project Enfield 8000 1970's Electric Car, Second Car Acquired

[LightBulbFun]

22 minutes ago, coalnotdole said:

The motor is horizontal and mid mounted in the transmission tunnel with a short propshaft and rotaflex coupling onto the (bond bug) rear axle.

Four 6v traction cells under the front bonnet and another four in the boot with an auxiliary battery under the rear seat to run the lights etc.

Original control system was done with a huge array of solenoids switching the 6v batteries in various combinations of series and parallel to provide voltage based speed control.

Due presumably to its previous ownership its had a lot of chopping and changing done to the wiring and currently has a Sevcon MOS90 controller fitted in place of the solenoids although the installation and wiring leaves a lot to be desired!

 

Thanks for that I'll take a look when I've got a moment, 

 

 

 

 

I'll be lazy and try to answer all the above questions in one post!

 

This car is chassis number 67 and was built in June 1974. The first 66 cars were ordered by the electricity council and used for their research project.

This car was registered by Joseph Lucas Ltd in Birmingham who owned it up until October 1986 at which point it was sold on to a lady who ran a funeral directors (the car was in fact registered to the funeral parlours address) She seems to have sold it around 2010 and passed away the following year aged 87.

It then went to a chap who bought a new set of batteries and used it daily to commute to work for about five years until around 2016 when he changed jobs, and its languished in the road outside his house with flat tyres and a missing rear window ever since. (I believe it features in LordSterlings spotted thread from a few years back)

A friend who's also into cars made me aware of it a year or two ago and I've made a point of knocking on the door whenever I've been in birmingham but never managed to catch the owner at home. I've hassled my friend regulary to go around and pop a letter through the door and during the start of lockdown he went round and saw the owner and managed to persuade him to sell. 

 

Condition wise the traction control wiring is a mess and appears to have been modified repeatedly so i'm assuming lucas probably used it to evaluate and test  EV systems. Its had its original throttle control and main power control systems removed along with the onboard charger and currently has a MOS90 motor controller fitted although the way its wired up makes me doubt this was done during its ownership by Lucas, Charging is curently setup to be done from a large external forklift truck charger but again the wiring is horrible with various battery cable terminals disconnected and just wrapped in electrical tape floating around under the car.

The chassis is suffering from serious corrosion around the front (hilman imp) subframe mountings and the sills have been badly replaced in the past and are also rotten along with most of the front floorpans. 

Dashboard wiring is hacked about a bit but should be fairly easy to return to standard. As its already missing its original control gear my plan is to use a modern control system (to begin with I may retain the MOS90) but make a decent job of integrating it with the original dashboard wiring, handbrake safety interlocks etc etc 

Depending on its performance I may look to either replace the motor with something more powerful or keep the motor but increase the voltage which is something they tried during the electricity council research project with good results.

I would like to go Li-on battery packs but think cost might be an issue. £1200 buys me a full complement of Trojan lead acid traction batteries, or one and a bit tesla battery segments of which i would need about six in total.....

 

Time wise its probably going to go into hibernation for a few months whilst i try to finish the capri which I've just ordered £1200 of panels for.....

 

 

 

On the island I think some would describe 25mph as excessive ?

 

ohh very interesting stuff! I appreciate the info  shame the original control system is gone, I bet it made a lovely noise in operation clicking and clunking away as you changed speed  

at least you can mess about with the control system now without feeling too bad about running the originality of it!

im curious do you know who made the motor etc? I assume its some massive brushed DC type?

 

interesting to see the weight is listed in the v5, im curious if that is with or without batteries (I know some electric vehicles have their weight/weigh classes decided with the batteries removed)

[barrett]

Amazing! I was aware of this car from various photos posted online, and even though I've never seen it in person it is one of my favourite bits of street furniture of all time. Seeing shit like that (well, nothing that good) parked up on the actual street is the sort of thing that drew me to this forum 10 years ago or whatever. There is something incredibly reassuring that in this current age of homogeneity and increasing NIMBYism, there are still weird old cars littering the roads, collecting moss and detritus and making boring old cunts tut with disapproval all over the land.

It's equally sad when these things disappear, as the one single thing that makes a boring suburban road in the West Midlands has now been removed, but the best possible outcome is that the car enters preservation with somebody on this forum so I can track its future progress. Lovely, heartwarming stuff. One million likes.

[Tadhg Tiogar]

27 minutes ago, coalnotdole said:

.... I would like to go Li-on battery packs but think cost might be an issue. £1200 buys me a full complement of Trojan lead acid traction batteries, or one and a bit tesla battery segments of which i would need about six in total.....

What would the weight comparison be of lead-acid, as opposed to Li-ion, batteries? Also charging time comparison?

[dollywobbler]

Excellent! I believe Mr Freeman of this parish has a fairly recent shot of it, looking very dejected. I thought it had been sitting for much longer!

[Craig the Princess]

I'd consider Lithium Iron (LiFe) batteries, they seem pretty generally available, are far cheaper than Lithium Ion but still offer s weight saving over lead acid.

[Zelandeth]

2 hours ago, Craig the Princess said:

I'd consider Lithium Iron (LiFe) batteries, they seem pretty generally available, are far cheaper than Lithium Ion but still offer s weight saving over lead acid.

This... they're a huge step up from lead acid and are far better suited to traction use. A good chunk lighter too.  Definitely what I'll be fitting to the C5 shortly.

[PhilA]

8hp is reasonable- figure milk floats had 5hp motors in and they'd keep up 25mph running off 48v.

Can't help but think a newer controller would help keep the heat down (if the motor is 8hp that's 6kW, of which absolute energy consumption will be in the 7.5kW range). Even with that motor it's a modest vehicle for around town. I'd think something in the 12-15hp range would make it a practical proposition as a local commuter vehicle with modern batteries.

What on earth is that windscreen from though?

Phil

[Spottedlaurel]

Fantastic!

I used to see one in Lavenham, Suffolk circa 30 years ago, not sure if it was in use as it was always parked in the same place. When I drive past now I still take a look there.

One turned up at a local show a few years ago:

1976 Enfield 8000 by Spottedlaurel, on Flickr

1976 Enfield 8000 by Spottedlaurel, on Flickr

Electrathon 86 and Eastern Electricity Economy 7 stickers by Spottedlaurel, on Flickr

Don't know if it was a runner, at the time DVLA said it had been off-road since 1995.

Looks like they have Avenger door handles?

[cobblers]

3 hours ago, PhilA said:

 

What on earth is that windscreen from though?

 

I seem to recall it's bespoke, and Jonny Smith (with the fast one) had to get one custom made at great expense.

[Tayne]

4 hours ago, cobblers said:

I seem to recall it's bespoke, and Jonny Smith (with the fast one) had to get one custom made at great expense.

 

 

https://www.flux-capacitor.co.uk/screen-weight-saver/

 

 

[Dick Longbridge]

49 minutes ago, Tayne said:

 

 

https://www.flux-capacitor.co.uk/screen-weight-saver/

 

 

£500 doesn't seem that bad in the grand scheme of things, considering its shape and the fact it's a bespoke build. I guess they'd potentially produce another for a little less next time too, now they have already created a mould. 

[Tadhg Tiogar]

2 hours ago, Dick Van Diesel said:

£500 doesn't seem that bad in the grand scheme of things, considering its shape and the fact it's a bespoke build. I guess they'd potentially produce another for a little less next time too, now they have already created a mould. 

Could be an answer for Ro80 owners, as their windscreens are double-curved.

[jonathan_dyane]

I was going to say Jenson Interceptor rear screen!

[coalnotdole]

On 8/3/2020 at 5:12 PM, LightBulbFun said:

 

ohh very interesting stuff! I appreciate the info  shame the original control system is gone, I bet it made a lovely noise in operation clicking and clunking away as you changed speed  

at least you can mess about with the control system now without feeling too bad about running the originality of it!

im curious do you know who made the motor etc? I assume its some massive brushed DC type?

 

interesting to see the weight is listed in the v5, im curious if that is with or without batteries (I know some electric vehicles have their weight/weigh classes decided with the batteries removed)

The motor is a Mawdesleys of Dursley series wound brushed unit. probably about 12" diameter and 20" long I'd guess. I'm expecting it to be Heavy with a capital H when it comes to removing it for servicing!

Yes apparently the weight on the V5 is without batteries. Supposedly its normal for cars to be weighed "without fuel".

Also anecdotally I have heard that the MIRA crash tests which enfield were very proud of the results of were also performed "without fuel" ?  So effectively the car weighed half of what it would in normal roadgoing form when they crashed it........

[LightBulbFun]

37 minutes ago, coalnotdole said:

The motor is a Mawdesleys of Dursley series wound brushed unit. probably about 12" diameter and 20" long I'd guess. I'm expecting it to be Heavy with a capital H when it comes to removing it for servicing!

Yes apparently the weight on the V5 is without batteries. Supposedly its normal for cars to be weighed "without fuel".

Also anecdotally I have heard that the MIRA crash tests which enfield were very proud of the results of were also performed "without fuel" ?  So effectively the car weighed half of what it would in normal roadgoing form when they crashed it........

interesting stuff  

given thats the weight *without* the batteries im now very doubtful of the claimed 48Mph top speed! either that or the motor must have substantially more than the claimed 8 horse power!

(is there a rating plate on it or such?)

this video also claims a 40Mph top speed so who knows LOL

 

 

interesting on the MIRA crash test, Im pretty sure the Model 70 (sorry!) one was done with fuel, as they issue noted in the report from the test was how the tabs welded onto fuel tank for mounting it to the chassis, ripped the fuel tank apart and caused it to piss fuel everywhere!

(which the Ministry did rectify, retrofitting older cars with fuel tanks mounted by straps and vehicle production from that point onwards changed to the new type of mounting system with straps as well obviously)

but ill have to double check my references/sources there, maybe they just implied that if it was filled with fuel it would have pissed it everywhere...

(as crash testing with fuel does sound like a recipe for a large fireball LOL)

[coalnotdole]

Well despite not really being at the front of the project queue the Enfield has had a little bit of work done to it:

 

After much thought and procrastination I cracked out the dremel and cut the alloy rear quarter panel along its original weld lines and carefully opened out the crimped over edges around the door and window apertures allowing me to remove it exposing the steel skeleton of the car.

 

 

 

 

Crusty folded steel sections which will need replacing, annoyingly they're a straight folded channel on the inside but then the outer flanges are curved so will presumably need to buy a jenny roller to try and replicate them.

 

Rear end of sill which has suffered from water sitting between the (pointless) twin skin construction.

 

 

The front opening windows on the enfield are loosely based on mk1 mini parts but assembled in such a way that water isn't really kept out of the car - in heavy rain water will run under the non sealed lower channel and flow down the inside surface of the door and dooryard before ending up in the footwell! There should be an opportunity to add some drain holes from the channel into the inside of the door as per the original mini application which I will look into when I properly refurbish the doors.

However as the car is still sat outside at the moment and the window glass makes a bid for freedom every time you open the door I've shelled out and got some parts to replace the lower glass track and window catches which I have now fitted - this will all be coming apart again but at least its slightly more weathertight for the moment now.

 

As you can see the original glass channel is in very poor condition.

 

Original lower rail and shiny (stainless) replacement - This is a Mk1 Mini part with about 4" trimmed off the end.

 

New rail and glass channel test fitted to door.

 

New (expensive) window catches.

 

Finished Job - The upper glass channel turns out to be different from the Mk1 Mini (which sadly I only worked out after spending £180 on the full mini seal and catch kit) The section is completely different and the mini seals are also too short as the enfield windows are shorter but much taller. So I now have 4mtrs of incredibly expensive steel reinforced rubber flocked channel being made to order in italy by the only people who seem to still have the tooling to produce it!

 

Have sent out the order for 1" and 1"x2" box section for the chassis today so hopefully that will turn up at some point...

 

Cheers for reading!

Dave

 

[Mr Pastry]

Following this with interest, but what a job!

Top speed depends more on air resistance than weight, so 40MPH on 8HP is possible if it is slippery enough, it will just take a while to get there.  Looking at the overall design, it clearly wasn't done by amateurs and all those curves suggests that they thought about the drag factor.  It would be interesting to do a few sums.

[coalnotdole]

4 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

Following this with interest, but what a job!

Top speed depends more on air resistance than weight, so 40MPH on 8HP is possible if it is slippery enough, it will just take a while to get there.  Looking at the overall design, it clearly wasn't done by amateurs and all those curves suggests that they thought about the drag factor.  It would be interesting to do a few sums.

0.28cd apparently....

[Mr Pastry]

6 minutes ago, coalnotdole said:

0.28cd apparently....

That's not bad at all, if true!

[spartacus]

http://www.wallaceracing.com/Calculate HP For Speed.php

I just used the online calculator here and work an assumed frontal area of 20sqft and a weight of 3300 lbs you would allegedly only need 7.5 hp to do 40mph. As has been pointed out though, that's only half the story, in real world driving the ability to get away from the lights before an Audi rear-ends you is much more important.

You look like you've got your work cut out there with that bodywork. How do the panels reattach?

[coalnotdole]

The panels will need to be recrimped over the door and window apertures and then mig welded across the A and C Posts where I cut them to remove.

It appears that non of the panels are intended to be removable - even the front and rear valances which are bolted to the wings with lag screws and spire clips are then welded on the return lips behind the panels. Its my intention to strip all the panels off up to window height hopefully allowing decent enough access to remove the steel inner body panels and get to the chassis areas that need repairing, there's also potential for losing quite a bit of weight by doing away with some of the double skinned sections around the sills and wheel arches.

The chassis is designed as a stand alone space frame, then they seem to have welded 1mm steel floorpans and wheel arches to it, then added a folded steel skeleton to support the alloy body shell, then panelled in between the chassis sections inside using  .8mm steel. Then the rear seats and interior trim is all  mounted to steel or alloy panels which are screwed on top of the interior steelwork so you in effect have three layers of tinwork in places....

[Tadhg Tiogar]

Which Italian company is doing the channel?

[coalnotdole]

1 minute ago, Tadhg Tiogar said:

Which Italian company is doing the channel?

Cicognani

[anonymous user]

Probably too late for you, but would the old Series Land Rover use anything similar on the windows?

[motorpunk]

Great thread! I shall follow with interest.

So this was three times the price of an equivalent ICE car, then, when new? Can we draw a parallel with the Honda E there?

?

[somewhatfoolish]

On 8/3/2020 at 5:21 PM, Tadhg Tiogar said:

What would the weight comparison be of lead-acid, as opposed to Li-ion, batteries? Also charging time comparison?

Li-ion batteries are 2.5-6 times more energy dense than lead acid batteries. The charger is the limiting factor with Li, charging is much faster.

[Will on Syros]

A lovely little car.  I just bought an Enfield 8000 myself and it's getting a restoration; fortunately it's in a bit better condition that thi syellow/orange one.  How is the restoration going?

I've noticed that a lot of people think these cars were made on the Isle of Wight...but only a very few were..less than 10.   Manufacturing Enfields at the Isle of Wight factory was stopped in 1973after an industrial dispute, and Giannis Goulandris, the owner of Enfield Automtive, shipped production of the car to the town of Ermoupoli on the island of Syros where they were made up until 1976.  They were then sent back to the Isle of Wight just to have the batteries fitted and to be sold as they were not road legal vehicles on Greece.  I've lived on Syros for 4 years now and the Enfield is a BIG deal here. The Prime Minister even had the one from the museum here taken to Athens last year so he could stand by it in a press announcement about electric cars.   It was the first mass produced electric vehicle...so is a bit of automotive history...and of the roughly 120 made, fewer than 15, so far as I can tell, are still working or currently being restored. 

Attached are some photos...the factory where they were made was a supermarket until a couple of years ago and is currently being used as a storage building for the Industrial Museum in the town.  The group photo shows Goulandris in white overalls and the workforce at the factory when the first Enfield was finished in October 1973.  The other 3 photos are the only ones I have of inside the factory.

[Will on Syros]

 

[Will on Syros]

Here's my Enfield..acquired blue...currently getting some TLC...

[coalnotdole]

Hi Will, Interesting to see some photos of work on the car - I was offered it and the spares package when it came up for sale and although it seemed very good value for the money I felt it would have a negative impact on my chances of actually finishing this one or my other various projects!.

The BEI logo is interesting - do you know anything about its history?

I'll try and sort out an update to this thread at some point soon as theres been some small bits of progress with the enfield.

 

Dave