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BL/Rover What Went Wrong?


sierraman

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BL didn’t fail.  The Mini range, plus the Jaguar and Land Rover ranges are big sellers and big exporters .

They span almost every market segment from under £16,000 to over £160,000. Why does it matter who’s name is above the door ?  Tata, BMW, British Aerospace, BL, BMH, BMC, Leyland, None of it means anything , it’s all temporary.

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Just now, sierraman said:

A lot of the cars we were trying to sell to Europe simply didn’t appeal on any level to the buyers there. The Germans for example were not going to consider in any way shape or form a Maestro/Montego over a Golf. I can’t ever recall seeing one in anywhere but the U.K. 

Loads of the bloody things in Bulgaria and Albania, Moldova also has a few.

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14 hours ago, wuvvum said:

The 75 actually handles very well.

I agree though that Burnt Fishtrousers (as Top Gear magazine used to call him) had some very funny ideas about what constituted a British car, which probably didn't do the 75 any favours in terms of market share (although I personally love an early 75 interior).

I would concur with this. Having  owned a 75 for a number of years, I'm toying with another one to add to the fleet. Quite honestly, after that, I ran (company), a pug 307 (gutless), Vectra SRi (just don't), a Prius, a Mokka and a Mercedes GLA. None were and smooth and comfortable on the road as the 75. Only my current 3 series barge comes close.


I drove a saloon recently and was surprised how good it was.

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14 hours ago, willswitchengage said:

Didn't BMW invest £billions in Rover and the company still failed shortly afterwards? I'd argue that they tried very nobly! They didn't exactly 'asset strip' - they'd bought the company, piled money into it, then kept a factory at the end which they subsequently poured even more money into. Mini wasn't even a brand until BMW 'created' it - just a line of cars which had largely run out of steam. Rover failed to realise the value of the brand, BMW invested wisely and were creative, and the rest is history. And if they hadn't, the Mini would have just died away and been just another cute old car like the Renault 4. BMW created a new 'British' global brand for us and rescued a factory. BMW did the best that they could with the assets of a failing company.

BMW sold Land Rover to Ford for a large sum of money, they got the Cowley plant built and Hams Hall. If you believe some people they also offed with a decent chunk of car that became the 1 Series. I'm not suggesting they got out of the whole shit storm smelling of roses but they didn't exactly go broke on it.

However, all of that was just the end game. That was just people scrapping over the carcass.

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15 hours ago, sierraman said:

 It’s quite telling they left MG, a name synonymous with repeatedly awful come backs, the Chinese still using it when anyone over 30 was fully aware it was a brand that made joke cars. Despite this they are still going, hopefully this time when it turns to shit it’ll be put to bed permanently.

I don't think MG are going to go down the pan any day soon - 

MG just missed the top 20, but can derive comfort  – and then some – from volumes that were up by 41 per cent. With sales almost 30 per cent down overall, this must rank as the success story of the year, possibly the decade. The bizarre, almost unbelievable truth is this: the main reason for the massive rise was largely down to MG’s unapologetically humble range of family EVs that are cheap, cheerful, and perfectly adequate for real-world buyers. The Germans, Japanese and Koreans know this, are closely monitoring MG’s pricing strategy, and rapidly trying to find ways to match it. 

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/opinion/354064/mg-sales-2020-will-must-rank-success-story-year-possibly-decade

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10 minutes ago, martc said:

I don't think MG are going to go down the pan any day soon - 

MG just missed the top 20, but can derive comfort  – and then some – from volumes that were up by 41 per cent. With sales almost 30 per cent down overall, this must rank as the success story of the year, possibly the decade. The bizarre, almost unbelievable truth is this: the main reason for the massive rise was largely down to MG’s unapologetically humble range of family EVs that are cheap, cheerful, and perfectly adequate for real-world buyers. The Germans, Japanese and Koreans know this, are closely monitoring MG’s pricing strategy, and rapidly trying to find ways to match it. 

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/opinion/354064/mg-sales-2020-will-must-rank-success-story-year-possibly-decade

Quite a lot of the SUV style MG's  running around here now in S.London.  A relative success I would say. MG retains it's showroom on Piccadilly opposite the Ritz too. 

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image.gif.47c6af456bb39c4c224d07212d3cdbb3.gifThe people falling for it (the real-world buyers in the quote) don't give a fig about old cars and will have little or no knowledge of an MG Metro or it's failings. Nor are they interested in the country they are made in (they probably don't know that RHD drive MG's are made in Thailand, not China for example).  They're more interested in £/month and gadgets. Reliability and build quality was a consideration back in the day but are taken as a  given for ALL cars today. 

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12 minutes ago, sierraman said:

I can’t believe people keep falling for it. Anybody over about 35 has the image of MG Metros and rubber bumper MGBs burned into their memory. What next? Izal green shiny toilet paper making a come back or Blue Nun wine making a return?

Most people don't know fuck all about MG and the Metro and Maestro are long erased from memory. Fact is there is a big market for small, cheap SUVs. Even if they are just branded tat.

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Estimated population of Europe: 750 million

Estimated population of China alone: 1400 million

Estimated population of SE Asia: 6715 million

Estimated number of people in SE Asia who care that the MG Maestro 1600 wasn't the best car on the planet enough for it to influence their purchasing decisions: < 0

Call it a hunch but I think the Chinese version of MG is going to be just fine.

 

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46 minutes ago, martc said:

I don't think MG are going to go down the pan any day soon - 

MG just missed the top 20, but can derive comfort  – and then some – from volumes that were up by 41 per cent. With sales almost 30 per cent down overall, this must rank as the success story of the year, possibly the decade. The bizarre, almost unbelievable truth is this: the main reason for the massive rise was largely down to MG’s unapologetically humble range of family EVs that are cheap, cheerful, and perfectly adequate for real-world buyers. The Germans, Japanese and Koreans know this, are closely monitoring MG’s pricing strategy, and rapidly trying to find ways to match it. 

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/opinion/354064/mg-sales-2020-will-must-rank-success-story-year-possibly-decade

Not entirely surprising. Their "passat copy", the EV5 has a quite bonkers price tag for the EV market. Where everyone is trying to keep their EVs under £40k, MG have theirs priced at £25k. That's not a million miles away from a mid-model Astra Diesel.

https://mg.co.uk/mg5-ev/

Next nearest EV is a Zoe or Nissan Leaf at nearly £5k more.

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22 minutes ago, JimH said:

Estimated population of Europe: 750 million

Estimated population of China alone: 1400 million

Estimated population of SE Asia: 6715 million

Estimated number of people in SE Asia who care that the MG Maestro 1600 wasn't the best car on the planet enough for it to influence their purchasing decisions: < 0

Call it a hunch but I think the Chinese version of MG is going to be just fine.

 

No that’s true, I’m assuming in China that’s where 90% of their sales go.

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On 7/1/2021 at 1:34 PM, mk2_craig said:

Has there ever been any subject which has had more words written about it by British motoring journalists?

I suppose it is one of those multi-faceted, long-running sagas that provides enough meat regardless of your political leanings. I can blame the Labour or the Conservatives or the management or  the lazy union scum or the French or the British or the Issigonis or the BMW or the four scallies or the Graham Day and his the beard and there is enough truth in each of those to let us feel happy that we are thinking the right think.

Was Rootes group much less of a shit storm? As far as I am aware the machinations at Fiat dwarf the palaver at BL but at least the Italians did it with likeable names and much better tailoring. The only thing I can think is that BL was one of those stories that played out nightly on the telly. My memory may be faulty but a new thing from BLARG was news on the telly and the New Thing would be seen with PM being driven if it were something flash and the Under Secretary For Regional Development and Barm Cake Purchasing driving if it weren't.  I cannot for the life of me remember a news story from my childhood about the launch of the Chrysler 180 or Vauxhall Cavalier. The flipside of that was if there was a two week strike at Bathgate over Rosalex benefits then every night we were treated to badly dressed people using hackneyed phrases while standing inside or outside the gate depending on which side they were taking.

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You mean Rootes, the experienced car maker who bought the company, Pressed Steel, on that site and expanded it, who were so renowned in their quality that two Swedish companies found the logistics just fine to buy the shells for their cars and take them back by land and sea to build their very, very long lived cars?  The UK is a tiny country that in many ways still treat investment as an arrow to the heart.

Can't wait to see the real economic impact case for our new intervention with Nissan.  We were meant give up cash for jobs cases for FDI years ago.

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Disregarding management, union and political issues, some things seem almost incredible. Ten years after the amalgamation in 1978,they were producing 5 completely different 4 cylinder engines between 1.5 and 2 litres, yet not one was of the 1600cc sweet spot size. Then there seemed to be the refusal to kill off old models in case potential buyers didn't like their replacements. Thinking of the 1800 being launched in 1964,but the Farina models carrying on completely unchanged for another 7 years. Imagine if Ford had carried on making the Mk 2 Cortina well into the 70s in case buyers found the new Mk 3 too big and didn't like coil springs and wishbones!To me though, a very big issue was that even in 1968 Ford and GM were working rapidly towards Europeanisation with the same cars made everywhere. The last truly British Fords were launched in 1966 and by 1977 the programme was complete. Vauxhalls weren't far behind. That way cars can be made where the labour costs are lowest and industrial relations are best. 

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2 hours ago, sierraman said:

I don’t think Rootes were much better. The opening of the factory in Scotland to build the Imp, shuttling all the components up country then shuttling them all back. I think the only components they sourced local was the steel. What a nuts logistical decision. 

As far as I'm aware, Rootes were pressured into building the factory in Scotland by the British government to try to alleviate unemployment.

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3 hours ago, sierraman said:

I don’t think Rootes were much better. The opening of the factory in Scotland to build the Imp, shuttling all the components up country then shuttling them all back. I think the only components they sourced local was the steel. What a nuts logistical decision. 

It folded about 15 years later as a factory after years of, admittedly common everywhere at the time, strike action and labour unrest. 

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4 hours ago, TheOtherStu said:

Not entirely surprising. Their "passat copy", the EV5 has a quite bonkers price tag for the EV market. Where everyone is trying to keep their EVs under £40k, MG have theirs priced at £25k. That's not a million miles away from a mid-model Astra Diesel.

https://mg.co.uk/mg5-ev/

Next nearest EV is a Zoe or Nissan Leaf at nearly £5k more.

I'd expand that to the fact that more a growing majority of drivers, a car is priced in cost per month. If an MG EV is £200/month where a Nissan Leaf is say £300, I know what I'd pick. No liability, just hand it back at the end of the hire period. Both look smart and modern and will have the same smell and driveability. Half of my possessions were made in China and most seem to hold up reasonably well. Why shouldn't the car be next?

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37 minutes ago, willswitchengage said:

I'd expand that to the fact that more a growing majority of drivers, a car is priced in cost per month. If an MG EV is £200/month where a Nissan Leaf is say £300, I know what I'd pick. No liability, just hand it back at the end of the hire period. Both look smart and modern and will have the same smell and driveability. Half of my possessions were made in China and most seem to hold up reasonably well. Why shouldn't the car be next?

Quite agree. Aren't many people who buy brand new cars any more - most are leased. And as you said, why not.
£200 a month over 36 months is £7200. Your £25k car isn't going to be worth £18k at the end of it even if it has only done 30,000 miles.

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Using cars is an interesting point.  For most consumers, it's a bit like a commercial vehicle where you never own it.  You've used the best part of it, still need one to be 10/10 so you replace it with a new one so the lease is a constant overhead built into your costs.  People who like cars, old or new, who buy them outright will become a minority. 

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8 hours ago, sierraman said:

I don’t think Rootes were much better. The opening of the factory in Scotland to build the Imp, shuttling all the components up country then shuttling them all back. I think the only components they sourced local was the steel. What a nuts logistical decision. 

it is always worth remembering that Chrysler, who had become desperate to get rid of what was left of Simca/Rootes by the  close of the 1970s had actually started merger talks with BL.

while doing the due diligence investigation BL discovered that Chrysler Europe were in an even bigger financial mess than they were, and politely brought the  talks to a speedy end.

Chrysler would eventually off load it all to Peugeot for a $1, though that did get them A LOT of debt, and the factory at Poissy, which was what i think they really wanted. Linwood closed pretty quickly after the merger, and while Royton closed back in 2006? and the design centre at Whitley now belongs to JLR.

 

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On 7/1/2021 at 7:53 AM, sierraman said:

Wasn’t the truck and bus part of the business profitable? 

very much so, up until the constant shit an shenanigans at Longbridge and/or Cowley frightening off buyers who saw news of YET another Leyland strike threatening their deliveries.

the bus and truck arms were not above fuckups of their own, the bus arm for instance pissed money away on the hapless 501 series engine, and for a long time wouldn't offer an alternative in their chassis. if they had the brains to offer the Gardner engine, the engine buyers actually wanted from the start, then maybe things would have been different.

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^ In the 1970s, price, dealer/spares availability, brand loyalty, driver familiarity.

All the brands mentioned above were very expensive and some weren’t really supported very well in terms of things like spare parts availability. 

They were purchased by owner/drivers and small outfits, who cared more about driver comfort and ultimate longevity, the big fleets stuck to Leyland/Ford/Bedford/Dodge well into the 1980s. 

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10 hours ago, Bitzer said:

Honestly, why would a person want to buy trucks from BL instead of Mercedes/Volvo/Scania/Man?

The demise of Britain's truck and bus industry?

Scale I guess for one. Like the car industry, we had a myriad of competing companies. MAN, IVECO etc merged together lots of companies far earlier on to create 'national champions' of sorts and thus had the scale to compete internationally. Britain's manufacturers were all very disparate and often outsourced engine manufacture like the American manufacturers. Again, the big European manufacturers all had their own engines - the most expensive element of a vehicle to develop and the 'unique selling point'. Did Britain's manufacturers also fail to grasp the export market? The biggest slice in Europe is the full size tractor - something we've historically not been very good at, with even the final ERF and Foden models being only mid-size. Similar to the car industry, were we too focussed on the domestic market? Britain's trucks were barely sold at all abroad, yet we still managed to import plenty of European stuff. Did we just not bother looking beyond our shores?

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It's been well-documented that BL made a mess of supplying cars for film and TV in the 1960s and 70s, FFS it was free advertising on prime-time TV, -  just supply some cars!!, which Ford took full advantage of.  (Ref The Professionals, Sweeney, etc).

Opportunities lost.

If they'd tried a bit harder BL could have had Kojak (in a Landcrab, with cigar-lighter), The Dukes Of Hazzard (a leaping ADO16 in the opening credits demonstrating it's revolutionary suspension), Hill Street Blues, Dallas, Trumpton, Shoestring, Armchair Thriller, Tales Of The Unexpected, The Six Million Dollar Man, Brookside, Roadrunner cartoons, BJ and The Bear, Smokey and The Bandit, George and Mildred, etc.   Maybe even Starsky and Hutch. They could have started a 'Z-cars' rival police TV series called 'BMC Cars', and supplied 1100s and Maxis and shite like that.

Feckin idiots. 

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