Manchester clean air zone May 2022

[Ghosty]

1 hour ago, Spurious said:

As far as I can see it includes areas like this on the North East top of the zone. Seems well thought out, no?

A lot of the space on the west side of the zone is rather empty too. 

I think the zone is so excessively large, so that in future they can use the M60 as a ULEZ type border, and areas like the above are included so all parts of the zone are a certain distance from the M60?

The large empty area on the west might be intended to balance out the air quality around M60 J15 - the UK's widest motorway junction, on the west side of the M60... 

[Dave_Q]

The border of the zone is just Greater Manchester innit, so rather than having lots of tedious arguments about whether Rochdale or Timperley or Bredbury get clean air or not, they've just gone all out and gone for the whole thing.

[sierraman]

4 hours ago, Dead_E23 said:

Also, the banks hate cash because it is heavy and bulky and generally a pain in the ass to deal with what with counting it, all the security, having to physically transport it etc. 

 A friend in the banking industry is involved in the move to getting rid of cash and says cash is even worse than cheques in terms of cost to process. That surprised me too.

A while back it was considered a trial that small businesses acted almost like cash dispensers and claimed a commission, kind of like going to the barbers or whatever, getting £50 out from there without needing to make an actual purchase in a cashback sense, they get 1% from it and it keeps their cash balance suitably low enough to not need to keep popping into the bank or whatnot, but in the end the Post Office was kept on as a cash shop. 

If you’ve a business you pay a set % on change orders likewise for deposit, cheaper tariffs if you take cards but realistically not that cheap enough to dissuade a garage or whatever taking 50% through books and 50% in the hand. All that turned to shit with Covid with these grants/loans etc as they based in on your turnover. 

[Bren]

6 hours ago, yes oui si said:

Luckily a small group of plucky oil industry billionaires is exposing climate change for the lie it is, right? 

Don't worry about the oil billionaires - we still need plastics.

[willswitchengage]

This looks a bit daft when you consider that London, which has a far greater congestion and commensurate pollution problem, has only settled for an all-vehicle ULEZ within the outer circle (for non-locals this is about half way between the city centre and M25) and a wider LEZ which sounds like LESBIAN just short of the metro limits, which broadly correlates with where suburbia ends and countryside begins. The Manc one looks like half of Lancashire and Cheshire is included.

On the plus side, plenty more chod availability for the eBay thread.

[Ghosty]

24 minutes ago, willswitchengage said:

On the plus side, plenty more chod availability for the eBay thread.

Vans only for now, and there's not been any chod here for several years, 99% of cars here are financed Skodas, BMWs and Mercs. 

[Matty]

Not at my house pal 😆

[Blake's Den]

7 hours ago, martc said:

The Hull to Manchester line was going to be electrified, but this was cancelled due to 'costs'. Cancelled after they had upgraded all the signalling for the modern, electric trains, which are now not going to use the line. So expect smokin' diesels coming into the middle of Manchester for years to come. See also the 'Hope' line from Sheffield.

But they squander squillions on HS2. Northern Powerhouse my arse.

Not 100% correct.

The route from Man Vic to Leeds has a strong business case for full electrification. If this doesn't happen then partial electrification will take place.

[catsinthewelder]

10 hours ago, sierraman said:

Despite all this we are wasting Christ knows how much on HS2, a rail link so you can get to London 20 minutes quicker, by the time that’s built the cost of the tickets will be prohibitive. Here’s a thought, scrap HS2 and spend the money fixing to local rail network. 

HS2 is the answer to a question nobody had asked. 

But HS2 is about more capacity.  By taking most of the fast trains off the existing north/south mainlines it leaves more space for local stopping services and freight.

There isn't enough space on the existing network for future demand but fiddling about with minor improvements here and there isn't going to be enough.  It needs a network of new lines like we built new motorways in the 50s and 60s.

Back on topic I generally support low emission zones in city centres.  It strikes me that it's them or serious restrictions on old vehicle use nationwide.  This is something else though and is a rather worrying development.  If nothing else it's not on making an LEZ  that covers part of the motorway network, yes discourage people from driving into cities but let us drive past them.

[Fumbler]

16 minutes ago, catsinthewelder said:

Back on topic I generally support low emission zones in city centres.  It strikes me that it's them or serious restrictions on old vehicle use nationwide.  This is something else though and is a rather worrying development.  If nothing else it's not on making an LEZ  that covers part of the motorway network, yes discourage people from driving into cities but let us drive past them.

Indeed, forcing people to divert off the the motorway so they don't need to pay the fee does sound counter-intuitive and the opposite of what the motorway was originally designed for.

[Jerzy Woking]

For those not convinced of the harm of whatever shit is in the air. Bike parked at work in the LEZ in Lower Thames Street in that there London. I used to put a new white cover over each work bike every 6 weeks (thank you KTM), because by then they had gone grey, had a sticky coating on them, and they smelt revolting. Nasty if this is what gets into your lungs.

I don't know what tfl do with the money they collect for LEZ as whatever they spend on reducing pollution/cleaning the air is not enough. My former colleagues tell me the bike covers still need changing after 6 weeks. So three years on, no change.

10 hours ago, St.Jude said:

 

@sierraman is quite on the money with this I'm afraid @yes oui si. Cash is always king, as it can't really be traced. This pisses off the tax man and the police as it makes their job harder to do. The best thing for either of these is to get transactions to be made in a way that can be recorded. Cashless does this fairly easily, as you have mobile phones, banks, card merchants all involved in the process. 

My old job was finding the bastards that ripped off millions from the VAT and Excise Duties. And yes, some frauds were many many millions.

And we always found lots of cash in the homes and businesses we searched. Large amounts of cash is very difficult to get rid of, can't buy anything of real value with cash, not without it being reported by the trader taking the cash as they don't want it either.

There is a limit to the portions of chips you can buy, how many have haircuts you have and how many times you can wash your car.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

47 minutes ago, catsinthewelder said:

If nothing else it's not on making an LEZ  that covers part of the motorway network, yes discourage people from driving into cities but let us drive past them.

It does say on the MCAZ site that motorways and trunk roads are exempt

[catsinthewelder]

1 minute ago, Mr_Bo11ox said:

It does say on the MCAZ site that motorways and trunk roads are exempt

Thank fuck for that!

Still feel it's a bit too big but rather less upset about it now.

[UltraWomble]

6 hours ago, Dave_Q said:

 Timperley 

Oh my god, I once dated a lass from Timperley.

She could turn the air BLUE

[Wack]

It reads on the front page commercial vehicles but 

Since when is a motorhome for private recreational use a light goods vehicle 

[bangernomics]

We voted no last time they tried this bollox and I’ll be surprised if the turkeys are swayed by it this time.

If it’s a referendum then speaking for north Manchester there’s a lot of vans on driveways and not many are euro 5 never mind 6.

[Dead_E23]

Based on what's happened in London you can be fairly confident that this zone is going to expand over time, both geographically and to include other types of vehicle, and will require progressively tighter emissions standards.   

Due to the expansion of the London LEZ to the North Circular in October, I intend to scrap a perfectly serviceable but scruffy Mondeo which easily has another 100k of life in it upon the expiry of its MOT a month later, and I expect there'll be thousands of older cars with a similar fate.

[bangernomics]

To be fair if it were £60 a day, it would be cheaper to lease a brand new van. And let's be honest the state and age of the van, helps in the identification of professional blaggers who tend to dwell in static caravans. 
But it won't be 60 quid a day. Most days. 
It will be good for the Van industry. Does the UK make vans? 

Not everyone who lives in a static is a blagger. Poor generalisation.

[Jerzy Woking]

26 minutes ago, Dead_E23 said:

Based on what's happened in London you can be fairly confident that this zone is going to expand over time, both geographically and to include other types of vehicle, and will require progressively tighter emissions standards.   

And do fuck all to attain cleaner air with the money they take in from motorists. Probably all gets swallowed up from the costs of administrating it. Pointless as it simply shows the tfl are doing something when it appears they do nothing.

Building cycle lanes is not an answer, especially when it remove one lane of traffic, which then all grinds to a standstill causing stationary vehicles to pump out more noxious fumes.

[New POD]

4 hours ago, bangernomics said:

Not everyone who lives in a static is a blagger. Poor generalisation.

I know this. 

[SiC]

21 hours ago, St.Jude said:

What really grinds my gears with this is that the Manchester and Bristol CLZ's affect commercial vehicles - yet Birmingham being the fucking bread basket it is punishes everyone for it.

Bristol CAZ effects everyone. 

There was two options the council considered. One larger zone for just commercial and a smaller zone for everyone. The smaller zone was deemed to have the most effect of reducing pollution harmful to human health where most people were, the fastest. 

[lisbon_road]

Just a quiet opinion, I like car free city centres most of all. 

They made some small parts of Southampton car free during the pandemic and the newly elected Tory council are trying to open them up to cars again.  This is certainly not universally popular, and hardly in line with government policy. 

We've covered a lot elsewhere how some of the biggest emitting offenders are some earlier Euro 6 diesels and how some of the most dangerous pollution seems to come from the smallest particles from direct injection engines.  Very difficult problems to solve for sure. 

[Tadhg Tiogar]

9 hours ago, Dead_E23 said:

.....Due to the expansion of the London LEZ to the North Circular in October, I intend to ...

...keep on adding tetraethyl lead to the CX's fuel. As I live just outside the expanded ULEZ, the emissions will, likely as not, be carried over the A406 border into the ULEZ.

[bigstraight6]

21 hours ago, Jerzy Woking said:

And do fuck all to attain cleaner air with the money they take in from motorists. Probably all gets swallowed up from the costs of administrating it. Pointless as it simply shows the tfl are doing something when it appears they do nothing.

Building cycle lanes is not an answer, especially when it remove one lane of traffic, which then all grinds to a standstill causing stationary vehicles to pump out more noxious fumes.

Sadistic Khan is doing a wonderful job.

[bangernomics]

I know this. 

But yet you repeatedly slip the same lines in. Try replacing one ethnic group with another and read your own comments again.

[Wack]

If I had a campsite in greater manchester i'd be right pissed off with this , unless you've got 40k to spend your motorhome is going to be euro 5 at best so if I go to a campsite in my euro 5 motorhome for one night @ £20 and park next to a guy with a caravan towed by a 2010 V8 diesel range rover , he's paying £20 to stay and I'm paying £40

Nobody with a euro 5 motorhome will be taking it anywhere in greater manchester

[Spurious]

3 hours ago, Wack said:

If I had a campsite in greater manchester i'd be right pissed off with this , unless you've got 40k to spend your motorhome is going to be euro 5 at best so if I go to a campsite in my euro 5 motorhome for one night @ £20 and park next to a guy with a caravan towed by a 2010 V8 diesel range rover , he's paying £20 to stay and I'm paying £40

Nobody with a euro 5 motorhome will be taking it anywhere in greater manchester

This I think is the most unfair aspect of this. 

Whatever about HGVs and busses but sub 20k won't buy you a modern brand new Euro 6 Motor home. 

Some of the cheaper ones wouldn't even have a euro rating. Should we exclude them for the odd day here and there they enter a zone. 

[willswitchengage]

9 hours ago, Squire_Dawson said:

I agree that vehicle useage should be decreased but quite the opposite is being promoted

Yep. New homes are usually genuinely greener than what they replace in terms of thermal efficiency but these gains are generally neutralised by the fact that they are almost always built in locations where the only practical transport option is the car. They are in non-walkable locations a long way from amenities or employment and generally with zero or a token gesture of awful cycling infrastructure. They are not linked to public transport. Naturally therefore new build owners will be locked into car usage for the duration of the property's existence - which is a long time. Greeny chops here decided to live somewhere where I can walk to the shops and train stations, of course this is a 'ghetto' location not a utopian new build.

In other obvious solutions why don't we scrap the M6 toll? It's empty because of the tolls but would be an overnight win at keeping through traffic out of the West Midlands. It would finally make a white elephant useful.

[Wack]

6 hours ago, willswitchengage said:

.

In other obvious solutions why don't we scrap the M6 toll? It's empty because of the tolls but would be an overnight win at keeping through traffic out of the West Midlands. It would finally make a white elephant useful.

I've thought that since the day they opened it , nobody in a van is using it to get where they're going because through Birmingham and back it's £23 , ridiculous 

[Ghosty]

I don't mind paying for the M6 toll on the grounds I'm paying not to use a smart motorway, but instead, a beautifully maintained, smooth, PROPER motorway, built to the standard all UK motorways should be.