project 1968 MG Midget - Bodywork repair and welding

[SiC]

On 6/1/2022 at 7:47 PM, bangernomics said:

Could it get any worse?

As I've found out tonight...

Riveted


Fillered


Braised


Rogue MIG wire


Filler in places that don't make sense. You can't see this with the panel on


Removed with a flat headed screwdriver to prise off the braze and unpenetrated welds.


At least I have decent access.


This bit I think is actually welded with some penetration.


At least these piss poor attempts at fixing the panels make it really easy to remove them.

It's now time to get back inside to have a shower to wash off my hair full of filler.

 

[SiC]

In other news, part of my big Moss order came in today. Still more to come. Thankfully the Audi is here until this weekend, making it easier to sneak these big bits into the garage. Not sure I'd have got it in the Boxster.

[SiC]

I'm hoping (literally) pulling this all off and replacing it with this panel will be the quicker way to do it. Otherwise I'd be welding up the arch top, rear quarter and lower front of this panel.


This panel I think is identical to what is coming off too. So hopefully it should be an easy and direct fit.

[SiC]

I see another trip to Moss again in the near future. Again it is braised on with a couple of poor welds.


Filler hiding the join on the inside.


Filler also on the inside. Weirdly against fresh metal.


There's this big repair patch on the inside of the arch.


Again fuggin' braised. If it was badly welded I could have run new beads but as it's braised, I need to take it all off to redo.


The other side of the repair panel is one huge thick chunk of filler. This is one of the mounting areas for the soft top. No wonder the filler has cracked.



Hey ho

[busmansholiday]

Jesus, I bet you wished you'd not had that itch to own a midget now. What's the chances the other side is just as bad ?a

[SiC]

1 hour ago, busmansholiday said:

Jesus, I bet you wished you'd not had that itch to own a midget now. What's the chances the other side is just as bad ?a

I do wish I saw it and not bought sight unseen! Tbh if I knew the previous owner had only bought it a few months before, I'd not have bought it either. He didn't transfer the V5 and so I didn't know this. When asked, he said it was his sons originally but he took it on. 

Other side I suspect has had a similar treatment. I can see that it's been replaced as see the overlap on the panel on the backside. Panel is in better condition so should be able to take off the filler and run a few beads. 

This had previously been restored to be a shiny car quite a few years ago. It's a good reminder that many of these expensive shiny cars you see in dealers, look like this underneath!

[SiC]

20 minutes ago, SiC said:

This had previously been restored to be a shiny car quite a few years ago. It's a good reminder that many of these expensive shiny cars you see in dealers, look like this underneath!

I think this is a good example that I saw the other day. Went from this:

 

To this in 14 days. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125339383938

I mean it might have been done to a good standard in that time. But I'd be surprised. 

It also went from £1200 to £4995 between those two sales.

[Back_For_More]

I'm wondering when braising was the preferred method as I'm finding various bits done on the P6 too. They are solid and a bitch to remove but are over the initial shit and of course it just got worse in the meantime.

Once you're balls deep there's no turning back when you have a conscience sadly. I had it with the Spitfire and to cap it all I just didn't gel with it once I'd finished all the work.....

Have you been out in a comparable Midget to see how it feels etc? So you know it'll be worth it in the end.

Good luck with the work and the digging....... brings back memories 🙄

[cobblers]

afaik brazing isn't a bad shout for joining body panels, like where you'd be "tack tack tacking", but you need decent surface area for a joint so you can't butt them up, they need an overlap

[SiC]

1 hour ago, Back_For_More said:

Have you been out in a comparable Midget to see how it feels etc? So you know it'll be worth it in the end.

Haha! Nope. 😳

[SiC]

2 hours ago, cobblers said:

afaik brazing isn't a bad shout for joining body panels, like where you'd be "tack tack tacking", but you need decent surface area for a joint so you can't butt them up, they need an overlap

It was the standard repair technique for the a lot of the pre-80s and even pre-90s apparently. My dad used to weld stuff with oxy-ac in the 70s but that was only because he access to the kit at work and was allowed to work on his own stuff during his own time. He mentioned to me that most braised back then. 

This stuff has been overlapped - massive overlap. Tbf the braised joints seem stronger than many of the welds. Some welds are good but many are not. Thankfully most so far that this person has worked on wasn't main structural. Just outer body.

A-post was structural and welded. Crap welds and some people off - but not all. Probably why it didn't fall apart when it was driven.

I guess also the years of use, vibration and flex will have weaken any brazed joints and shit welds too? 

[busmansholiday]

4 hours ago, SiC said:

This had previously been restored to be a shiny car quite a few years ago. It's a good reminder that many of these expensive shiny cars you see in dealers, look like this underneath!

I've a very strong feeling that my MGB Roadster is exactly the same. I've had to weld quite a bit underneath that was wob and underseal. 

[SiC]

Still cracking on with this but been flat out busy so haven't had a chance to do a write up.

It's currently looking a bit of a mess right now.


Even my work area is a mess. This is after tidying it too!


Have all the panels to complete this bit with now though. Plus will have a few patches to go in too. I just need to start welding them in.


I've got a few more bits from Moss to arrive still, hopefully now I should have everything I need now both mechanical, interior and bodywork. Except maybe anything else bodywork side on the drivers side. Hopefully not as much as this side! I definitely can't pick that side this time...

[SiC]

After cutting more and more pieces off on this, it has been looking in a sorry state. This is previous to taking all the paint off the wing the other week but gives a good idea on how much removed. Basically as much post factory repairs as I could.


This weekend I've managed to get a shed load of work done on it. So much so, I'll document each section separately as I don't think I'll be able to fit it in one post.

First off is the rear section. I've been debating whether to cut this off. This is definitely not factory nor was it welded in properly. However removing it I feared I'd change the profile.




In the end I decided to just rip it off. I have a repair panel I already bought anyway. Think it was only a tenner. Absolute bargain considering it's not a simple piece either.


I also cleaned this brace up to weld. It had been welded the otherside but I didn't trust it's strength.



Repair panel clamped in place with the brace welded.


Repair panel welded.


Then a quick run over with the grinder to clean off the welds.

[SiC]

Rear of sill was a mess. I got this repair piece off someone local who was restoring an even older midget.

Cut off old. You can see the big holes in this.


Tacked repair piece on. Also added some extra metal for the top. This piece is slightly smaller as it's supposed to fit on the inside of the end of the sill. Should be no difference in strength though as this is the end of the sill. 


Welded and ground back.

[SiC]

Remember this?



I smashed it out completely.


Turns out that a Rimmer's Dolomite inner wheel repair panel actually fits better on a Midget!



Welded that on. I actually welded on this at the top too but not taken a photo of that.



The other side was made of a large oversized patch. I cut this off and cleaned up underneath.


A replacement patch then went on. I'll drill a hole to wax inject this area.


Other side of the wheel arch there was another patch repair. Like the others this was badly welded and brazed. I remove the braise with a grinding disc. Then rewelded as a proper seam.


I forgot to take a picture after but I did get penetration through. Even if this meant ruining the paint in the boot.

[SiC]

Tacked the arch repair panel on. This actually is supposed to be an outer repair panel but all the retailers reckon it can be used for the inner arch too. Slightly different profile but you can't see it once the outer panel is on. Plus a new arch is complete (so requires more cutting up) and £150. This was £45.


Outer panel checked for alignment and then seam welded all the way around.


It left a hole in the front. This was previously patched but I cut that out. Unfortunately I again forgot to take a picture of it finished. I'll try updating this tomorrow with one.
The bottom has a slit out to take the outer panel properly.


Cleaned off the welded. I went right back as this will be covered with the outer panel and I didn't want it pushing that out when aligning.



Then run over with a scotchbrite and spray with paint. This can be black as it'll be hidden with the outer panel.


Been making a repair panel to go here. I won't weld it on until the outer panel is on. I want access to weld that down on the inside too.


The next big job is to get this panel on. It's large and has many bits that need clamping into place before affixing. I need to also go carefully to not put too much heat in and ruin it. If I do ruin it, it's easy to get a replacement but at £180 I really don't want to.

I've test fitted alignment as I've gone along with the inner panels. It's almost there just needs some slight fettling. The front on the sill by the door has a large gap. This did bug me but after checking both the other side and other Midgets at shows that have been restored, it's normal. I think its a consequence of these Steelcraft aftermarket panels. There are heritage panels which should be more accurate but they are much larger and twice the price.
Again my key aim here is to make it solid and ready for the road this year. Certainly not concourse and neither A1. But should be more than passable car, up reasonably close.

Once this big panel is on, this side is complete on the body. The front wing needs work but that's removable and can be done later if I really wish. I'm going to attempt a repair but if too much work or ends messy, I think I'll source a second hand replacement wing. It's bolt on so no biggy. 

[mk2_craig]

Just been catching up on this, amazing how things escalate when you start investigating!! Have you much else that’s going to want significant attention before you can call it usable?

[SiC]

4 hours ago, mk2_craig said:

Just been catching up on this, amazing how things escalate when you start investigating!! Have you much else that’s going to want significant attention before you can call it usable?

It's a bit like an onion. You start peeling off the layers and you find even more! From the top of my head...

I've got the other side to look at next. Less rust thankfully but no doubt similar shit welds. Not sure how much I want to start digging through that just yet though. However the sensible thing would be to leave as is and just drive the car! Paint is peeled off so do need to get some on to protect it. It's tempting to strip off all the paint (+filler) and go from there. But as the panel isn't rusted, I could always clean off any of the braised joints and reweld them instead. Saves the cost of panels.

The floors have been replaced at some point and probably at the same point as the other panels. I have kicked them and those welds haven't given way. But I still may clean up areas and run a few beads to be completely sure. 

Paint will need sorting but there isn't really a budget for it to be done professionally. Plan so far is likely rattle can as best as I can. Potentially taken down the side fence so I could spray it in the garden. If I do that, I can use my big compressor - garage power isn't currently meaty enough to run it. Tbh if I was having it done professionally, it'd be worth for a complete strip down for a full respray and think I might change the colour. Probably damask red or vermilion would be favourites. 

Apart from bodywork there is a few other things that need going through.

Brake parts all look reasonably new in the last 10yrs from looking through the receipts except maybe the driver's side flexi and master. There is a fluid leak from the masters into the footwell. Not sure if this is the brake or clutch. However as both are the original style cans and are looking a bit sad, I'll replace both. Likewise I'll replace the clutch slave as a matter of course. 

Fuel system I need to replace the hoses as perished but also I'll go E10 safe - easy job. Pump looks to be a modern Hardi and seems to be happy pumping, so I'll leave that. Maybe blast air through to make sure there is no crud. Receipts show work done on the carbs, so they will probably just get the dashpots taken off for a clean-up. I have spare float valves but they have said to be replaced too. I've a new sender for the fuel tank and the tank is awaiting painting. Hopefully I can get away with not replacing the tank. Some surface rust and pitting on top but apart from the repair I did, nothing has gone through. 

Accelerator pedal is the original piano style type. The linkage on the back is broken and ropey. I've ordered a replacement pedal assembly from the later 1500 which is a more traditional style pedal as used on everything else from the era. Backordered so not sure when that'll arrive. Accelerator cable needs replacing too. 

Seat covers aren't in bad shape but the foam is knackered. I've already got new foam, back boards and webbing to rebuild them. That's a nice little job to do. Maybe even rope my wife in to do that. 

Other than that, I'll give it a tune-up with fresh oil+filter, air filters, plugs, leads, points and cap+rotor. It was running badly when I got it home but given the state of the fuel, air filters, and ignition system, it's no surprise!

Providing I don't need any more panels, I've pretty much got everything I need now (except paint)! What I've spent, I probably could have bought one that needed a lot less work... (But unlikely the older, big bumper like this though)

Still the target is to have it back on the road before the end of summer. Really would like to get some proper use of it this year. 

[GingerNuttz]

Turned into a fair bit of work that little motor, looks bang on now tho.

[SiC]

1 hour ago, GingerNuttz said:

Turned into a fair bit of work that little motor, looks bang on now tho.

Thanks!

It's been an absolute joy to work on. Panels are easy to get, cheap (Ashley Hinton are a bargain) and excellent fit with virtually no reworking needed. Construction is simple and straightforward without many layers. Being a small car, pretty much everything is easily handled and clamped up within an arm's reach. 

While I would have liked to have got it on the road sooner, I can't say it's been all that bad as the weather has been pretty rubbish recently for the most part anyway. 

After having the Sprite Mk1 Frogeye rental, I'm definitely on the lookout for one. Inevitably my budget will be for a Meccano example. Panels aren't as accurate, easy or cheap to get hold on the Frogeyes but they are mostly available. I mean a rear wing is like £750 and a Steel Frogeye clamshell is a cool £4370...! But then they're worth significantly more and much rarer than any of the Midgets. I've driven cars that attract attention but nothing like that Frogeye did. Always positive too. Cracking fun to drive too. 

I'd like to drive one back to back with this. I know they are very different in character as the rear end is setup very differently. Sprite Mk1/2 & Midget MK1 has these quarter elliptical springs where as everything after has semi. The quarter gives much stiffer suspension. Hit a bump on them and the back lifts (alarmingly!), but you then get the stiffer backend. The semi elliptical setup is supposed to loose that stiffness but you gain a more compliant and friendlier (mass market) ride. 

[GingerNuttz]

20 minutes ago, SiC said:

Thanks!

It's been an absolute joy to work on. Panels are easy to get, cheap (Ashley Hinton are a bargain) and excellent fit with virtually no reworking needed. Construction is simple and straightforward without many layers. Being a small car, pretty much everything is easily handled and clamped up within an arm's reach. 

While I would have liked to have got it on the road sooner, I can't say it's been all that bad as the weather has been pretty rubbish recently for the most part anyway. 

After having the Sprite Mk1 Frogeye rental, I'm definitely on the lookout for one. Inevitably my budget will be for a Meccano example. Panels aren't as accurate, easy or cheap to get hold on the Frogeyes but they are mostly available. I mean a rear wing is like £750 and a Steel Frogeye clamshell is a cool £4370...! But then they're worth significantly more and much rarer than any of the Midgets. I've driven cars that attract attention but nothing like that Frogeye did. Always positive too. Cracking fun to drive too. 

I'd like to drive one back to back with this. I know they are very different in character as the rear end is setup very differently. Sprite Mk1/2 & Midget MK1 has these quarter elliptical springs where as everything after has semi. The quarter gives much stiffer suspension. Hit a bump on them and the back lifts (alarmingly!), but you then get the stiffer backend. The semi elliptical setup is supposed to loose that stiffness but you gain a more compliant and friendlier (mass market) ride. 

Shouldn't take much to finish now it's back is broke. 

When I restored a few MGB's the panels seemed quite good, didn't need to do to much fucking about to get most of them to fit.

[PhilA]

I'm told the square arch cars have that shape due to the additional metal stiffening the tub flex up (look at the side profile of a Midget at the rear axle, then mentally slice through it like a block of butter and you'll see just how thin the car gets (vertically) at that point.

[SiC]

19 minutes ago, PhilA said:

I'm told the square arch cars have that shape due to the additional metal stiffening the tub flex up (look at the side profile of a Midget at the rear axle, then mentally slice through it like a block of butter and you'll see just how thin the car gets (vertically) at that point.

I believe it's also why the round arch Frogeye with no boot went to square arch on Midget MK2 with boot. 

[SiC]

Now you mention it @PhilA, I think I'm going to put the wheels back on and drop it to the floor before welding that panel on. Just to let it settle naturally incase being up on stands is putting a slight bend in the body. 

[GMcD]

Some amazing work going on there Si. Your workmanship and work rate put me to shame! 

[PhilA]

23 minutes ago, SiC said:

Now you mention it @PhilA, I think I'm going to put the wheels back on and drop it to the floor before welding that panel on. Just to let it settle naturally incase being up on stands is putting a slight bend in the body. 

Good idea, my father said his, at just a few years old with no rust would be discontent opening and closing the doors if you had it jacked up. It's a very flexible car.

He also warned to never drive it without the doors on and closed - they even need to be latched properly else the door apertures close up as the car bends in the middle. The doors are remarkably structural.

[SiC]

19 minutes ago, PhilA said:

my father said his, at just a few years old with no rust

When are you over next so we can get your dads Sprite back on the road? 😃

[PhilA]

4 minutes ago, SiC said:

When are you over next so we can get your dads Sprite back on the road? 😃

That's a $64,000 question. I have no idea.

[SiC]

Last night was a no bodywork evening. After two days of constant cutting, welding and grinding, I fancied something different.

First job was to get the wheels back on and car on the floor. Noticed that the tyres are cracking up now and will need replacing. Date coded 2004, so getting on a bit. They're only cheap shite too.




While there is no side panel on the rear, it was a good time to adjust the boot latch. Did the best I could but the mechanism is pretty worn and keeps catching from the amount of play in it. I expected the catch to move directly with the handle. Instead it is spring loaded and flicks closed and open. While nifty this doesn't help it when worn!



Next up was to look at the heating control. On these there is a pull control that opens/closes airflow and a tap on the block to allow/inhibit water flow through the matrix. I haven't touched the tap as they are prone to seizing and I don't want to touch the water system just yet. I'll replace the tap soon though as the coolant will inevitably need replacing and flushing through.

However the bigger problem is the heater control is seized and stuck. This should pull in and out to control airflow through the matrix. It also has a switch for the blower fan. There is a manual override switch on the dash too, so I know the fan works. But the control not working is annoying me!

I removed the linkage and verified that the arm to the blower flap moved. Next was to remove the fresh air tube from the blower to the front of the car. These are currently unobtainium and so I wanted to be really careful to not damage it. Not least it stops fumes getting in the cabin, so I don't want to split it.


A lot of swearing and twisting got it free.


While I had my head in the footwell, I had a poke of the wing. Thankfully this side is in excellent condition. As it's only the near side wing that really needs repairing, I'm getting quite keen to perhaps just replace it with a known good.


The dashboard side is a standard Lucas lock ring. I really ought to splash out for the proper tool to undo these so I don't risk damaging the dash from screwdriver slippage.


Once undone, I turned the assembly around in place to find the holding pin for the knob. Pushing this in allowed it to pull off.



Once off I removed it from the dash. The wires are soldered on the switch but have bullet connectors onto the wiring loom.


This assembly with the switch is complete No Longer Available. Sometimes the cables come up and are remanufactured but currently none available. Plus it's cheaper and more original if this can be fixed.


With it removed, I wanted to remove the inner cable. Copious amounts of graphite lube spray got things starting to move. I also cleaned off the rust at the end of the inner cable too.

In the end, I decided against completely removing the inner as I feared it would be a fight and risked damaging the unobtainable outer. I did however get the cable pulled out slightly more to give more room to spray lube down.

To do this, you pull the control out partially and then use a screwdriver or similar to poke the cable to push it out. Originally I thought the hole was to be lined up with the retaining end. But that ball won't go out in that position. So it needs to be partially pulled instead.



The knob still has a very faint H still on it. Some of the sunken area is worn off though. I'm tempted to give this a repaint but not quite sure what paint I should use. There is Humbrel and such but I don't know how long lasting that will be.


The switch actually seems to work fine. I did have some confusion as it only operates when the knob is fully pushed in. With no drivers manual, I haven't read how it works. I presumed fully pushed in would be off - like a choke, wipers or light switch. Instead it actually is fully open when pushed in. Hence the motor can only be run if the airflow flap is fully open.


Also my o-rings for the dash clocks came today. I did order some from Moss but they've been backordered for ages. These were some generic o-rings off eBay. The 100mm gauge has a 97mm o-ring and the 52mm gauge has a 51.5mm. Despite being stated those sizes (i.e. 100mm and 52mm), they are actually a tad smaller.



I also took the time to remove the AA badge. This is a 1959 badge according to the AA website. Personally I think they look naff, even though this isn't a reproduction.


Speaking of paint and badges, the MG grille logo is looking a bit sad. Might have to figure how to pull it apart and repaint it at some point.