2003 Citroen C5 estate.....the end

[lexi]

S/H box from a known runner would be nice. Replace the valve blocks while it is in front of you.

  I think I would have a go as there is information out there.  The auto on Cits are no worse than anything else. Proper fluid (LT Esso)   and changes would have saved most of them.

[maxxo]

30 minutes ago, lexi said:

S/H box from a known runner would be nice. Replace the valve blocks while it is in front of you.

  I think I would have a go as there is information out there.  The auto on Cits are no worse than anything else. Proper fluid (LT Esso)   and changes would have saved most of them.

It would but the concern is as they were classed as sealed for life is that it could do the same in 20-30k

 

[maxxo]

drove it in manual mode just now, no change, maybe slightly smoother shifts but they're rarely horrible

drove round with lexia attached today monitoring the temps, 93c was the highest i could get it which is within it's operating range

oil pressure pretty much bang on

so the issues:

2nd gear unlocked, when under load and hot it shudders and surges, like the box is slipping and catching etc

usually above 40, under load accelerating you often lose power, completely, you can only maintain speed, but engine revs rarely increase much but i have noted it slip just slightly during this

backing off sorts it

shifts usually get a bit notchy after that for a while before becoming smooth again whilst 2nd unlocked is still rough

i'm wondering, maybe, just maybe, it's some weird form of engine issue i'm actually having?

but what could cause it? MAF sensor maybe? but no codes at all

surely, if it was slipping enough to start losing speed it would log a fault code

[maxxo]

Just been out in it

mostly alright albeit just town driving

so hot the air con was struggling!

[Jazoli]

It's not an engine issue, the box is fucked and I think you know this, it will fail completely at some point and become undrivable, it's time to fix it or flog it. 

[Pat Earrings]

20 hours ago, maxxo said:

drove it in manual mode just now, no change, maybe slightly smoother shifts but they're rarely horrible

drove round with lexia attached today monitoring the temps, 93c was the highest i could get it which is within it's operating range

oil pressure pretty much bang on

so the issues:

2nd gear unlocked, when under load and hot it shudders and surges, like the box is slipping and catching etc

usually above 40, under load accelerating you often lose power, completely, you can only maintain speed, but engine revs rarely increase much but i have noted it slip just slightly during this

backing off sorts it

shifts usually get a bit notchy after that for a while before becoming smooth again whilst 2nd unlocked is still rough

i'm wondering, maybe, just maybe, it's some weird form of engine issue i'm actually having?

but what could cause it? MAF sensor maybe? but no codes at all

surely, if it was slipping enough to start losing speed it would log a fault code

I would have suggested MAF too, but in my experience that disappears when you restart the engine. This fault of yours appears more mechanical, and potentially the early stages of box failure. 

[Rocket88]

20 hours ago, maxxo said:

drove it in manual mode just now, no change, maybe slightly smoother shifts but they're rarely horrible

drove round with lexia attached today monitoring the temps, 93c was the highest i could get it which is within it's operating range

oil pressure pretty much bang on

so the issues:

2nd gear unlocked, when under load and hot it shudders and surges, like the box is slipping and catching etc

usually above 40, under load accelerating you often lose power, completely, you can only maintain speed, but engine revs rarely increase much but i have noted it slip just slightly during this

backing off sorts it

shifts usually get a bit notchy after that for a while before becoming smooth again whilst 2nd unlocked is still rough

i'm wondering, maybe, just maybe, it's some weird form of engine issue i'm actually having?

but what could cause it? MAF sensor maybe? but no codes at all

surely, if it was slipping enough to start losing speed it would log a fault code

Don’t think it’s engine related. Would suspect that ECU is trying to sort out mixed messages between engine and gearbox 

[yes oui si]

On 08/07/2022 at 11:04, maxxo said:

I can’t find anywhere that’ll do the transmission for less than 2k unfortunately, well anywhere that looks half decent 

so, I’m going to run it until it starts to get really bad and then move it on I’m afraid 

Get rid of it now and get some actual money for it. 

Waiting until the box properly shits itself will make it worth £300.

[maxxo]

but what if you don't want to admit the truth.....

i know it's almost certainly autobox failure

[Cord Fourteener]

1 hour ago, maxxo said:

but what if you don't want to admit the truth.....

i know it's almost certainly autobox failure

You could park it up at home and use it as a greenhouse. 

 

 

 

 

 

Only joking, put it up on Facebook for twice what is worth. 

[SmokinWaffle]

I'm still firmly in the "if you love it, you may as well fix it as not much car of that size and comfort can be had for 2k" club. 

[Cord Fourteener]

8 minutes ago, SmokinWaffle said:

I'm still firmly in the "if you love it, you may as well fix it as not much car of that size and comfort can be had for 2k" club. 

I just scrapped my Mondeo for shitting it's turbo slowly into the air/exhaust. 

I'm not bitter, honest!

[Mrcento]

7 minutes ago, SmokinWaffle said:

I'm still firmly in the "if you love it, you may as well fix it as not much car of that size and comfort can be had for 2k" club. 

Same. Just look at the market right now and what's available for 2-3k that could adequately replace it.

It's just a whole lot of nope. And i say that as someone in that market right now. It's dire.

Pretty sure Maxxo could sell it now, buy something else with of similar value, and would just regret not repairing the C5 pretty quickly.

[maxxo]

We’ve got developments!

[maxxo]

Took a friend out in this tonight, we were messing about trying to figure it out

its loss of power was the worst today, ridiculously slow, however, we noted if you floor it the gearbox kicks down and acts like it should but you have no real acceleration, but no slip, until 3-3.5k rpm when you shoot off and nearly ram into the car in front……..interesting

so we unplugged the MAF, which made zero difference for a few miles and then it got slower 

pulled over and plugged it back in, then it got upset and put the engine light on, but performance was how it was earlier, but, managed to get the gearbox fault warning to come up

however I think that’s cos it was in limp mode anyway and driving it hard confused it

but, interesting to note, fault mode for the box is 3rd unlocked, silky smooth driving on the torque converter 

so, it’s either a second gear issue or an engine issue causing the shudder

another thing of interest to note, it seems to mostly shift fine, but when the car is being slow it’s notchy, now this could be something to do with it trying to compensate or getting confused 

I’m going to run Lexia tomorrow and see what it says

[OM646]

2 hours ago, Mrcento said:

Same. Just look at the market right now and what's available for 2-3k that could adequately replace it.

It's just a whole lot of nope. And i say that as someone in that market right now. It's dire.

Pretty sure Maxxo could sell it now, buy something else with of similar value, and would just regret not repairing the C5 pretty quickly.

And if he just picks up another automatic C5, even an exclusive, one never knows what to expect from the gearbox....

It's a "fix it" in my opinion as well

[maxxo]

Another update 

I don’t think it’s the box, or at least the main issue isn’t the box 

I’m aware the box is worn, that’s obviously going to happen at this mileage 

23c or so today, all the power in the world…..well as much as a diesel automatic c5 can give

no slipping, nothing

however, I noted a very rough idle when I parked up

hmmmmmmm

[jamescarruthers]

18 minutes ago, maxxo said:

Another update 

I don’t think it’s the box, or at least the main issue isn’t the box 

I’m aware the box is worn, that’s obviously going to happen at this mileage 

23c or so today, all the power in the world…..well as much as a diesel automatic c5 can give

no slipping, nothing

however, I noted a very rough idle when I parked up

hmmmmmmm

Some hope then!

I know people just like to say “MAF” to everything these days but on my sister’s 2.2, Chevronics found that the wiring to there MAF plug had been damaged a little over the years as it had to be disconnected or gets a bit tugged to change something fairly frequently (air filter, maybe?).  They repaired it anyway and it only occasionally hiccuped before that. 
 

It may be worth a look at yours in this respect. Also, to be on the safe side, we put a second hand genuine one from Edwards & Sons on as aftermarket are supposed to be a bit hit and miss. I mention them specifically because they looked after us when the replacement Eolys tank had a gummed up pump and they were very happy for me to go back and try another without and fuss. So I’d trust their parts and them to do the right thing by you if you do want a second hand MAF. 

[maxxo]

On 7/21/2022 at 3:01 PM, jamescarruthers said:

Some hope then!

I know people just like to say “MAF” to everything these days but on my sister’s 2.2, Chevronics found that the wiring to there MAF plug had been damaged a little over the years as it had to be disconnected or gets a bit tugged to change something fairly frequently (air filter, maybe?).  They repaired it anyway and it only occasionally hiccuped before that. 
 

It may be worth a look at yours in this respect. Also, to be on the safe side, we put a second hand genuine one from Edwards & Sons on as aftermarket are supposed to be a bit hit and miss. I mention them specifically because they looked after us when the replacement Eolys tank had a gummed up pump and they were very happy for me to go back and try another without and fuss. So I’d trust their parts and them to do the right thing by you if you do want a second hand MAF. 

did a fair few full throttle 50-80 pulls today, no issues, kicks down as expected and got the engine stinking hot

again, no issues

so, it must be something that gets too hot

now the suddering at low speed, i can make it do that, i think that might be the transmission......yet it doesn't do it in 1st unlocked and only when properly warm

i think, it might be fuel related you know

[RoverFolkUs]

For some reason I can't view videos on this forum. Are you able to upload a video of it to youtube or something and share a link?

[maxxo]

20 minutes ago, RoverFolkUs said:

For some reason I can't view videos on this forum. Are you able to upload a video of it to youtube or something and share a link?

i'll get some videos made it if when it next acts up

[maxxo]

cannot get it to act up

but surely, if the box was bad it couldn't do a full throttle at speed full load acceleration with no issues like here

this is the only video i have of it acting up, this was at a steady throttle and it had almost no power at all

i'm going to let it get worse

but i'm actually really stumped with this, so much so i think this is a take it to the garage and let them sort it problem

[maxxo]

Potentially very good news

it did it today, couldn’t accelerate past 60, felt like I hit a brick wall

So I floored it, right to the floor

Nothing, no increase in revs etc or kick down……interesting

lift off and back on and yep all fine

now it did it again shortly afterwards, so I decided to quickly wack on the cruise control, and use that to accelerate bearing in mind I had the throttle pedal pinned to the floor

kickdown, full throttle acceleration which stopped when I released the cruise control button

very interesting 

[Cord Fourteener]

16 minutes ago, maxxo said:

Potentially very good news

it did it today, couldn’t accelerate past 60, felt like I hit a brick wall

So I floored it, right to the floor

Nothing, no increase in revs etc or kick down……interesting

lift off and back on and yep all fine

now it did it again shortly afterwards, so I decided to quickly wack on the cruise control, and use that to accelerate bearing in mind I had the throttle pedal pinned to the floor

kickdown, full throttle acceleration which stopped when I released the cruise control button

very interesting 

Have the electronicicals gone French on you?

[RoverFolkUs]

I'd be tempted to watch the throttle position sensor in live data while it's playing up. 

I appreciate this would be difficult to do but if you got an assistant to help it would be easier

If for example you are flooring it but the ECU is not showing a change in commanded throttle this would point you (or me with my thinking, rather in the direction of the throttle electronics. 

If it's being commanded but nothings actually happening, that opens up another can of worms and won't actually answer anything, just muddy the waters even further!

The lack of fault codes stumps me, though!

[Daviemck2006]

Theres only one thing to say about it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,its gone all French!

Sent from my SM-T585 using Tapatalk

[maxxo]

6 hours ago, RoverFolkUs said:

I'd be tempted to watch the throttle position sensor in live data while it's playing up. 

I appreciate this would be difficult to do but if you got an assistant to help it would be easier

If for example you are flooring it but the ECU is not showing a change in commanded throttle this would point you (or me with my thinking, rather in the direction of the throttle electronics. 

If it's being commanded but nothings actually happening, that opens up another can of worms and won't actually answer anything, just muddy the waters even further!

The lack of fault codes stumps me, though!

Stumps me too, I’d love a fault code, any code at all

id love it to bring the eml on 

but the fact whilst it was acting up, I managed to get good acceleration with the cruise control leads me to believe it’s a throttle pedal issue

which is fine with me

[maxxo]

had a perfect one today

driving up a hill accelerating moderately testing the shifts of the box

it was fine, right up until it got to around 50 then utterly nothing, infact started to lose speed

foot to the floor, no change but the gearbox did kickdown, but no power

held one of the cruise buttons down, then full acceleration......

so, how does this work then

i presume, theres a potentiometer on the throttle pedal but afaik it's a cable throttle? my picasso was so i'm not sure about this

the gearbox ECU detects the throttle openings fine as it kicked down

so it's the engine side of things then

or are these fly by wire? it's of that age where it could easily be either or cos french probably both with an overcomplicated system

unless of course it's a cable throttle to the engine bay then it adjust a potentiometer? but then again, why would it work fine using cruise?

the low speed judder when you accelerate, you can make it do it if you do a fair bit of stop start town driving. so something gets too hot

now, i'm wondering if the gearbox is actually fine (i'm almost convinced it is now) and the juddering with an unlocked converter is actually something causing the engine to almost misfire? but surely that would log a code, i'd assume it would do the same if it was the box but no codes

i need to try and find out how the throttle pedal is controlled under the bonnet, i think my issue lies there

[AnnoyingPentium]

I had the throttle pedal go on the Fabia, and the loss of power you describe sounds very similar. If it's an electronically controlled throttle then you may be lucky and the potentiometer and pedal are one unit that can be easily removed like mine was.

[maxxo]

8 minutes ago, AnnoyingPentium said:

I had the throttle pedal go on the Fabia, and the loss of power you describe sounds very similar. If it's an electronically controlled throttle then you may be lucky and the potentiometer and pedal are one unit that can be easily removed like mine was.

it only does it when up to temp though

or for the juddering then when usually when hot or you've done a lot of town driving

god this is confusing me

it is getting worse thankfully, but i fear this might end up being a dump it in the garage and get them to mend it issue