Dick's Lambretta adventures - WU history update

[Dick Longbridge]

38 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

G4 will be July 1964 or 1984  

Thanks, I'm leaning more towards 64 looking at the box...

 

[LightBulbFun]

22 hours ago, Dick Longbridge said:

Thanks, I'm leaning more towards 64 looking at the box...

 

yeah id say 1964  

Philips date codes are an alphanumeric

the letter donated the Month of manufacturer, A being January and M being December (skipping I) and the number year donated the year

the current system started in January 1964 with A4, and then it would swap round

so Jan 1974 would be 4A, then Jan 1984 would be A4 again, 1994 would be 4A, and so forth 

so you use this, plus the features of the lamp itself etc to narrow down the date of manufacture exactly

(Pre Jan 1964 lamps used a different system of dots dashes and symbols, your 1961 Lambretta came with such an example lamp IIRC  )

 

there are on most Philips lamps also a symbol that tells you what factory the lamp was in, although I cant see one on the lamp you have photographed (but it might be obscured by something as the etch is against a noisy background which makes it hard to read)

[Dick Longbridge]

So, update time. After telling myself I didn't need a Lambretta any more, I promptly bought a 1960 UK scooter - a Series 2 Li150. It's a bit of a Trigger's broom I think - it's had numerous paintjobs over the years and I'm fairly confident various parts have been replaced rather than repaired over the years. However, the old girl still has her original (non transferable so it'll always remain with the scooter) Yorkshire registration and the original buff logbook too along with some old MOTs and tax disks. It's also had a relatively recent engine rebuild along with fork rebuild at Armandos oop North. The buff logbook really made it for me as I've been able to track down the name and location of the original dealership along with chatting to the daughter/granddaughter of the original owners! She's almost beside herself that her father's old Lambretta is still on the road and continues to search for photos of the scooter back in the day,  although she hasn't managed to come up trumps yet. It's still been great to hear about the owners from 50-60 years ago though and to see a photo of the fellas.

The scooter lived near Rotherham in Wath Upon Dearne for many years and never left the North until I bought it. It had only sidestepped to Sheffield at that point so she's a proper Northern bird since leaving Milan in 1960. 

The previous owner liked their chrome tat way more than I so I'm in the process of undoing their work. The photo below is how the scooter looked before they drilled the legshields (gutted about that) to fit crashbars - it's the look I'm going back to. Crashbars are sold, modern saddles are sold and I'm waiting on delivery of a pair of original early 1960s single Italian seats rather than the modern rubbish which is fitted in the photo. The white scooter in my recent post on the previous page has also been useful for carefully swapping over a few non Italian bits - the sort most people wouldn't bat an eyelid at but do bother me! I've just sold the white one which gives me room in the garage again soon to properly get this one sorted. 

Say hello to WU! 

[LightBulbFun]

having heard quite a bit about this bike, its great to finally see it so to speak  

even more awesome that you where able to track down relatives of previous keepers and the such like!

hopefully some period photos can be found! very much looking forward to seeing more on it!  

[Dick Longbridge]

So, the all-white fresh import has sold and I've made a few drinks from it. Space back in the garage again and I can concentrate on WU.

I've just visited Tippers plates which is a mile away from me and who I used previously to make a Lambretta period plate. Hopefully my new plate should be ready tomorrow. 

I've taken a few photos of some of the products they have on offer - it's amazing to see such a range. The 20s-30s ones are cast in a foundry elsewhere and cost an eye-watering amount. However they're phenomenal quality and look like they'd survive an apocalypse. If anyone is looking for a quality, period plate, this place is spot-on. 

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, Dick Longbridge said:

So, the all-white fresh import has sold and I've made a few drinks from it. Space back in the garage again and I can concentrate on WU.

I've just visited Tippers plates which is a mile away from me and who I used previously to make a Lambretta period plate. Hopefully my new plate should be ready tomorrow. 

I've taken a few photos of some of the products they have on offer - it's amazing to see such a range. The 20s-30s ones are cast in a foundry elsewhere and cost an eye-watering amount. However they're phenomenal quality and look like they'd survive an apocalypse. If anyone is looking for a quality, period plate, this place is spot-on. 

Cor blimey! you need to put a NSFW warning next time you post something like that LOL

 

when you go back, do you think you could ask them about REV's style of number plate? all the retroreflective plates I have seen on their website and in your pictures show the wrong type of boarder, so I do wonder if Tippers still has the type of boarder as used on actual Tippers plates in the 1970's

On 17/07/2022 at 11:14, LightBulbFun said:

the only question that remains is if Tippers can reproduce the retroreflective Invacar Model 70 plate with its sharp corner border (we know they have the correct font and 1 still, but I dont know if they have the right border or not!)

there are several Invacar Model 70's out there that I know have lost their original Tippers number plates, so it would be good to know if accurate reproductions can be made or not

 

another one I am curious if you can ask them about, is why they dont use their seriffed 1 anymore? thankfully they still have the die for it, and @AdgeCutler was able to specifically request it for his Mk12 plate, but again if you look at your pictures/their websites, none of the plates have it "by default" and I wonder why

the Tippers 1 at least to me is a big part of what makes a Tippers plate, so I wonder why they dropped it!, was there a reason behind it, or simply was it lost to time, ie the modern people working  dont even realise it?

On 17/07/2022 at 10:17, AdgeCutler said:

Hopefully the rear plate will pass muster too? I did drill it as I don’t trust adhesive with this investment.

 

as a side bonus thing, do you think you might be able to ask them if they have the correct die set to do AC Model 70 style plates? I THINK these are Ace plates (note the stubby serif on the 1 and the P) 

so I dont think Tippers would have the right die set sadly, but it cant hurt to ask can it?  

[Cavcraft]

Some of those look great, I wonder if they do the (huge) original FS1E type plates? The ones like the 'LFM' plate in the pictures might also suit the SS50.

Even 'old style' shiny modern replica b&w plates look gash on older vehicles, ruins the look of them IMHO.

[Jerzy Woking]

14 minutes ago, Cavcraft said:

Some of those look great, I wonder if they do the (huge) original FS1E type plates? The ones like the 'LFM' plate in the pictures might also suit the SS50.

Even 'old style' shiny modern replica b&w plates look gash on older vehicles, ruins the look of them IMHO.

I remember the large rear plates that were seemingly fitted to all FS1E's from 1974 to 1976. At least in Essex that is. Looked like billboards.

[paulplom]

I did a job for a bricklayer I work with yesterday. He has a 2014 one owned from new with 2000 miles on the clock. He paid nearly £4k for it. He hasn't used it and it hasn't ran since covid. 

He offered to sell me it cheap. I said your cheap and my cheap will be two different things.

I can make enquiries if anyone is interested.

[Dave_Q]

1 hour ago, paulplom said:

I did a job for a bricklayer I work with yesterday. He has a 2014 one owned from new with 2000 miles on the clock. He paid nearly £4k for it. He hasn't used it and it hasn't ran since covid. 

He offered to sell me it cheap. I said your cheap and my cheap will be two different things.

I can make enquiries if anyone is interested.

Worth making enquiries, if it's a 2014 Lambretta its a Chinese effort which is not massively well regarded.

A 2014 Vespa might be worth a look but all depends on price.

[Dick Longbridge]

3 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

Cor blimey! you need to put a NSFW warning next time you post something like that LOL

 

when you go back, do you think you could ask them about REV's style of number plate? all the retroreflective plates I have seen on their website and in your pictures show the wrong type of boarder, so I do wonder if Tippers still has the type of boarder as used on actual Tippers plates in the 1970's

there are several Invacar Model 70's out there that I know have lost their original Tippers number plates, so it would be good to know if accurate reproductions can be made or not

 

another one I am curious if you can ask them about, is why they dont use their seriffed 1 anymore? thankfully they still have the die for it, and @AdgeCutler was able to specifically request it for his Mk12 plate, but again if you look at your pictures/their websites, none of the plates have it "by default" and I wonder why

the Tippers 1 at least to me is a big part of what makes a Tippers plate, so I wonder why they dropped it!, was there a reason behind it, or simply was it lost to time, ie the modern people working  dont even realise it?

 

as a side bonus thing, do you think you might be able to ask them if they have the correct die set to do AC Model 70 style plates? I THINK these are Ace plates (note the stubby serif on the 1 and the P) 

so I dont think Tippers would have the right die set sadly, but it cant hurt to ask can it?  

I thought you (along with several others) would enjoy the photos 😉

Tippers paint plates on a Wednesday so my plate is being fabricated today and painted tomorrow. I got the impression from Josh - the lad who's dealing with my order - that opening hours to the public are fairly limited. He was talking about dropping the plate direct to my home on his way back from work tomorrow; if I don't get chance to pop into the shop I'll ask him your questions directly when he gives me the plate. 

3 hours ago, Cavcraft said:

Some of those look great, I wonder if they do the (huge) original FS1E type plates? The ones like the 'LFM' plate in the pictures might also suit the SS50.

Even 'old style' shiny modern replica b&w plates look gash on older vehicles, ruins the look of them IMHO.

Black and silver plates look great on vehicles which would have originally had them fitted. When I ordered my plate earlier, I had the option of polished finish or matt finish on the bare ally parts. I chose matt finish in the hope that the plate looks more like it's been fitted for years, rather than brand spanking new.

[paulplom]

1 hour ago, Dave_Q said:

Worth making enquiries, if it's a 2014 Lambretta its a Chinese effort which is not massively well regarded.

A 2014 Vespa might be worth a look but all depends on price.

I can't remember which but £3800 new for a 125cc I doubt it's chinese.

I'm working for him again on Thursday I think. I'll ask and see what the crack is.

NE30 postcode.

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, Dick Longbridge said:

I thought you (along with several others) would enjoy the photos 😉

Tippers paint plates on a Wednesday so my plate is being fabricated today and painted tomorrow. I got the impression from Josh - the lad who's dealing with my order - that opening hours to the public are fairly limited. He was talking about dropping the plate direct to my home on his way back from work tomorrow; if I don't get chance to pop into the shop I'll ask him your questions directly when he gives me the plate. 

Black and silver plates look great on vehicles which would have originally had them fitted. When I ordered my plate earlier, I had the option of polished finish or matt finish on the bare ally parts. I chose matt finish in the hope that the plate looks more like it's been fitted for years, rather than brand spanking new.

thanks thats much appreciated!  

 

really the thing about the 1 is just something im curious about, but the Invacar and AC thing are actually something that would benefit vehicles, so make sure those get prioritised first before my own curiosities LOL

and if you can do make sure to show him the picture examples I posted and dont confuse the Invacar and AC  please!

 

again with the Invacar (REV) plate im specifically wondering if they can still do the boarder style it has with the squared off corners, and with the AC (VPF) plate im wondering if they happen to have the Ace plates dieset or not?

I seriously appreciate this, these are questions that I have been wondering about for a fair old while, so I am quite excited to finally get answers hopefully  

[Cavcraft]

3 hours ago, Dave_Q said:

Worth making enquiries, if it's a 2014 Lambretta its a Chinese effort which is not massively well regarded.

A 2014 Vespa might be worth a look but all depends on price.

2014 could be the PROPERLY awful Lambretta, weren't they called an LN125 or something? Lambretta took them to court iirc, so thankfully there weren't too many about.  That said, their later foray into the market to rival Scomadi and R.A looks absolutely shit.

[Dick Longbridge]

26 minutes ago, Cavcraft said:

2014 could be the PROPERLY awful Lambretta, weren't they called an LN125 or something? Lambretta took them to court iirc, so thankfully there weren't too many about.  That said, their later foray into the market to rival Scomadi and R.A looks absolutely shit.

Sounds about right. Scomadi became a worthy 'new Lambretta' rather than those grim LN heaps right up until Royal Alloy came along and blew the lot out of the water. 

[Cavcraft]

1 hour ago, Dick Longbridge said:

Sounds about right. Scomadi became a worthy 'new Lambretta' rather than those grim LN heaps right up until Royal Alloy came along and blew the lot out of the water. 

Scomadi pretty much got what they deserved, tbh.  I understand the legal action to an extent, but with hindsight it was a massive and expensive failure. All the things they promised us (250 manual, production 300cc, 400cc in the pipeline etc) never happened and RA just surpassed them by building a 300 and selling shit loads more scooters than Scomadi seem to have managed.

Absolutely HEART my TL200 but a TG300 (in maroon) is a very attractive proposition. That said, a mate's RA 125 was off the road for about 3 months whilst the main dealers waited for a part.

[Dick Longbridge]

1 hour ago, Cavcraft said:

Scomadi pretty much got what they deserved, tbh.  I understand the legal action to an extent, but with hindsight it was a massive and expensive failure. All the things they promised us (250 manual, production 300cc, 400cc in the pipeline etc) never happened and RA just surpassed them by building a 300 and selling shit loads more scooters than Scomadi seem to have managed.

Absolutely HEART my TL200 but a TG300 (in maroon) is a very attractive proposition. That said, a mate's RA 125 was off the road for about 3 months whilst the main dealers waited for a part.

I didn't realise the full detail on the links between Scomadi and Royal Alloy. I've just read up on them and the legal wranglings. For me, if I had to choose a modern scooter, I'd be all over a Royal Alloy TG300. I keep on seeing one locally and the first couple of times I saw it (from a distance!) I assumed it was a 60s Lambretta. Obviously, up close it's clear it's a modern twist and go which hasn't even vaguely been near Milan. They're a decent modern interpretation of what could have been though with decent performance to boot. 

[warren t claim]

5 hours ago, Cavcraft said:

2014 could be the PROPERLY awful Lambretta, weren't they called an LN125 or something? Lambretta took them to court iirc, so thankfully there weren't too many about.  That said, their later foray into the market to rival Scomadi and R.A looks absolutely shit.

I'm sure back in 1983 I met a Mod lad who owned something called a Servetta? 

[face]

4 hours ago, Cavcraft said:

Scomadi pretty much got what they deserved, tbh.  I understand the legal action to an extent, but with hindsight it was a massive and expensive failure. All the things they promised us (250 manual, production 300cc, 400cc in the pipeline etc) never happened and RA just surpassed them by building a 300 and selling shit loads more scooters than Scomadi seem to have managed.

Absolutely HEART my TL200 but a TG300 (in maroon) is a very attractive proposition. That said, a mate's RA 125 was off the road for about 3 months whilst the main dealers waited for a part.

There’s some horror stories from owners waiting months for simple parts. The back up from RA themselves has got a shit reputation. Dealers are good and folk like the scooters but plenty are sick to death of waiting for spares.

I went to have a look at one a couple of years back and they’re very smart things.

[Cavcraft]

4 hours ago, warren t claim said:

I'm sure back in 1983 I met a Mod lad who owned something called a Servetta? 

Aye, a mate had one, they're Spanish built Lambrettas iirc and made at the same time SIL (Scooters India Limited) were about, I think. Just to confuse the issue a bit more, there was also the Allwyn Pushpak (Pushcrap) which were Indian.  I had a mildly tuned (15BHP) AP 200 and it went like an absolute rocket, but was horribly throttle twitchy and didn't like being ridden unless flat out. Fine on a  long run but just not nice at low speeds.

 

6 hours ago, Dick Longbridge said:

I didn't realise the full detail on the links between Scomadi and Royal Alloy. I've just read up on them and the legal wranglings. For me, if I had to choose a modern scooter, I'd be all over a Royal Alloy TG300. I keep on seeing one locally and the first couple of times I saw it (from a distance!) I assumed it was a 60s Lambretta. Obviously, up close it's clear it's a modern twist and go which hasn't even vaguely been near Milan. They're a decent modern interpretation of what could have been though with decent performance to boot. 

Mate of mine has a marron coloured one of them, they look class to be fair. He's saying it'll pull 80 (and sit there, iirc) no danger. Managed 83/84 on the Scomadi once down a not huge hill, probably had more in it too.

 

4 hours ago, face said:

There’s some horror stories from owners waiting months for simple parts. The back up from RA themselves has got a shit reputation. Dealers are good and folk like the scooters but plenty are sick to death of waiting for spares.

I went to have a look at one a couple of years back and they’re very smart things.

It's ridiculous, given the number they've sold. There must be any number of new unregistered ones about too, so you'd think they'd keep some back for parts until the situation improves.

[I_am_Diesel]

I've just bought a brand new RA GP300. It's an absolute blast, I highly recommend them. People mistake it for my Lambretta GP200. 

[Dick Longbridge]

New plate ordered yesterday, and collected from Tippers this morning, fresh from painting! As previously, I'm really pleased with the finished result. I do wonder if the large, battered plate is the original for the Lambretta? I'll be keeping hold of it regardless. At least the new one isn't riddled with holes, and matches the number plate mounting plate perfectly. 

@LightBulbFun, onto your questions. I chatted to the chap who makes up and paints the plates. I didn't catch his name, but he's an older fella and employee rather than business owner. 

He reckons they still own all the dies/presses which they used previously so in theory could recreate a plate they made from whichever decade the customer chooses. He said they could definitely press a '1' as shown on VPF. He wasn't familiar with the 'p' style but maintains they'd still have the gear to press it if they produced it originally. He thought it looked more like Bluemels rather than an Ace plate? I guess 99.999% of the population are less fussy! 😅.

I also discussed borders and he seemed to think the the square edged border was only available on a 5" width plate (i.e. 1920s era). I pointed out REV is mid 70s so much more modern* - do you know what width the plates are? I'd imagine they're less than 5" though. 

I get the impression that many of the dies/presses are sat on the shelf but haven't been used for many years. I do wonder if the business owners and staff are unaware of the full extent of what they've got sat on the shelf.

I'd say Tippers are still your safest bet nationally to get something made which is virtually identical to original purely because they've never sold or scrapped their equipment over the years....

[pilninggas]

I've got a RA TG300S. It's a lovely thing and not a bad replica of the old Innocenti Lambs.

Goes like a stabbed rat, brakes well, 100mpg and holds on to modern traffic on a run.

Nice metal body too. 

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, Dick Longbridge said:

New plate ordered yesterday, and collected from Tippers this morning, fresh from painting! As previously, I'm really pleased with the finished result. I do wonder if the large, battered plate is the original for the Lambretta? I'll be keeping hold of it regardless. At least the new one isn't riddled with holes, and matches the number plate mounting plate perfectly. 

@LightBulbFun, onto your questions. I chatted to the chap who makes up and paints the plates. I didn't catch his name, but he's an older fella and employee rather than business owner. 

He reckons they still own all the dies/presses which they used previously so in theory could recreate a plate they made from whichever decade the customer chooses. He said they could definitely press a '1' as shown on VPF. He wasn't familiar with the 'p' style but maintains they'd still have the gear to press it if they produced it originally. He thought it looked more like Bluemels rather than an Ace plate? I guess 99.999% of the population are less fussy! 😅.

I also discussed borders and he seemed to think the the square edged border was only available on a 5" width plate (i.e. 1920s era). I pointed out REV is mid 70s so much more modern* - do you know what width the plates are? I'd imagine they're less than 5" though. 

I get the impression that many of the dies/presses are sat on the shelf but haven't been used for many years. I do wonder if the business owners and staff are unaware of the full extent of what they've got sat on the shelf.

I'd say Tippers are still your safest bet nationally to get something made which is virtually identical to original purely because they've never sold or scrapped their equipment over the years....

Thank you very much for badgering him for me getting back to me on that  

the question about the 1, was not to do with VPF, but Tippers own 1 as seen on KPU and REV, and why they dont use it anymore unless requested, thanks to work by @AdgeCutler I was able to confirm they do still have the Tippers 1 die as seen on his fresh plates for KPU147J, but for some reason they dont use it by default anymore, and I am curious why not, again just a personal curiosity this one! the important thing is that they do still have it!

 

and yeah VPF is not a Tippers plate thats for sure, so its likely they wont have the gear for it sadly, since they did not produce it originally, the only way they could do is if they somehow got their hands on an Ace plates dieset at some later point in time

(so its curious how he says they can do the VPF's 1 but I wonder if he simply did not notice how it differed from the Tippers 1)

im pretty VPF is not bluemels as bluemels dont have serifs like that, but ill let @MorrisItalSLX or Stuart confirm or deny that LOL

only REV is a tippers plate  

 

interesting to hear on the square edged boarder, as you say REV is very much not from the 1920's!, between 1967 and 1978 (end of production) Invacar pretty much exclusively used Tippers number plates (which is not surprising, Tippers was based in Southend and Invacar was not that far away!)

and all the retroreflective ones where square bordered like REV's are (Pre 1st January 1973 plates, where all white on black and boarder-less like KPU)

(I do wonder if Tippers still have any old order records from Invacar Ltd, they would of been ordering 200 plates at a time so where not a customer to be sniffed at)

I am not sure exactly how wide the plates are on REV but I know they are about standard size for a car number plate, I dont THINK they are anything special in that regard

1 hour ago, Dick Longbridge said:

I get the impression that many of the dies/presses are sat on the shelf but haven't been used for many years. I do wonder if the business owners and staff are unaware of the full extent of what they've got sat on the shelf.

indeed I wonder how much has been "lost" from when they where Southend based and then moved up to Cornwall, and when I say lost I dont mean physically lost

but lost in the sense of the way things where done, maybe the Cornwall people dont realise that Tippers always used the serif 1 back in the day for example

 

but im glad to hear that they think that they do have all their own old die-sets from back in the day, so in theory they should be able to do they correct squared boarder!

we just need someone to place an order and find out!

[Cavcraft]

2 hours ago, I_am_Diesel said:

I've just bought a brand new RA GP300. It's an absolute blast, I highly recommend them. People mistake it for my Lambretta GP200. 

 

Lovely! Even some of the (ridiculous) badge snobs are turning to them now.

[I_am_Diesel]

I also have these, so the badge snobs can GTF.

[Dick Longbridge]

47 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

I  wonder how much has been "lost" from when they where Southend based and then moved up to Cornwall, and when I say lost I dont mean physically lost

but lost in the sense of the way things where done, maybe the Cornwall people dont realise that Tippers always used the serif 1 back in the day for example

This. I think a lot of the knowhow from the previous setup and experienced staff has gone. Some of the die sets are essentially dusty paperweights. It would be interesting to see just how tightly they could be pinned down to replicate a period plate which the old-school Tippers once produced. Much as the product is of a pretty good quality (and speedy service), I got the impression that they'd prefer not to spend time chatting about their products and just crack on with getting the orders processed. It's a bit of a shame for a company with their history but they always look to be working flat out whenever I'm in there, so I guess they're working to the max with their staffing. 

Do you remember when there was a big thing on social media a couple of years ago when a lass ordered a Tippers plate for her classic motor and the finished product was a bit substandard? The response from one of the co-owners was less than professional and he basically told her to sod off. Once she mentioned it on antisocial media and people got sharing, the co-owner turned things around very quickly and re-made her plates, apologised and sent a huge bunch of flowers to her door. They're a bit conflicting with their business model really. 

[Dick Longbridge]

Whoops. WU will have a stablemate as of next week at some point. Another 1960 series 2 Lambretta Li150 - this one came over from Italy a couple of years ago, is original and on the road. Some proper patina going on - what a stunner! 

 

[Dick Longbridge]

Whilst I'm awaiting delivery next week, I'm trying to decipher this transfer on the legshields. Kalla? Kalis? I'm assuming the writing lower down states 'Torino'. I need to dig a bit deeper but I get the impression at this point that this will be the only clue as to which part of Italy the Lambretta originated from. 

Another nice detail is this 60s Italian map which has remained with the scooter. Is that Turin/Torino written at the bottom again? Was Turin the place for industry such as printing books and maps at that time? 

 

[MiniMinorMk3]

14 hours ago, Dick Longbridge said:

Whilst I'm awaiting delivery next week, I'm trying to decipher this transfer on the legshields. Kalla? Kalis? I'm assuming the writing lower down states 'Torino'. I need to dig a bit deeper but I get the impression at this point that this will be the only clue as to which part of Italy the Lambretta originated from. 

 

 

 

Italia 61 is a district of Turin

It is named as such because the 1961 Expo was held there

Italia '61 - Wikipedia