the charge and play up again.

 

Matey at Halfords couldn’t see the CCA as the sticker was on the side so he went indoors and came back again so not sure if he had to go and look it up.

The battery doesn’t look old but it’s only a Lion which I know aren’t reviewed well, and the car had also been sat in the guys garage unused from November to June when I bought it so I dare say that propbably didn’t help matters. 
 

I’ll order a decent brand 096 AGM when I get paid and I’m sure that’ll sort it for winter.

[JJ0063]

Just went to ATS as I know the guys down there. They put one of those testers on and it passed everything, he did the test where I started the engine with the tester connected too. 
 

Annoyingly the machine had run out of paper so he couldn’t do a print out. 
 

He said they’ve had VW’s with the same issue before and it’s been not the battery but a draw on it so when left parked up it’s draining it. He seemed to think it’s a common issue on this platform with the Bluetooth/stereo or something. I’ll have to have a look online and see if there’s anything.

Im still convinced it’s the battery. Another thing I had completely forgotten is that even when I first bought it, the start/stop has never worked - just says “start stop error” on the dash. There’s no fault codes and it has the correct battery (096 AGM 760EN) and I know the start stop not working is one of the first signs of a knackered battery. 

[cobblers]

Those battery testers that halfords have are absolutely shite. They are no substitute for a proper load test. I used to work there!

To overly simply things, Instead of measuring the voltage drop at 250A for ten seconds to properly simulate real life usage, they measure the drop at 0.25A for a split second and then extrapolate from there (and make some huge assumptions) to work out what would happen at a high load.

In many cases, it's a valid measurement, but very often it's not an accurate assessment of the battery health. 

[Noel Tidybeard]

5 year guarantee

https://www.tayna.co.uk/car-batteries/enduroline/096-agm/

[JJ0063]

40 minutes ago, Noel Tidybeard said:

5 year guarantee

https://www.tayna.co.uk/car-batteries/enduroline/096-agm/

Yeah I’d actually had a look at that earlier, slightly cheaper with my trade card as can save on postage

 

[bigfella2]

4 hours ago, JJ0063 said:

There’s no fault codes and it has the correct battery (096 AGM 760EN) and I know the start stop not working is one of the first signs of a knackered battery. 

The 096 AGM 760EN, is that what it says on the battery or is that what it says on vcds?

Because you will have to code any new battery, but who's to say it's a replacement  battery but never been coded so still has the info stored via vcds of the original battery.

[JJ0063]

3 minutes ago, bigfella2 said:

The 096 AGM 760EN, is that what it says on the battery or is that what it says on vcds?

Because you will have to code any new battery, but who's to say it's a replacement  battery but never been coded so still has the info stored via vcds of the original battery.

That’s what the actual battery says on it, I’ll have to check on VCDS👍

[PhilA]

Yeah, lead acid batteries are weird in the way they work, but you can still approximate their behavior to an air tank full of pressure.

A new air tank you can pump up to, say, 200 psi. Twist open the valve slightly and it'll let air out at a decent rate but the pressure will hardly drop. Open it wide and you'll get a massive amount of air and a bit of a drop in pressure. That's because the tank holds a large amount of air. 

However, if the tank gets filled with a contaminant- let's say rusty dirt- you can still pump it up to 200 psi and if you open the valve ever so sightly you'll still get the same small flow and negligible pressure loss. Open it up more and it will "run out of steam" much more quickly with a significant drop in pressure.

If you want to be really pedantic, consider the inside of the pressure tank to be full of dense foam, through which it takes a finite time for the air to travel. If you rapidly drain off the air then close the valve, it'll take a little while for the air to move and equalize the tank again, which is why at the terminal you will read the battery voltage climb a little after cranking the engine over. 

But yeah, your symptoms sound like a failed battery and those handheld testers don't pass nearly enough current when testing to make even a halfway decent judgement on the condition of a battery, outside of one that's absolutely kippered.

[JJ0063]

Now I’ve changed the plugs and have used the car a lot more, it’s starting lovely now. 
 

It has made me wonder whether perhaps I actually need a diesel car these days with how little I use it. In the back of my mind I’m wondering whether to change the battery and do a couple of jobs (it needs one of the height sensors for the dynamic suspension and very occasionally it throws a fault for the cam sensor so il replace that too) then flog it.

I’ve still got a massive itch for an E36 coupe, even Mrs JJ was saying the other day how now we have her little fiesta, her car is fine if we need to go on longer trips or whatnot. 
 

We’ll see. I can’t really be bothered but I don’t have any other hobbies!

[JJ0063]

Late night browsing is dangerous, but yes it’s time for a Boston green E36…

[JJ0063]

Just an update that this has started beautifully every time since I did the long journey to Essex and back. 
 

It was also a day or two after I did the glow plugs so I’m still not sure whether it was the plugs or if the battery had got a bit low. I’ve been using it regularly so I guess the battery is being kept topped up at the minute - I’m sure winter will finish it off if it is that. 

[JJ0063]

Got offered a swap today for a 2 owner, 39k miles E36 coupe… said no as was only a 316i and SE spec..

[RoverFolkUs]

Only just noticed your last reply seeing your thread pop up - back to the battery issue - if it's only playing up after being left for a while I'd reckon it's got to be a battery related issue. 

The difficulty you have is 

A - the limitations of the handheld testers as mentioned by others above

B - you've just driven over to the place for the test which would have nicely charged it up

Maybe the battery is fine and there is a drain that's depleting it 🤷 - then it's just fine in regular use 🤔

Either way, please don't buy a Halfords battery if you do end up getting one! Enduroline seems dubious to me but the 5 year guarantee makes it worth it

Halfords are on par with Lion. Fortunately Lion batteries aren't made any more. Well, they're just branded as Starline now and have been made trade only. So hopefully less of the poxy things will be in circulation!

It would need to be reprogrammed for stop start as said above

[bigfella2]

I thought Halfords batteries were made by yuasa maybe @cobblerscan tell us as he had a stint there.

Not convinced it's necessarily the battery at fault here, if the battery has been changed and not coded to the car then it won't charge it properly. Hence some of the problems here. But @JJ0063never answered the question above to say if the battery fitted to the car had been coded?

[Noel Tidybeard]

tayna seem confident in enduroline

[Wack]

On 1/24/2022 at 10:43 PM, bangernomics said:

Isn’t the 190 name just like Audi 80/100 just a model designation?

I've seen audis with 30 TFSI and 40 TFSI 

I assumed they were the hot versions 3.0 & 4.0

30 is a 1.0 L engine 

40 a 2.0 L 

[New POD]

Me too. 

[JJ0063]

7 hours ago, bigfella2 said:

  @JJ0063never answered the question above to say if the battery fitted to the car had been coded?

Unfortunately my laptop died also I don’t currently have VCDS and Carly only allows battery coding options for BMW so I don’t actually know the answer 

Since changing the glow plugs and using the car more it’s been absolutely fine every time so I’m not worrying about it for the time being 

[Dave_Q]

Another vote for just buy a battery, the 14.6v tested is the alternator not the battery.

That cranking voltage in your video is too low, the assorted computers that fire the injectors and whatnot are at risk of not doing at that voltage.