Am I sick or just plain stupid?

[barrett]

As you might have seen from my fleet thread, I recently sold my Humber Sceptre by mistake. I got a little bit of cash back towards a debt I'm owed, and I also got paid a £250 'bonus' for managing to do my job despite strained circumstances over the last few months (this is cold comfort considering how grossly underpaid I am for the other 11 months of the year but that's another story). Basically I now have a fat envelope of cash sitting here which is absolutely definitely going to be put towards a deposit on a house at some point in the future.

I'm also trying to sell my 404 (which I own 50 per cent of with my colleague). We 'borrowed' £11,500 to buy the Riley Nine last year, from various people, on the basis that it would be paid back when the Peugeot sells. Of that £11,500, about £2000 was actually 'borrowed' from myself for money put aside for general car fixing and holidays and house deposit. Say the thing actually sells for £20k I'm going to end up with £4250 after the Riley has been paid off, plus the £2k back from my loan to myself, so I'll be sitting on the best part of £10k. This will definitely, absolutely be going towards a deposit for a house at some point.

But... I CANNOT stop thinking about this thing.

It's a low-mileage import from Jersey and it's been off the road for decades, but is advertised for a not unreasonable £3500 (so, let's say £3000 if I catch the guy at the right moment). I have wanted one of these since I read about Buckley using one as a daily back in the 90s. I am fully aware that Lancia parts don't come cheap, and that it will need somebody half competent to do a thorough recomissioning job on it, but surely just getting it running, driving and registered would add another couple of grand to the price? The interior looks perfect, and I reckon that paint would come back with a bit of work and some careful touching-in. What's it worth then? £5k still, probably? Is there any market for an ugly weird saloon car in the UK, even one as technologically brilliant as this?

I'm in a position to buy it (almost) and actually get it on the road, but am I just gonna be pissing away my entire life 'savings' for no reason or am I gonna come out of it with a few quid in my pocket? I know buying cars as investments is pretty crass, but it's not like I don't want to own a Flavia Berlina, I just want to own it for a year or two and then flog it. Having money in the bank is pointless, frankly, and the only way I've ever made money in my life is buying and selling cars and parts so I know I'm not totally shit at it.

Is this in any way sensible, or am I just suffering from 'full wallet syndrome' and having a pavlovian reaction to holding some folding? I'd probably be much better off just putting aside £1000 and buying something from the 80s which I can run around in for a bit and sell easily, but the trouble is almost everything I like is 'real money' these days. I would love to pick up a £500 Maxi or a £1200 P6 2200 but they're not really out there anymore, and things that are in that sort of price range just leave me feeling cold.

I could also put a bit of money into getting my BX sorted, but with the best will in the world a BX is never gonna be worth more than £1500 and I reckon I could easily spend a grand getting it on the road and then what... I don't really plan to sell it as it's my dream example and pretty well irreplaceable, but I ain't ever getting back what I put in to it.

so, am I being stupid or just typically indecisive? Should I do myself a favour and grow the F up by pooling my resources with Ms_Barrett and buying an actual place to live (which is a better investment than any rusty old shitheap car)?? Should I pull my finger out and get an engine built for my Austin Seven Special and get the Palladium finished off? Sack off cars for good???

I hate having money in my pocket!

Advice please!

[Out Run]

House > Cars.

Once sorted with your own roof over your head, you will know what you can realistically afford, in terms of cars to play with.

You don’t need to go full cold turkey, just prioritise the important stuff.

[Soundwave]

That ^ is sound advice.

Also bear this in mind - it's never "just a couple of grand" to sort a car. You start digging and I'll wager it'll be like a bag of Walker's under there - very crispy, with masses of air where you'd expect solid matter to be.   (Seriously Walker's, give me some fucking crisps with my bag of air please!)

[barrett]

I dunno, looks pretty damn solid underneath considering it's a Lancia...

[strangeangel]

You and Mrs_Barrett buy a house; one with a garage. It's great and everything, but to anyone not wearing rose-tinted specs that Lancia is a bottomless money pit. Even if it is sound, you'll have it all on finding parts, and they will cost £££ assuming they exist. You've already got some worthy projects to work on, my advice would be to focus on those, and as for your BX:

 

1 hour ago, barrett said:

with the best will in the world a BX is never gonna be worth more than £1500 and I reckon I could easily spend a grand getting it on the road and then what... I don't really plan to sell it as it's my dream example and pretty well irreplaceable, but I ain't ever getting back what I put in to it.

 

 

Join the club M8... you've seen mine - the lovely, scabby, dented old thing; over the past few years I've spent nearly four grand on keeping it alive and if put up for sale it'd be worth, what, £500? But what price do you put on enjoyment? And, on a practical level, a BX is justifiable in the face of a mortgage as a daily driver - mine is my 'modern' 🤣

 

I dunno; all I'm (somewhat inarticulately) trying to say is strike a balance - most people in a position to buy their own home are better off doing so, and if reigning in the old car habit (without sacking it off completely) is needed for that to happen, then it's not the worst thing in the world.

 

[barrett]

I should probably have made it clear than buying a house is some years off in the future, at least, and will inovolve quite a serious change of life for me as it's unlikely I could carry on in my current job because I could never afford to buy anywhere to live within commuting distance. The dream would be to sack it all off and move somewhere warm and run a B&B or whatever, but thanks to my freedom of movement being forcibly taken off me that seems increasingly unlikely. In any case, I could just have the cash sitting in my bank earning 0% interest for the next few years, or 'invest' it in the meantime and do something fun like drive about in an old Lancia.

Sensible answers are sensible, though

[motorpunk]

You’re asking the wrong people, and the wrong people are still not jumping up and down at the idea. If the likes of us shiters can’t back you up with what is a clear case of “heart over head” then what does that tell you? Honestly, it makes no sense at all financially, and (as you’re asking) it looks like an ugly, unloveable money pit to me, but if you love it, you go for it.
 

Good luck. 😎

[Ghosty]

It's a Lancia. It's pretty, but HOUSE. Security matters. 

[wuvvum]

If I had £3k in my pocket I'd be on that Lancia like a tramp on chips, but then I am an idiot. 

[vulgalour]

From my limited exposure to them, enthusiasts of pre-1970ish Lancias are funny about cars and their condition so if you keep it all as absolutely original as possible you'll be okay.  Diverge even slightly from what Lancia intended with one of the ugly saloons and you've got a weight around your neck when it comes to moving it on.  There's not exactly a huge market for these things in the UK, they tend to sit around waiting for a buyer for quite some time even at a good price.  Mike has the arguably more desireable (in the UK) Flavia Coupé and its lack of originality basically means nobody wants it, and the people that do want it don't want to pay much for it, which is a shame because it has potential written through it like a stick of seaside rock even though it's been in bits for the last five years.  This rule doesn't seem to apply to the 60s/70s Fulvia coupé for some reason, where modification seems to be much more acceptable.

But then, this is very much a case of when will you find another?  If it's something you really want and the cash is there for it then you're going to regret not doing it, regardless of man maths etc.

Buy it because you want it, not because of potential returns or potential losses.  If you want it and you can reasonably make it happen then do it.  If you can't, then don't.  From the few pictures posted it does look like an ideal light recommissioning sort of a thing to be enjoyed just as it is really.  I gather it's the brakes that are the only really difficult thing to sort out on these due to using some odd double-servo set up with a complicated mechanical valve block thing to balance it all, everything else is gettable with patience, and if you can sort out a Palladium you should be fine with this thing.  Interior, glass and brightwork are going to be your real headache and it sounds like this one is pretty good on that front.

[Mr Pastry]

I know my way around these, as I worked on them (when I couldn't avoid it) back in the day, indeed I met the great Harry Manning and various other Lancia celebrities.

Nobody wants the saloons although they are just as capable as the coupes - practically the same under the skin.  They are interesting cars, super things to drive when working properly, with lots of character, but if you buy one you will be stuck with it for ever.

The body doesn't look too bad,  but the underside photo may be misleading.  The floors do not  usually rot badly, you need to look at the rear chassis rails, boot floor, front subframe and mountings.

I can't see an exhaust system in the picture.  Has it even got one?  They are low-slung and vulnerable.   The engine is fairly simple though inaccessible, and not totally bomb-proof.  I would want to hear it running - think big ends and timing chain.  Don't even consider one with Kugelfischer injection.  Gearboxes are generally OK,  though a clutch change is  quite a major job. 

Suspension, wheel bearings, steering and driveshafts are all massively built but unobtanium, and fairly unpleasant to cope with.  No idea of the current spares position, but I doubt if it is good or cheap.  As Vulgalour says, the brakes are the biggy.  They will absolutely not work if it has been standing, the servo is a horrible design and technically difficult/expensive to update, though it can be done.

It will need a bit more than light recommissioning, and they did not have a great reputation for reliability when new.   In case you are wondering, no amount of beer tokens would tempt me to go anywhere near it, but any other questions, please ask.

Just run away IMO.

[paulplom]

You've come to the wrong place if you want to be talked out of it imo.

Just buy it and get it on the road. It'll not need an mot, just make sure it's safe.

A house or money in the bank won't make us on here envious but bombing about in that will. And as a bonus you'll look cool AF.

You're only here once and not for very long in the grand scheme of things.

[Luxxo Waftybarger]

Buy it if you want it but not if you think this (or any other old shit car) is going to make you any money. 

[Split_Pin]

Your current car/money situation sounds very complicated.

I'd get it locked away in a term deposit account and get a house. Cars can come after that.

Yes, life is short but keeping things simple is one of my keys to peace of mind.

Just my opinion of course. Most people think I'm boring but now that I'm comfortable with the fact that they probably don't know me at all, I'm a lot happier!

[New POD]

6 hours ago, barrett said:

I should probably have made it clear than buying a house is some years off in the future, at least, and will inovolve quite a serious change of life for me as it's unlikely I could carry on in my current job because I could never afford to buy anywhere to live within commuting distance. The dream would be to sack it all off and move somewhere warm and run a B&B or whatever, but thanks to my freedom of movement being forcibly taken off me that seems increasingly unlikely. In any case, I could just have the cash sitting in my bank earning 0% interest for the next few years, or 'invest' it in the meantime and do something fun like drive about in an old Lancia.

Sensible answers are sensible, though

Might I ask, exactly how old are you? 

Time flies by. In 25 years time will you still be wanting to run a bnb? 

I read your first post and thought. This man needs to make classis cars a full time job.  

But no. I think you need to document how you are going to raise that deposit for that BNB.  Work on the long term.goal and don't get distracted.

[sierraman]

I don’t know if you are married or whatever but there’s a saying ‘Happy wife.. happy life’

Im fairly incompetent when it comes to women but even an idiot like me would say the wife/other half would be fairly cheesed off you’d spent £5,000 on a car absolutely nobody wants. In fact I’d go as far as to say you’ll be living in it. On your own.

[bunglebus]

You can sleep in a car but you can't drive a house

[yohan]

Ha, I wake up this morning to find Barret in the same mind screwing situation as me. So you are not alone in this difficult decision sir!

I have a partner and 2 kids, we rent a place at a very good price but we know we need to move soon and weirdly, buying a place will be a cheaper in the long run then renting up here. Since rent is ridiculously high here and there is currently help to buy/shared equity schemes from the government. So we are trying to save for a deposit...

Im self employed and at the beginning of the year I downsized to become more efficient. This started to improve my income until the plague hit in march. Then it got hard so I had to look at what else caused me to have no money. I looked outside at my Lada and knew with a heavy heart that it had to go. A huge amount of money went into it and I got very little back. But it was better then spending more money.

Now I am really missing the Lada. This is the longest time in over 10 years that I havnt had my hobby of tinkering on an interesting car and its driving me mad! Trying to comfort myself with common sense and logic doesnt help.

So I would say. You have plenty projects, so enjoy the ones you have.. Its better then having none, whilst at the same time remembering that too much of a good thing can ruin it. 

On another story, a friend of mine badly wanted a nissan s200 again, which meant I had to fix it because it was i a bad state. Within a year he had bought another 8 because he thought he could make a profit selling them after i had done them up. That ended up with more then one big credit card bill and in the end he only just broke even.

 

[Six-cylinder]

Only own/return to the road a Lancia saloon for the enjoyment of it. It makes no financial sense at all, you are never going to get back all the money you spend on it.

It is hard work looking for parts and you will spend hours. You may end up searching overseas and paying carriage and waiting weeks.

The market is small for Lancia Saloons, I believe it is nothing to do with looks, just fashion!

So only do it if you want to enjoy the experience and have some money to spend on a leisure activity.

[eddyramrod]

Can you weld?  Have you got somewhere to work?  Only buy the Lancia if the answer to both these questions is a resounding, totally secure YES!  Don't think of making money on it, that'll just never happen.  If you haven't got a good, secure indoor workspace, concentrate on getting one, which realistically means buying an appropriate house.  After that, go back to the Lancia seller, because he will still have it!  Or come up here and buy Huggy.   (Not a totally serious suggestion, unlike everything else I just said!)

[sporty-shite]

I only got as far as "Jersey," and "off the road for decades"

I can only see a world of undiscovered grot, hard to find parts and an end result of a pretty, but undesirable car.  

Buy it, if you like it, but personally, I can't see any profit at all. 

[DoctorRetro]

I have one simple rule in this matter (even if I haven't always listened to it) :

Only spend or lend what you can afford to lose. 

Yeah, you have insurance and equity - but we know these things aren't absolute. 

 

If you could lose that £3-5k and not suffer, then do it. If you'll need it back at some point, don't. Simples. 

 

It's not exactly the same but not so long ago I borrowed a couple of hundred quid off a fellow 'shiter to save a car, on the proviso I paid it back once the car was sold. It was the most stressful few weeks of my life, and I still lost money on it when I sold it. All paid back I might add, but I'd never do it again. 

 

[Asimo]

F.F.S. give that Lancia a swerve.  

No point in stretching your resources that thin.  

Home first, then a garage to park the Palladium in, and some daily motor as required.  Sorted.

No happiness to be found with that Lancia unless you are someone both very wealthy and obsessed with restoring unpopular Lancias.

 

 

[Mr_Bo11ox]

I think if the Lancia is keeping you awake at night you should buy it. It seems to me that you're doing OK with your old cars, i don't know how old you are but I'm guessing late 20's. If you have managed to accumulate £10k in savings at that age despite earning a lousy wage and living in 'THE SOUTH' you're doing pretty well really and I reckon you should carry on doing whatever it is you're doing.

You might not end up turning a profit on the Lancia but I can't see you losing massively on it either, Its not like you are a novice with crusty old motors and am sure are well connected for help with it so you're not gonna end up losing your shirt on it. If you were not intending to buy a house imminently then the money is as well tipped into that than it is put in a bank account that pays f**k all. I think those cars are defo on an upward gradient value wise,- it might not be the steepest but its a long way from the sort of old shit I like messing with that is genuinely worthless whatever you do to it. Get it bought I say.

 

 

[sutty2006]

Deffo put the cash towards a house. Better investment in property than in cars, as much as we love them more than bricks n mortar. Had I been 10 years younger my advise would have been completely different 

[MikeR]

Given most of Jersey is less than  2 miles from  salty sea water ..

I would give it a swerve

[New POD]

2 hours ago, bunglebus said:

You can sleep in a car but you can't drive a house

I don't think the car will drive either. 

[Mr Pastry]

1 hour ago, Six-cylinder said:

So only do it if you want to enjoy the experience and have some money to spend on a leisure activity.

Said my piece already, but I got up this morning and read that, and fell about laughing.

For the avoidance of doubt, there is no aspect of working on a Flavia that can in any way be considered "a leisure activity" with the possible exception  of setting it on fire.

[Six-cylinder]

30 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

Said my piece already, but I got up this morning and read that, and fell about laughing.

For the avoidance of doubt, there is no aspect of working on a Flavia that can in any way be considered "a leisure activity" with the possible exception  of setting it on fire.

It is the sense of satisfaction of bring these cars back from the brink.

Ok I admit I have only done a Gamma and Trevi.

I have generous friends who have lent me far posher Lancia's including a beautiful 1972 1.3 Flavia saloon, 1.8 Flavia Zagato coupe and a B20. I love them but feel I can't afford to buy/repair any of them.

[Conrad D. Conelrad]

Now, I'm an optimist, and I always tend to assume things will work out in the end. If your plan was to buy a house in the next couple of years, of course the answer is to save for your deposit and not buy an old Italian car. But if house buying is a distant dream, years down the line, buy the car now. In a few years, when we're all pining for the good old days of 2020, before you had to pay a bank to keep your money in one of their accounts and when it was still worth bending down to pick up a dropped £5 note, you'll wish you had.