Further adventures of the Renault 6 - update p7 - Honin' In The Honeyard

[Twiggy]

This is absolutely fascinating ! If the worst comes to the worst and you`re unable to complete the job, take some comfort from  the fact that you have learnt an awful lot from all this. 

[Tadhg Tiogar]

1 hour ago, Twiggy said:

...., take some comfort from  the fact that you have learnt an awful lot from all this. 

With emphasis on the "awful"

[djoptix]

Yes, I have learned an awful dreadful French fiddly obscure NLA lot from this.

[djoptix]

It's the weekend which can only mean two things:

1. @TheDoctor will be putting up an ad for whatever he bought last weekend
2. there might be a bit of progress* on the R4 engine.

This is where I left it last weekend - head off, diesel in pistons. None has soaked through since last weekend (the lower level on #4 is just because I tried to knock it a bit with the diesel in it, which didn't work, but did shower me in diesel).

 

First thing to do was to take out all the head studs, number them, and put them away. Notice the interesting difference in oiliness between head studs - presumably stud 4 was sitting in the water jacket.

 

Next thing - rotate all the rockers to allow the pushrods out.

 

Which meant I could safely turn the head over without the head studs falling out/bending the pushrods. BEHOLD

 

This is the same way round as the engine underneath.

• #4 on the left is the grottiest
• #3 is the best
• #2 is bad, that's the one that had the water sitting in it
• #1 looks OK.

So I could now put the head out of the way, tip out the diesel (also took out the cam followers and put them in the pot with the pushrods) and TAPPY TAP TAP...

Pistons out! Let's keep going in the same cylinder order:

#4 - corrosion

 

#3 - really not bad at all

 

#2 - worse, but not as bad as #4

 

and #1, also not bad apart from that ring of deposits.

 

So in the "nothing ventured, nothing gained" spirit of this project, I got out the wire brush and had a good old go at cylinder #4, which had it looking much better. I decided that there was no sodding way I was doing this all by hand though. The wall felt much smoother, but there were some nasty bits of deeper corrosion that wouldn't shift with the brush - marked in the picture. That's right dudes, I annotate in magenta. Sue me.

 

So I broke out my Maplin Dremel* and switched to an 80 grit flap wheel. I was VERY gentle. Here's cylinder #4 afterwards, with the same area marked.

 

 

It's now smooth to the touch, but the flap wheel has also removed the varnish on the surface exposing some pitting underneath.

I reckon it will be OK. I'm going to see if I can order a finer larger flap wheel (50mm diameter, as the pistons are 55mm, and as fine a grit as possible - links welcome if you can suggest something) which I can put on my drill. Once the cylinders are smoothed off, I'll refit the pistons with new rings.

Here's piston #4. Pretty grotty but I think they will clean up.

 

Here's piston #1. I've wire-brushed the right hand side of the piston crown in this picture, whereas the left hand side has been left alone. You can easily see all the mucky deposits on the left - scraping my fingernail down over the rings, I can hardly feel the top one. Whereas in the area on the right, the ring can be clearly felt. Anyway, new rings have been ordered. I guess we're doing this!...

I think I need to clear out the water jacket before putting this back together. The head picture shows that some of the waterways are blocked, and the water pump when it came off was gummed up with something. I'm inclined to use the pressure washer to clean the head and block (around the liners). What are the hive mind's thoughts on this? Will that be OK if I douse it straight afterwards in diesel to inhibit corrosion?

 

[SiC]

Probably no worse than putting straight water in an engine when flushing it out?

[bunglebus]

Might be worth getting a load of biological washing powder in there too to dissolve stuff

[DoctorRetro]

10 minutes ago, djoptix said:

It's the weekend which can only mean two things:

1. @TheDoctor will be putting up an ad for whatever he bought last weekend
2. there might be a bit of progress* on the R4 engine.

This is where I left it last weekend - head off, diesel in pistons. None has soaked through since last weekend (the lower level on #4 is just because I tried to knock it a bit with the diesel in it, which didn't work, but did shower me in diesel).

 

First thing to do was to take out all the head studs, number them, and put them away. Notice the interesting difference in oiliness between head studs - presumably stud 4 was sitting in the water jacket.

 

Next thing - rotate all the rockers to allow the pushrods out.

 

Which meant I could safely turn the head over without the head studs falling out/bending the pushrods. BEHOLD

 

This is the same way round as the engine underneath.

• #4 on the left is the grottiest
• #3 is the best
• #2 is bad, that's the one that had the water sitting in it
• #1 looks OK.

So I could now put the head out of the way, tip out the diesel (also took out the cam followers and put them in the pot with the pushrods) and TAPPY TAP TAP...

Pistons out! Let's keep going in the same cylinder order:

#4 - corrosion

 

#3 - really not bad at all

 

#2 - worse, but not as bad as #4

 

and #1, also not bad apart from that ring of deposits.

 

So in the "nothing ventured, nothing gained" spirit of this project, I got out the wire brush and had a good old go at cylinder #4, which had it looking much better. I decided that there was no sodding way I was doing this all by hand though. The wall felt much smoother, but there were some nasty bits of deeper corrosion that wouldn't shift with the brush - marked in the picture. That's right dudes, I annotate in magenta. Sue me.

 

So I broke out my Maplin Dremel* and switched to an 80 grit flap wheel. I was VERY gentle. Here's cylinder #4 afterwards, with the same area marked.

 

 

It's now smooth to the touch, but the flap wheel has also removed the varnish on the surface exposing some pitting underneath.

I reckon it will be OK. I'm going to see if I can order a finer larger flap wheel (50mm diameter, as the pistons are 55mm, and as fine a grit as possible - links welcome if you can suggest something) which I can put on my drill. Once the cylinders are smoothed off, I'll refit the pistons with new rings.

Here's piston #4. Pretty grotty but I think they will clean up.

 

Here's piston #1. I've wire-brushed the right hand side of the piston crown in this picture, whereas the left hand side has been left alone. You can easily see all the mucky deposits on the left - scraping my fingernail down over the rings, I can hardly feel the top one. Whereas in the area on the right, the ring can be clearly felt. Anyway, new rings have been ordered. I guess we're doing this!...

I think I need to clear out the water jacket before putting this back together. The head picture shows that some of the waterways are blocked, and the water pump when it came off was gummed up with something. I'm inclined to use the pressure washer to clean the head and block (around the liners). What are the hive mind's thoughts on this? Will that be OK if I douse it straight afterwards in diesel to inhibit corrosion?

 

Oi! I've had the Tourer for nearly 6 months now, and the Fenlander will probably never sell. Are you just picking on me as Bramz7 is not around? ?

[scdan4]

Epic work.

get / borrow a bore honing tool as that keeps it all round. 

Looks like it’s worth trying to me. Get everything proper clean and more pictures please ?

 

[Tamworthbay]

I have a bore honing tool you are welcome to borrow if you are close enough, I am just north of Brum.

[Mr Pastry]

Looking good.  Deffo in with a chance. I wouldn't put diesel or anything oily in the water jacket to inhibit  after washing it out, just blow it all dry or stand it in front of a fan heater, then store it in a dry place.  Bores of course you can oil up.  + 1 for a honing tool.  

If the rings are stuck, apply a heat gun to the piston crown, or stand it on a hotplate, and as the piston expands the rings will spring out.  This is better than trying to lever or break them out, even though you are going to replace them, as it won't damage the piston. 

[djoptix]

You mean they already make a tool to do that?! That's going to make things a bit easier ?

I'll order a honing tool. Thanks @Tamworthbay but I'm in Bristol. 

[ETCHY]

Great progress.

I seem to recall previously you doubted your abilities, I think this shows you don't need to, sodding great job done, despite it fighting you every inch of the way !

[Fumbler]

Wow, that's cleaned up really good. Like super duper good! I imagine a hone would be all those liners need to look serviceable again. Excellent work.

[egg]

6 minutes ago, ETCHY said:

I seem to recall previously you doubted your abilities, I think this shows you don't need to, sodding great job done, despite it fighting you every inch of the way !

This. As I'm a forum member who makes exciting updates about changing wiper blades, this is proper stuff going on here. 

[Noel Tidybeard]

On 8/16/2020 at 6:51 PM, djoptix said:

Alas no. I did try that but it's been cunningly designed by a French man so that there's not quite enough slack to remove either sprocket. 

Bonus ineptitude, guess where I dropped the tensioner once I'd removed it;

1. On the bench - no problem

2. On the floor - no problem 

3. In a pile of sand ?

one of these options will have cushioned the fall

[Talbot]

6 hours ago, djoptix said:

I'm inclined to use the pressure washer to clean the head and block (around the liners). What are the hive mind's thoughts on this? Will that be OK if I douse it straight afterwards in diesel to inhibit corrosion?

I've regularly used a hot pressure washer on engine blocks to clean them up as much as possible.  The best anti-corrosive oil to use therafter is a blat of WD40 down the bores to disperse water from them, then mist everything with duck oil or similar.

Works.

[PhilA]

Yup. Just remember to wear proper goggles when using the pressure washer because all the crap hasn't got anywhere to go but back up out the hole it was in, towards you!

Pressure washer should clear the waterways nicely, though it might well shift water under the liner seal. You might want to do that as a matter of course. Hone that up and with new rings it should run.. might be a bit oily down the road but eh. Running's running. 

If you're feeling paranoid, measure the bores for ovality and taper and use that as an insight to whether you want to make a mix-n-match of parts from this and the other engine.

Good on you tackling it. It'll continue to fight, but I reckon that'll run again.

Phil

[Tadhg Tiogar]

16 hours ago, ETCHY said:

Great progress.

I seem to recall previously you doubted your abilities, I think this shows you don't need to, sodding great job done, despite it fighting you every inch of the way !

Agreed.

Actually getting the pistons to drop out cleanly like that is like a kind of catharsis.

The world's your oyster now.

[Zelandeth]

I reckon with a honing tool and some patience those liners will see service again.  Yes she might smoke a bit more than a brand new Prius, but I doubt enough to be a problem...and it's not like you're going to be commuting hundreds of miles a week in the car so topping up the oil occasionally isn't going to be the end of the world.

[Rocket88]

14 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

I reckon with a honing tool and some patience those liners will see service again.  Yes she might smoke a bit more than a brand new Prius, but I doubt enough to be a problem...and it's not like you're going to be commuting hundreds of miles a week in the car so topping up the oil occasionally isn't going to be the end of the world.

Engines that smoke /leak a bit get the benefit of being constantly fed new oil !

[djoptix]

Not much chance of doing things midweek, but I did indulge myself with half an hour in the shed to see if I could remove the rings and clean up a piston.

Before (ish - this is actually piston #1 whereas I cleaned #3, but the condition was similar). The bottom ring (the oil scraper) came out easily. The middle ring was quite reluctant but relatively easy. The top ring was properly stuck and I had to knock it out with a sharp drift (I did heat up the piston too, so that may have helped although it didn't free the ring entirely).

 

I did a general hand-wire-brush, and then used a brass brush on the Dremel to clean out the ring lands. Some of the deposits were quite well burnt on, and you can still see some in the third groove where the oil scraper ring would go. I'm not sure how far to take the cleaning here - I don't want to wear down the ring lands... thoughts?

 

I also brushed half the piston top. I don't know where the scratches could have come from...?

 

[djoptix]

Also... thank you for the encouragement chaps. It helps.

Obviously it would help even more if I had some encouragement from some smoking hot women who are all mightily impressed by my engineering prowess but I will take what I can get

[barefoot]

8 minutes ago, djoptix said:

Obviously it would help even more if I had some encouragement from some smoking hot women who are all mightily impressed by my engineering prowess ...

I am a smoking hot woman.

[djoptix]

3 minutes ago, barefoot said:

I am a smoking hot woman.

Thanks mate

[outlaw118]

I've got tits if that helps.

Great work btw.

[junkyarddog]

That piston is cleaning up nicely. 

Maybe stand it in a pot of petrol for a few days(or paint thinner)and it may help soften the remaining deposits. 

[djoptix]

2 minutes ago, junkyarddog said:

That piston is cleaning up nicely. 

Maybe stand it in a pot of petrol for a few days(or paint thinner)and it may help soften the remaining deposits. 

Yes.

I'm coming round to the idea that since I've come this far I might as well get things clean while I'm here. I might even paint the block...

[PhilA]

Yeah, you want to try get rid of those, small as they are, they represent the perfect starting point for more dirt to grip to and begin building up.

If the surface is clean, generally the dirt will wash away with the detergents in the oil if they sit in a corner. Stubbornly burned on deposits have the right chemical makeup for the dirt to cling.

Phil

[djoptix]

43 minutes ago, PhilA said:

Yeah, you want to try get rid of those, small as they are, they represent the perfect starting point for more dirt to grip to and begin building up.

If the surface is clean, generally the dirt will wash away with the detergents in the oil if they sit in a corner. Stubbornly burned on deposits have the right chemical makeup for the dirt to cling.

Phil

Armed with this knowledge I nipped out for another go. I scored round the corners of the ring lands with a sharp Stanley blade (gently) to dislodge the last bits, followed by a quick whiz with the Dremel. I reckon this is good enough.

[djoptix]

...and then my honing thing arrived.

Before:

 

After:

 

Hmph. It looks much worse ?

 

However, it does feel better. Before the cylinder was largely smooth but with some corrosion. Now it is uniformly a bit less smooth than before, but feels consistent over the whole cylinder (though it looks a lot worse).

I'm hoping that this is just because I've taken off the varnish and it will build up again over time?