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Most stupid message while flogging a shiter


Alan Prost

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I've not had too many idiots to deal with on the car front. My Corsa sold fairly quickly without much hassle (at basically scrap money), the Renault got traded in, first bloke to look at the Fiat bought it for the asking with no grief at all, few timewasters on the 206 and ended up getting haggled down fairly hard, but just wanted rid at that point.

We did get comeback on my dad's old PT Cruiser. Sold it with a very short MOT, just wanted shot of it after he got a cheap deal on a Juke through work. Good runner, didn't think it needed much (handbrake probably wanted a bit of work, maybe low pads as well) but due to circumstances at the time we hadn't put it through a test. Lovely couple came and looked at it the day after we listed it on Facebook Marketplace (through my account), took it on a drive round a private test track*, paid not far off the asking, off they went in it. I got a long message from them at work the next day after they saw the fail sheet, must've been about 20 items on there - think they thought we'd had it looked at and decided it wasn't worth bothering with, but we honestly hadn't. Even worse news for them - they parked it on the street when they got home. Next morning, it was picked up by a camera car of some description for not having an MOT, we had to forward the fine onwards. While we did feel sorry for them, they knew what they were getting into and the risks involved.

This was three years ago and apparently it's still around.

Tech wise... oh christ, I've had every sort of timewaster going. I'd estimate a good 1/3 of people who ask for the address to come and collect something disappear without a trace. Part of me wonders whether they're just looking for an address and a time where I'm not in so they can help theirselves.

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Ive little sympathy with a lot of the buyers you’ve described on  these posts. A £325 car that wants work... whatever next! 

I don’t understand why people think on the purchase of a car costing a few hundred quid they have any recourse whatsoever. Whether it’s the rise of consumer rights or just that people haven’t got a clue these days I don’t know. Advice as ever is, know what you are doing or take someone who does, if you need your hand holding through the entire process then perhaps £2-300 a month on a lease is the best suggestion for you.

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47 minutes ago, Markeh said:

Tech wise... oh christ, I've had every sort of timewaster going. I'd estimate a good 1/3 of people who ask for the address to come and collect something disappear without a trace. Part of me wonders whether they're just looking for an address and a time where I'm not in so they can help theirselves.

That is exactly what they'll be doing.  I recall a story from the banger racing world of a guy who saw a rare classic for sale on a banger racing website, contacted the seller and made all the right noises, then as soon as he'd got the seller's address said he was no longer interested.  Within a couple of days the car had been lifted and was on the grid at a meeting a few months later.

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24 minutes ago, Pieman said:

That is exactly what they'll be doing.  I recall a story from the banger racing world of a guy who saw a rare classic for sale on a banger racing website, contacted the seller and made all the right noises, then as soon as he'd got the seller's address said he was no longer interested.  Within a couple of days the car had been lifted and was on the grid at a meeting a few months later.

I suppose that’s a minority I guess, unless it’s for a specific classic race then you’d not want to chance your back on a badly welded up crusty old Granada. A worrying amount of classics go missing though and there’s a plentiful supply of used parts for sale on eBay.

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56 minutes ago, sierraman said:

Ive little sympathy with a lot of the buyers you’ve described on  these posts. A £325 car that wants work... whatever next! 

I don’t understand why people think on the purchase of a car costing a few hundred quid they have any recourse whatsoever. Whether it’s the rise of consumer rights or just that people haven’t got a clue these days I don’t know. Advice as ever is, know what you are doing or take someone who does, if you need your hand holding through the entire process then perhaps £2-300 a month on a lease is the best suggestion for you.

That's fair enough, but if the seller has blatantly lied or over looked serious defects then they are partly responsible. Just saying 'it's an old car' doesn't excuse them, imho.  All within reason of course.

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4 minutes ago, Cavcraft said:

That's fair enough, but if the seller has blatantly lied or over looked serious defects then they are partly responsible. Just saying 'it's an old car' doesn't excuse them, imho.  All within reason of course.

That's true morally but private car sales are sold as seen, doesn't matter if it's 500 or 50k, once the cash is handed over it's tough titty.

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6 minutes ago, cort1977 said:

That's true morally but private car sales are sold as seen, doesn't matter if it's 500 or 50k, once the cash is handed over it's tough titty.

Not if they have intentionally mislead or lied to the buyer. The description must be accurate and the car roadworthy.

Obvs that then brings the issue of a civil claim for any redress which for a cheap car isn't worth it, a £50k  car though......

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I'm loving all the name checks on this thread 🙂

I do my best to avoid selling cars to the great unwashed. I've been quite lucky really although I have always been brutally honest in the adverts, listed every fault and included the phrase "if you want a perfect car to show off to your neighbours, look elsewhere.  If you just want a cheap car to get a to b then get bidding" or words to that effect. 

I sold a scruffy 405 estate with that description and the buyer actually said that it was better than he expected. 

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9 minutes ago, Cavcraft said:

That's fair enough, but if the seller has blatantly lied or over looked serious defects then they are partly responsible. Just saying 'it's an old car' doesn't excuse them, imho.  All within reason of course.

This is why I specifically ask. After saying, I'm not expecting perfection at this price. 

Are there any faults you know about? 

Does the clutch work properly?  Has it ever been replaced? 

Do the brakes work correctly? When was the last time it had new brake pads? 

Do all the lights work, do all the electrics work? 

 How often do you have to top up the oil?

How often do you have to top up the coolant? 

It doesnt stop people lying, but you'll spot 50% of those during a viewing, so if they said No, to the first question, you'll know that every other question is a lie. 

This is why I prefer to talk on the phone rather than text about a car.  You quickly get a feel by the time of the voice. 

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4 minutes ago, Wgl2019 said:

Not if they have intentionally mislead or lied to the buyer. The description must be accurate and the car roadworthy.

It is vanishingly unlikely that there will be any recourse on that.  All the seller has to say is "I didn't know, I'm not a mechanic" and that's the end of that.

And a car most definitely does not need to be roadworthy to be sold.  I've bought plenty* of cars that were nowhere near roadworthy.  Some intentionally to break for spears, some for reapers, and some because I didn't inspect them well enough.

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29 minutes ago, cort1977 said:

That's true morally but private car sales are sold as seen, doesn't matter if it's 500 or 50k, once the cash is handed over it's tough titty.

'Sold as seen' isn't legally recognised any longer. The term that appears to have replaced it is 'Taken in part exchange, I don't know anything about the car'.

Titty, whether tough or soft, doesn't matter, but being a 'front bottom' and deliberately having some one off does. 

 

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10 minutes ago, Talbot said:

It is vanishingly unlikely that there will be any recourse on that.  All the seller has to say is "I didn't know, I'm not a mechanic" and that's the end of that.

And a car most definitely does not need to be roadworthy to be sold.  I've bought plenty* of cars that were nowhere near roadworthy.  Some intentionally to break for spears, some for reapers, and some because I didn't inspect them well enough.

Two distinct things here....... Bear in mind I am talking about a seller intentionally lying or misrepresenting a car not just being a little bit clueless....

If the seller described the car in a certain way such as 'rust free' they cannot then claim to not know about a terminal rust issue, they have set their stall out. If they simply said 'good condition' then that's open to interpretation.

In terms of roadworthyness it's a criminal offence under the Road traffic act to sell an unroadworthy car unless you explicitly make the buyer aware (slightly more to it than that but that's the gist). This applies to private sellers and makes no mention of the sellers knowledge of any defects. Linky link: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/75

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The way that section of legislation is written, it seems to be referring to New vehicles rather than second-hand sales.

That said, all someone has to do is add spears or reapers to the desctription and that would seem to avoid any issues.  Similarly, if the car has a valid MOT certificate, that could be sufficient for the seller to claim it was roadworthy.

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In practice you’d put it down to experience, chasing the seller of a £350 car isn’t going to be found in your favour. I would say it’s based on what the reasonable expectation of the condition of a £350 car that cost £18,000 new. It would be expected by the average person to have faults, in inspecting and accepting it you would be satisfying yourself if it’s condition at the point of sale. A private seller wouldn’t owe you any duty of care as you say unless they had greatly misrepresented it, which in all likelihood is very unlikely. 

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James Ruppert's excellent Bangernomics book explained the consumer law (albeit in about 1990) and it has always stuck with me. 

Basically, yes consumer law does apply to private sales, but there is also the concept of reasonableness whereby it would unreasonable to expect a cheap old car to be fault free. As already pointed out the private seller is not required to demonstrate any expertise in mechanical matters when presenting a car for sale and realistically a seller isn't going to get any comeback if the clutch packs in five miles up the road. In theory the private owner should own up if asked about any faults, but it would have be demonstrated that they were being duplicitous, which can be difficult. On the other hand it doesn't hurt to ask hundreds of questions which should be answered honestly, even if the answer given is 'I don't know'.

You can sell an unroadworthy car, hence the What were they thinking, just scrap it thread, but it should be clear that the car being sold is in this state. I think a distinction is made between unroadworthy and no MoT though as even though most cars can't be used without an MoT it doesn't necessarily mean they are unroadworthy or unfit for sale. My motorbike is absolutely tip top condition but has no MoT because its fucking freezing and I don't fancy the 15 mile round trip to the test garage.

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1 hour ago, Wgl2019 said:

Not if they have intentionally mislead or lied to the buyer. The description must be accurate and the car roadworthy.

Obvs that then brings the issue of a civil claim for any redress which for a cheap car isn't worth it, a £50k  car though......

Pretty sure that's not true.

If I sell you something and misrepresent it then yes, I am open to a civil action for that misrepresentation, but that applies to any transaction for any goods.  You would need to prove that in court.

Just because it's a car makes no odds, private sales are not dealer sales and there is a vast difference between the two which it seems people find hard to understand hence all the demands for refunds from the clueless.  That legislation only applies to licensed motor traders not private sales.

IANAL, there are all kinds of bar room experts on PH and elsewhere where they go in to great detail on this but that is the law as i understand it.

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47 minutes ago, Cavcraft said:

'Sold as seen' isn't legally recognised any longer. The term that appears to have replaced it is 'Taken in part exchange, I don't know anything about the car'.

Titty, whether tough or soft, doesn't matter, but being a 'front bottom' and deliberately having some one off does. 

Yes agreed but that's not what I was suggesting.  Just saying that there is no redress in law for a private sale unless the seller can be proven to have mislead the buyer.  Which is practically impossible.

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Well traders is one thing, they do have some legal responsibility and a string of poor auction purchases could bankrupt a small time dealer I suppose.

27 minutes ago, Wgl2019 said:

Sorry, being frugal on the wordage!

Must be roadworthy unless clearly stated to the buyer. 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/75 

 

I appreciate that the wording seems clear there but to my knowledge such a requirement is neatly sidestepped by simply stating you're not an expert and don't know about the car as stated by others above.

There's pages and pages on PH and elsewhere about this https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=23&t=1771612 with the general conclusion that no one has ever successfully won a legal claim against a private seller.  As far as I know there is no redress in law for a private sale unless the seller can be proven to have mislead the buyer.

IANAL etc. etc.  Does anyone know of any case where a private buyer won such a dispute?

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3 minutes ago, cort1977 said:

IANAL etc. etc.  Does anyone know of any case where a private buyer won such a dispute?

That's the kicker.... Criminal law so by no means straightforward for an individual.... Charges would generally be by trading standards or Police (neither of whom are likely to be interested in a private seller). I would emphasise though that one's knowledge of cars is irrelevant, if selling an unroadworthy car you have to say so or you commit the offence, ignorance is not a defence.

Anyhow..... A moot point if it doesn't lead to anything but may be worth bearing in mind if anyone is selling away from the forum....

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5 hours ago, Markeh said:

 

Tech wise... oh christ, I've had every sort of timewaster going. I'd estimate a good 1/3 of people who ask for the address to come and collect something disappear without a trace. Part of me wonders whether they're just looking for an address and a time where I'm not in so they can help theirselves.

This. 
 

ive lost count of the times I’ve had someone interested in a car and the moment I’ve given them an address to come and view they’ve gone quiet. It got to one point where I’d move the car up to my unit if they didn’t show. No idea why because I’ve never really sold anything worth nicking, but still..... why bother? I tend not to give people my full address now. I’ll give them a close location to head to then tell them to call me when they’re there. If they do, great. If they don’t, no worries. But it bugs the crap outta me when they take your address then go silent. 

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3 hours ago, New POD said:

This is why I specifically ask. After saying, I'm not expecting perfection at this price. 

Are there any faults you know about? 

Does the clutch work properly?  Has it ever been replaced? 

Do the brakes work correctly? When was the last time it had new brake pads? 

Do all the lights work, do all the electrics work? 

 How often do you have to top up the oil?

How often do you have to top up the coolant? 

It doesnt stop people lying, but you'll spot 50% of those during a viewing, so if they said No, to the first question, you'll know that every other question is a lie. 

This is why I prefer to talk on the phone rather than text about a car.  You quickly get a feel by the time of the voice. 

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This is part of the reason I'm not changing cars so often. I  like buying them but I absolutely hate selling them.

When you used to buy old knackers out the yellow paper in the 90's it was just accepted that it was the buyers responsibility to be happy with what you bought . If you bought a Cortina for £200 and it turned out the rear passenger wheel was made out of a log painted with black and silver paint then it was your fault for not noticing it when you went to look at it. 

In fact taking these poor purchases on the chin gives you a good life lesson on making your own mind up on things and not being influenced by what the other person is telling you.

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Things have moved on though, seems these days most of the public are spoiled little bastards who thinks its not their responsibility to look after themselves. So it’ll never be their responsibility to take it on the chin and fix the 15 year old car they bought for 300 quid which broke down 4 months later. Fuck no, that’s down to the bloke who sold it to them on eBay before they ragged it senseless and never lifted the bonnet once. 

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