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Why are Classic Cars so expensive?


sierraman

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8 hours ago, Asimo said:

There is a world of difference between asking and selling prices and there seem to be many, many dreamers chasing the Mike Brewer pot of gold.

eBay scanning got me through lockdown and this sentence largely echoes my sentiment

Auction sale prices - largely extremely low. Asking prices on classifieds, insane. And they hang around a long time.

'Hoarding' I think explains price inflation - capital is getting zero to negative returns most places nowadays. Swallowing up cheap stuff on ebay, cleaning it and taking some nice photos is a fairly nice moneyspinner. Extremely frustrating for us as rent seeking has made its way to the old car market.

Has the market for old cars actually increased? Possibly... but I never see any on the roads. There is an argument that with all cars becoming more identical and boring, the market for retro motoring is increasing, but I can't see this actually happening in practice. At the end of the day, it's pretty crap. I often think I really just want a reliable, fast and non-smelly car... but after buying my first 'shit car' in 2011, I stick at it because it's dirt cheap, I don't drive much, it's fun and I learn stuff.

Interesting thread and I'm amazed this has not been broached before.

 

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Increasing rarity, nostalgia value, the market for 60s/70s car is people who have retired with a good pension, paid off the house, and have a few grand to spare on a hobby. Classic cars are invariably a second car kept as a hobby, so already geared towards the relatively wealthy. Performance models rise in value due to supply/demand and this in turn drags the value of cooking models up as their value in parts rises. What is quite odd is the speed at which 80s/90s cars have gone up in value, they've gone up at the same speed as the older stuff, suggesting more a drive towards investment as "tomorrow's classics" are always* going to go up in value.

Of late a huge increase in classic car telly, Flipping Bangers, Car SOS, Wheeler Dealers, etc. People like the idea of buying a rusty old car, filling and painting it and flogging it on for a profit. Much like 1960s/70s caravans which are pulled out of fields and restored filled with tat while ignoring the rotten frames and rusty chassis.

That and a lot of classic cars are just going straight from seller to seller. Look at that Volvo 245 in the eBay thread, fails MOT on masses of rot and long term owner sells it honestly for £770. Bought and immediately put back up for sale for £1700 as only needing a "small amount of welding" with the usual "very rare, appreciating classic,  MUST L@@k" nonsense.

I reckon the latest rise is pretty unsustainable. Your average 60s/70s car has trebled in value in under 10 years, stuff I was looking at buying in 2011 for £1000, would now fetch an easy £2-3k... There is also the fact that as there is now some money in "classic" cars a lot more cars are being "restored" for profit. @trigger's Dolly Sprint is a good example, £5k+ for a car with pop riveted sills...

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8 hours ago, cort16 said:

I think some of the white room places like KGF who sell low mileage nicely prepared stuff for high numbers makes people with higher mile not quite so nice stuff think they're worth more than they are. Some of the prices on carandclassic are laughable.

There's still some cool 90's stuff out there for not much money (mx-5. puma, MG ZS). Not much use if you like something with twin strombergs through,

 

I've had some great luck selling things on Car and Classic for extortionate amounts...

 

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I bought this Subaru for £100, gave it a wash and stuck it on car and classic for £3k.

 

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I sold it for £2300...

 

I won a Yaris in a roffle, swapped it for a Saab 900 which had been advertised on facebook marketplace for £900 for so long that the mot had lapsed.

 

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I mot'd it and stuck it on car and classic and it sold for £1800.

 

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I bought this other Subaru for £400 and sold it for £1200.

 

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This old LDV I bought for £400 and struggled to sell it via gumtree or FB marketplace but stuck it up on Car and Classic and got £800 for it.

 

Sticking stuff on there at an inflated price does seem to work sometimes!

 

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3 minutes ago, DodgyBastard said:

I've had some great luck selling things on Car and Classic for extortionate amounts...

Sticking stuff on there at an inflated price does seem to work sometimes!

"If it's on C&C it must be good and not an complete bag of shite, I mean the site has "classic" in the name..."

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12 minutes ago, DodgyBastard said:

Sticking stuff on there at an inflated price does seem to work sometimes!

It's all about presentation and giving someone the confidence that they are not going to put their hard earned into a bag of nails. Location comes into it too. Where I am is quite a small market. I used to shuffle things to my parents in the South East and bingo, I've increased my potential market by 15 fold and to one with far more money.

I found it hard work, but enjoyable and on the cusp of having another go. As mentioned already, better than having the cash sitting in the bank and watching it eroded by QE.

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Most classic car mags have become progressively more obsessed with car values rather than their aesthetic, driving, engineering or nostalgic  appeal.  A decade or so ago the same mags may have included a handy table of typical classic car prices. Now it's often that plus several pages analysing auction results, trends and picking future investment opportunities i.e. they are trying to talk the market up.  Everyone to their own of course but that sort of nonsense leaves me cold and stops me buying said magazines.  I can see the logic of buying a cheap filthy heap, cleaning it and selling it on for a profit. At least potential buyers can then see what they are getting in to more easily. I will shy away from anything which has had a cheap respray and underseal (probably structural) plastered on underneath.  Scene fever also drives prices up.  I hate scene stuff which is why I never make a profit and don't care either.

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23 minutes ago, captain_70s said:

Of late a huge increase in classic car telly, Flipping Bangers, Car SOS, Wheeler Dealers, etc

+ Youtube. It can create a buzz around almost any car. 

I think the tactic is the same as it's always been for us lot. What are the genuinely unfashionable cars? They're still cheap, whatever the era.

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5 minutes ago, egg said:

+ Youtube. It can create a buzz around almost any car. 

I think the tactic is the same as it's always been for us lot. What are the genuinely unfashionable cars? They're still cheap, whatever the era.

Most cars sitting between 12 and 20 years old. Too plentiful for there not to be another decent one around and looked down upon as just an old car. It's still a mystery to me how most people have brand new shiney cars, or is it all on the drip?

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11 minutes ago, egg said:

What are the genuinely unfashionable cars? They're still cheap, whatever the era.

 

3 minutes ago, The_Equalizer said:

Most cars sitting between 12 and 20 years old. 

Pretty much this. Brand has very little to do with car popularity now, age is the deciding factor. Newer = better. While certain cars like BMW, Audi and Range Rover have some badge prestige above others I dare say a brand new Kia Sportage will be more highly approved than a 15 year old Mercedes in the works car park.

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Answer to thread title/question: because speculation, as in the the financial futures kind.

A car becomes more rare, maybe it was rare already, maybe they become thin on the ground.

There is a kind of mad cycle between what some people will pay now to get a rare classic because they are worth it to the collector, then people start paying more because they think it will be worth increasingly more in the future, so they appear to be worth more.

A YouTube video by Economics Explained even uses cars to explain speculation, I'll see if I can find the video in thinking of. But he talks about how a classic Lamorghini is worth X times more than a new Toyota Corolla, yet in every actual measurable way the Corolla is a better vehicle for personal transportation; better safety, better economy, better reliability, often more performance etc etc

Yet the Lamborghini is worth more because people think it's a classic, love it more, see it as motoring history etc etc and slap a bigger price on it. Then it becomes an asset to keep until it's got an even bigger price on it.

I'm paraphrasing but that's the jist that I understand.

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On 11/8/2020 at 8:25 PM, egg said:

+ Youtube. It can create a buzz around almost any car. 

I think the tactic is the same as it's always been for us lot. What are the genuinely unfashionable cars? They're still cheap, whatever the era.

Nineties stuff is still cheap for the most part apart from the halo models, where values are in some cases climbing (e.g. Pug 306 GTi-6 and Rallye). My 850 T5 can't be worth more than a grand.

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Just as an example, my boss bought a really nice E30 325 a while ago, 99% of the time it sits under a sheet in his warehouse, so not costing him any extra in storage. His reasoning being he made something like £80 on £20,000 in a "high interest" account over a year, so buying the car and selling it a few years later makes more money than money does.

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2 minutes ago, bunglebus said:

Just as an example, my boss bought a really nice E30 325 a while ago, 99% of the time it sits under a sheet in his warehouse, so not costing him any extra in storage. His reasoning being he made something like £80 on £20,000 in a "high interest" account over a year, so buying the car and selling it a few years later makes more money than money does.

Is the conclusion of this thread basically that the classic car has recently become an investable asset as opposed to something to be enjoyed?

You never know, could be light on the horizon. The bubble of insane prices for ridiculous vehicles has got to burst eventually. This forum has generally revolved around cheap old cars - it's very inefficient purchasing and storing these (i.e. purchase/sale/storage costs are a more significant proportion of the car's value), and the likelihood of any actually naturally appreciating is pretty small. Sure, he could make money, but could also lose a lot.

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Possibly, he's just looked at the market and decided the car is a better bet than his bank account. I can't see him losing money anyway.

Opposite his warehouse is a newly opened classic(ish) dealer who buys only the best condition cars to prep, display and sell. Going by the investment made in the facilities, he must be doing something right. Can't say I particularly like the bloke though, the cars are just a value to him whereas to me they're interesting old vehicles

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You could buy an old classic but unless you’ve the ability to repair it yourself it’s going to cost you. Plus cost of parts, as soon as the bottomless pockets of the yuppies get into it the prices of spares goes through the roof. Take cassette tapes before the hipsters got into them you couldn’t give them away, now even a Engelbert Humperdinck tape is worth £11 million quid. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
14 minutes ago, Conan said:

Had they been able to keep afloat for another 17 years they would be able to make a profit!

Just about! They are about 440 grand now, I think the 420 grand might have been better invested in just about anything else for that sort of return. 

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Can you still buy a 1990 Skyline GT-R in the UK? Guy is trying to sell one  here in NZ, from the blurb, it's a bit of a shitebox... He wants just under 28 thousand quid for it. It's due for the equivalent of a MOT in January.

 

Pretty much still factory has had radiator replaced due to a blockage in the previous one and air-con has been removed. Drivers side door has small gap doesn't quite close flush. Interior is still pretty tidy for its age. Had oils and fluids replaced not long ago along with fuel filter.

Just in the last week started having an issue where revs will fluctuate and will sometimes cause it to stall. Its currently being looked at and will update when I get it back. Seems to be missing every so often so potentially something like a dodgy coil.

If you want any more pictures or info just ask. Had a few requests for more pictures so will try get as much as I can. Sorry its a little dirty right now.

 

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On 11/14/2020 at 1:13 PM, bunglebus said:

Just as an example, my boss bought a really nice E30 325 a while ago, 99% of the time it sits under a sheet in his warehouse, so not costing him any extra in storage. His reasoning being he made something like £80 on £20,000 in a "high interest" account over a year, so buying the car and selling it a few years later makes more money than money does.

Yes, but he would make a lot more than £80 a year if he rented out that secure dry storage space to someone else with a classic, and he wouldn't have had to buy the car in the first place.  

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19 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

Yes, but he would make a lot more than £80 a year if he rented out that secure dry storage space to someone else with a classic, and he wouldn't have had to buy the car in the first place.  

Possibly true - but as it's within a unit that's also used for his business as well as two sub-letters, there's always the risk of damage etc. If it happens to his car that's his problem, if it was someone else's it would be a more difficult situation. 

Interesting idea all the same though

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4 hours ago, 1duck said:

Or this saga of woe. Coy's went bust (again) and took a lot of sellers money (again).  

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=63&t=1794090

Seems turning a valuable classic 'asset' into cash can be pretty difficult sometimes.

Unlike shares cars are a pretty illiquid asset...but...they do not attract capital gains tax, similar to antiques...its why vintage watches and old Leica cameras etc have such high prices. It's an investment the tax man has chosen not to get at. But cameras, watches and art are easier to store and trade. 

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39 minutes ago, lesapandre said:

Or this saga of woe. Coy's went bust (again) and took a lot of sellers money (again).  

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=63&t=1794090

Seems turning a valuable classic 'asset' into cash can be pretty difficult sometimes.

Unlike shares cars are a pretty illiquid asset...but...they do not attract capital gains tax, similar to antiques...its why vintage watches and old Leica cameras etc have such high prices. It's an investment the tax man has chosen not to get at YET.

FTFY

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4 minutes ago, bunglebus said:

Possibly true - but as it's within a unit that's also used for his business as well as two sub-letters, there's always the risk of damage etc. If it happens to his car that's his problem, if it was someone else's it would be a more difficult situation. 

Interesting idea all the same though

My point was just that he could earn more money out of the storage space.  Loss/damage/insurance is a separate issue.

FWIW In my area, a basic tatty lockup is about £500 a year if you can find one, self storage units for furniture etc. are about £750 a year so decent storage for a classic could well be £1000 a year.  As has been said upthread somewhere, very few classic cars appreciate at £1000 a year.   In the short term I think most  just about hold their value, so if you are buying for investment you are gambling on maybe 10 years ahead.   Admittedly you might have fun with the car in the meantime.   

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