The Next Project: My Rover SD1 2600 Vanden Plas

[CreepingJesus]

Maybe I've missed something here, apologies if so, but...

Do you have a vacuum carb balancer? I know from experience of a mate's old 2600 (which I was going to buy off him, but the insurance was more £££s than the car, so I didn't...😞) that a few minutes balancing them, did help. The car wasn't bad, but afterwards, it was smoother and picked up better. Twin SU's are more forgiving than most, but they appreciate a tickle!

Over two decades later, I still regret not buying that one, so I do live vicariously through the SD1 threads. Yours is a fine example of the breed.

[Motown]

7 hours ago, CreepingJesus said:

Maybe I've missed something here, apologies if so, but...

Do you have a vacuum carb balancer? I know from experience of a mate's old 2600 (which I was going to buy off him, but the insurance was more £££s than the car, so I didn't...😞) that a few minutes balancing them, did help. The car wasn't bad, but afterwards, it was smoother and picked up better. Twin SU's are more forgiving than most, but they appreciate a tickle!

Over two decades later, I still regret not buying that one, so I do live vicariously through the SD1 threads. Yours is a fine example of the breed.

Thanks for the suggestion but all sorted now its was a dodgy earth and a knackered alternator causing the issue

[Motown]

Hello there fellow shiters!!!

I am getting closer to sorting the issues with my SD1 VDP i believe i have the fuel vaporization issue.... This is known to effect the V8s and i cant find any mention of it effecting 2600s online but i am experiencing all the same symptoms . The car runs and drives perfectly fine apart from being abit rich due to the carbs needing to be sett correctly which is booked in for this coming week. Thank you all kindly for your suggestions regarding that.

Now for the current issue

Bringing the car up to temperature (engine hot) with the bonnet open the car will start up every time without fail. However if the car is at temperature (engine hot) with the bonnet down after a run once its switched off it wont turn over again until the engine cools. After a drive with the engine switched off if i lift up the bonnet i can feel pockets of warm air (heat) coming up from the engine and the carbs are hot to touch.

Clearly the fuel in the carbs is been boiled and vaporised by the heat from the engine. 

 

One of the greatest things about the SD1 i find is that the triumph block literally makes it sounds like a spitfire. Mrs Motown is the test pilot in this video appropriately chosen because if she was forced to ditch it in the channel her sizable bosoms would allow her to float back to the Dover coastline in relative safety 

Does anyone have a solution for fuel vaporization?    Many thanks 😃

 

[timolloyd]

Have you checked photo’s of other 2.6 SD1s to see if you are missing any heat shields in the engine bay?

[Bren]

Never heard of this on a six pot - it can be a problem on V8's - especially efi cars.

Hsve you changed the fuel pump? I wonder if yours is getting a bit lazy?

[Motown]

17 minutes ago, Bren said:

Never heard of this on a six pot - it can be a problem on V8's - especially efi cars.

Hsve you changed the fuel pump? I wonder if yours is getting a bit lazy?

New fuel pump everything that end is BON 👍

 

Could the heat effect electrical wiring say to the starter motor? Is it worth covering it all in heat proof wrap of somthing? Should there be a heat shield under the carbs or on the fuel rail? Would this help?

[Motown]

1 hour ago, timolloyd said:

Have you checked photo’s of other 2.6 SD1s to see if you are missing any heat shields in the engine bay?

Ive checked pictures online but cant see anything different from mine.

Its all due to bonnet clearance..... When the engine stops all the heat in the block is no longer able to be removed by the cooling system and the block temperature is very high... When the car is stationary and the cooling process inactive that heat quickly rises and is collected by all the metal parts surrounding the fuel intake system fuel rail etc etc ...... This area gets very much hotter a few minutes after stopping than it ever does under normal running and cooling conditions.

This causes the fuel to vaporize in the fuel rail and upon re-start despite the pressure being controlled by the regulator vapor is an expanded form of liquid so the air/fuel mixture will be much weaker.... Obviously when trying to re-start the car the pump pushes in new cooler fuel but it is still very hot under the bonnet and new fuel may still vaporize until it can carry some of that heat away.

[CreepingJesus]

Stiff heat shielding under the carbs, and wrapping the fuel lines won't go amiss, but... Seeing as it's an airflow problem caused by the swoopy bonnet (that majestic swoopy bonnet!) how about arranging to have the cooling fan run on for five (or ten) after shut down? If it's not fitted with an electric cooling fan, you could fit one to do that job.

[Motown]

1 hour ago, CreepingJesus said:

Stiff heat shielding under the carbs, and wrapping the fuel lines won't go amiss, but... Seeing as it's an airflow problem caused by the swoopy bonnet (that majestic swoopy bonnet!) how about arranging to have the cooling fan run on for five (or ten) after shut down? If it's not fitted with an electric cooling fan, you could fit one to do that job.

I think that is a very good suggestion and i will look into having an electric cooling fan fitted. Can you recommend any heat shielding that will be suitable to fit under the carbs?  Would this fit? https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-UKC8372

I am going to cover the manifold and fuel rail in heat resistant wrap! 

[tooSavvy]

Is the fuel delivery a 'dead-head'? or has it a 'dump/return to tank'??

Constant flow of cool fuel from the tank (when cranked up again) should fire up....

[Motown]

1 hour ago, tooSavvy said:

Is the fuel delivery a 'dead-head'? or has it a 'dump/return to tank'??

Constant flow of cool fuel from the tank (when cranked up again) should fire up....

Delivery to the head 🤔

[CreepingJesus]

I can't recommend any particular brand - mostly because I'm a cheapskate and tend to use what I can find in a scrapyard or hardware place for £not much - but the part on Rimmer's website is along the right lines. Something stiff that will literally direct the hot air somewhere else, away from the problem area. The fan idea is the other end of that...just send all the hot air out, wherever it can exit! 

The only note of caution I'd add is to beware of ending up with too much insulation and suffering carb icing in cold weather. Somewhere in between will be ideal.

[PhilA]

Engine driven pump on these? 

I found a draw-through electric pump up by the tank resolved a lot of vaporization issues on my car- modern fuel is tosh- that makes sure liquid fuel is always reaching the pump. It'll burp any vapor up through the carb. 

Can be a bit wasteful but I prefer that over the car cutting out in hot traffic.

[johngarty]

Great thread. Duly bookmarked. 

[AnthonyG]

On 5/15/2021 at 3:20 PM, ProgRocker said:

Nice! Late registration (madness) on a D reg, although I understand that there were some police cars on E regs.

There were quite a lot of SDIs registered on D plates, IIRC the 800 was only available to buy from May or June 86, and this being Austin Rover, there would have several hundred SDIs still in the distribution pipeline/dealer backlots/a random disused airfield nr Cowley.

A ‘C’ reg 800 would be a very early car, I wonder if any have survived? 

I think it was the Metropolitan Police who earmarked the last V8 SDIs, they certainly had some E reg ones.  Generally, police forces didn’t really get on board with 800s until the 827 Fastback came out a couple of years later. 

[Magnificent Rustbucket]

Such handsome cars.

[Bren]

11 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

There were quite a lot of SDIs registered on D plates, IIRC the 800 was only available to buy from May or June 86, and this being Austin Rover, there would have several hundred SDIs still in the distribution pipeline/dealer backlots/a random disused airfield nr Cowley.

A ‘C’ reg 800 would be a very early car, I wonder if any have survived? 

I think it was the Metropolitan Police who earmarked the last V8 SDIs, they certainly had some E reg ones.  Generally, police forces didn’t really get on board with 800s until the 827 Fastback came out a couple of years later. 

I remember a lecturer I had at college who had a C reg 820.

[ProgRocker]

@AnthonyG @Bren

I remember seeing a used C reg 820 or 825 on a used car forecourt once. 

[Motown]

***Update***

So alot of people within the SD1 owners club and on various social media car groups are saying they doubt my issue is caused due to fuel vaporisation despite me experiencing all the symptoms associated with it as according to the masses the SD1 didnt really suffer from this problem apart from the V8 EFi and even that was a rare issue for that model... Anyway who am i to call them out and say they are wrong i appreciate the suggestions and the help quite honestly.

In an attempt to get to the bottom of the problem and maybe come up with some more ideas as to what it could be i thought id make a quick video of the set up under the bonnet. I was planning to do some work on the car today but rain and wind put an end to that.

 

Would it be worth covering the metal fuel rail to the carbs and plastic fuel pipe running from the tank with heat resistant wrap?

 

Would these bypasses cause any issue so as to much fuel getting in and flooding the carbs or the engine bay over heating?

 

Everything seems to be above board on the instrument panel with the exception of the oil level light! 

 

If anyone has any ideas please let me know. The car will soon be booked in with Dennis Vessey of Lincolnshire for some much needed carb attention.

 

 

 

 

 

[Bren]

Some of those pipes look past their best. Let the chap you are taking it to sort it - we are guessing - somebody could have been messing with the carbs in the past.

[Motown]

P5B SD1 and the 827 are probably the best cars Rover made in my opinion.... I cant afford a P5 so heres a picture of my big girl and my fastback 😍

 

[High Jetter]

Nice, but I love a P6. Still jealous though

[Ian_Fearn]

I’ve not fully caught up with this thread but what have you done to the ignition system on this? Coil? Plugs, leads, wiring to the ignition box (I presume it’s electronic ignition?).

I’d be surprised if fuel vaporisation is the cause of your woes but I can see why you would go down that route with those symptoms. I ran a V8 Range Rover on Strombergs and later SUs and the heat from the aluminium V8 was brutal on a hot day during a long run but it never boiled the fuel.

Theres so much room in the 6 cylinder engine bay and looking at the fuel pipe routing, I really can’t believe that you’ve driven it so hard as to create such the sort of heat needed to create vaporisation to the level that it wouldn’t start. We haven’t really had particularly high ambient temperatures either.

No doubt, you need to get the carbs properly setup and this might fix your problems but except on hard driven tightly packed engine bay cars, my life experience says hot starting issues are more likely to be the coil or ignition system wiring.

[Motown]

On 7/7/2021 at 5:16 PM, Ian_Fearn said:

I’ve not fully caught up with this thread but what have you done to the ignition system on this? Coil? Plugs, leads, wiring to the ignition box (I presume it’s electronic ignition?).

I’d be surprised if fuel vaporisation is the cause of your woes but I can see why you would go down that route with those symptoms. I ran a V8 Range Rover on Strombergs and later SUs and the heat from the aluminium V8 was brutal on a hot day during a long run but it never boiled the fuel.

Theres so much room in the 6 cylinder engine bay and looking at the fuel pipe routing, I really can’t believe that you’ve driven it so hard as to create such the sort of heat needed to create vaporisation to the level that it wouldn’t start. We haven’t really had particularly high ambient temperatures either.

No doubt, you need to get the carbs properly setup and this might fix your problems but except on hard driven tightly packed engine bay cars, my life experience says hot starting issues are more likely to be the coil or ignition system wiring.

il bring you up to speed  

Its had new battery, spark plugs, HT leads, coil, dizzy cap, rotor arm, new filters. fresh oil (engine and box) and the engine was timed by a member from the SD1 club. Engine compression is good fuel pressure and other readings are all good. (although my tacho doesn't work) but it seems to be idling fine.

The car starts and runs its abit hesitant from a cold start on the key and runs rich for a minute or two but soon settles and everything appears normal. When ran up to temperature (engine hot) with the bonnet down if you switch the engine off it wont run again no matter how much you turn the ignition until the engine has cooled somewhat.

However it doesn't do this if you leave the bonnet open i know this because ive tested this multiple times with the car idling on the drive both with the bonnet up and the bonnet down. This was also proven to be the case when after tinkering with the car both myself and Mrs Motown took it for a quick spin to the petrol station. The engine wasn't quite up to temperature when we arrived at the petrol station but very close and very nearly didn't start after filling up with fuel. We got home from the petrol station which is about a ten minute drive and once the engine was switched off it wouldn't start up again immediately after... I let the engine cool and it started first time on the key.

Fuel vaporisation is a possibility but i am more inclined to believe it may be related to air flow or the carbs now.

 

[Ian_Fearn]

Out of interest do you still have the old coil? I have experienced so many new modern ‘quality’ parts fail that I inherently distrust things and I often find replacement of multiple components at once can be a recipe for problems.

I totally get that there’s a link between temperature and your issue but I really really struggle to think the issue is simply down to air flow, if it was air flow you would have a problem all the time. I think something is getting warm and failing, or perhaps suffering reduced output as a result of the heat. Something electrical. It’s the idea that cooling down allows it to restart and that cold starts are ok.

I assume these are a cast iron block? Compared to an aluminium V8 that just throws heat out in a cramped engine bay, the 6 cylinder is practically ice cool!

Just my idle thoughts anyway…..

[Motown]

On 7/9/2021 at 5:13 PM, Ian_Fearn said:

I think something is getting warm and failing, or perhaps suffering reduced output as a result of the heat. Something electrical. It’s the idea that cooling down allows it to restart and that cold starts are ok.

Just my idle thoughts anyway…..

Thats a very good suggestion. il give the old coil a try and check to see if heat is having negative effect on the coil or the wiring 👍

[Fumbler]

6 minutes ago, Motown said:

Thats a very good suggestion. il give the old coil a try and check to see if heat is having negative effect on the coil or the wiring 👍

Do you have electronic ignition? Lucas ignition modules especially do like to cook and fail when warm.

[Ian_Fearn]

55 minutes ago, Fumbler said:

Do you have electronic ignition? Lucas ignition modules especially do like to cook and fail when warm.

@MotownThis is exactly the sort of thing I’d be looking at. Absolutely anything with current passing through it related to ignition. 

[Motown]

5 hours ago, Fumbler said:

Do you have electronic ignition? Lucas ignition modules especially do like to cook and fail when warm.

Aye electronic ignition again maybe onto something here..... I checked my module earlier today and although it appears to be working when i removed it for inspection i noticed there was no heat proof glue underneath which you normally find on these things.

Could it really be that simple?  Obviously there is only one way to find out so I've ordered another module to test.

When it arrives il  run the car to temperature again with the bonnet down until it fails to hot start then il change the module. If it fires up we know the current module is at fault when the engine bay is hot. 😃👍

[Motown]

Its 1.46am everyone in the house is alseep but i am wide awake cleaning an servicing twin SU carbs.... 🤣