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I find it despicable how the consumer is encouraged into unsustainable borrowing to prop up a few fundamentally failing businesses. People need to take a step back after this and think twice about the liquidity of their finances, if you can’t afford a 20k car then accept it. So many people are now made of straw, that’s to say they’ve got no assets, everything’s on the tick. Of course to criticise any of this isn’t the done thing as you’d be seen to be trying to throw a spanner in the so called ‘electric revolution’. 

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There are currently 31,785 public charging points in the UK in 11,385 locations.

(source ZapMap https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/ )

The ceiling on EV use is to an extent going to be determined by charging opportunities in the near future - little use stimulating demand unless this is properly adequate.

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We’ve got a car on finance and it was particularly annoying looking at that sitting on the drive not moving for 3 instalments, ok it could have been worse as it’s only £265 per month and it’s almost paid off. But if it was £499 and next time we’re locked down for 6 months- that shit’s not funny and I think a lot of people will take that view, especially if they’re working from home and nowhere to go socially.

Why would anyone sign up for more debt , anyway I heard it was car chargers that caused the Covid. Must be true my mate read it on Facebook.

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Last time I checked, the break even point for environmental cleanliness was around ~100000km between an EV and an ICU car, due to the fact that in manufacturing EVs, the batteries are incredibly filthy to make but need only be made once and so they get cleaner with every kilometre covered as they don't burn hydrocarbons themselves. ICU cars however are the other way round. The problem is, and this was an issue with a Nissan Leaf, the batteries don't last indefinitely unlike an engine and so the battery has to get disposed of (and I don't think they can be recycled yet) and a new one installed, thereby setting back the EV in terms of environmental cleanliness and so on. Factor in what electricity is generated with, the amount of charging points currently installed, and it boils down, at least to me, to a load of tosh designed to line some more pockets with £50 notes. It seems like it's trying to win people over "because EV = green", plus, as mentioned earlier, you run the risk of getting into debt by potentially buying a car you cannot afford. John Cadogan on YouTube has a lot more info on all of this and it's a pretty good listen in my view.

I just find it ridiculous because EVs still aren't viable replacements... yet. There will be a time when they are because of the progressions of technology but right now it seems to be a cash grab veiled in the promise of greater sustainability when there isn't one.

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4 hours ago, 1duck said:

cheapest VW electric will be about 15k for an UP, taking 6k off that might make it an option for some.

It'll be 6k off a tesla in conjunction with the manufacturer i'd think , no way will the government be knocking 1/3 off an 18k electric car

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4 hours ago, sierraman said:

I find it despicable how the consumer is encouraged into unsustainable borrowing to prop up a few fundamentally failing businesses. People need to take a step back after this and think twice about the liquidity of their finances, if you can’t afford a 20k car then accept it. So many people are now made of straw, that’s to say they’ve got no assets, everything’s on the tick. Of course to criticise any of this isn’t the done thing as you’d be seen to be trying to throw a spanner in the so called ‘electric revolution’. 

It'll be right. I'll just do what I've always done. Wait 15 years then have one ?

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9 hours ago, Tamworthbay said:

New Dacia electric is due soon at around £15-17k. If they gave £6k off that it would tempt a few I bet.

I'm waiting to see what the price is on that Dacia, French press reckon around 15k.

There are two new French government incentives,  one for going electric and another for scraping a deisel. Both add up to 12k.

I expect the Dacias RRP to increase to 20k.

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With the points Fumbler raised above, including the difficulty recycling the batteries, and the issue of very limited cobalt and other materials required for the batteries, I reckon this is the wrong approach.  We used to live in Chandlers Ford, a posh suburb and I'd often see Nissan Leafs obviously used basically as shopping cars.  This is just daft.  Surely the best approach, as seems broadly used in China, is for the electric cars to be taxis.  I've been in electric taxis in Shenzhen and frankly they are pretty awesome and of course drive around all day so that battery gets thoroughly used.  I don't know how they manage the charging time but clearly they do.  I just don't think this is the right approach, and it brings out thoughts in me that aren't appropriate as I believe we're not supposed to do politics on here!

Some sums.  

Car battery: 400 kg (say).  

Life ten years.  That's 40 kg a year.

Shopping car say 2000 miles a year, 50 mpg, density 0.7, 4,54 litres/gallon is 128 kg/year.

So replace three kg of fuel with one kg of lithium battery?  That's crazy.

BUT a taxi at 50,000 miles per year.  That's three tons of fuel to replace 40 kg battery.  Sounding better.

 

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1 hour ago, sierraman said:

The electric car police will be along in a moment to tell you that you are wrong. You WILL like electric cars and you WILL have one regardless of whether it fits your needs. ?

I won’t be convinced until range is at least as good as an internal combustion engine, recharging is the same time as filling a fuel tank, and batteries last as long as an internal combustion engine otherwise it’s just not progress.

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I've got to say in fairness that I've had a trial of a Nissan Leaf and was impressed, I've been in Chinese taxis as above and been impressed and been in a Tesla and been thoroughly scared - not my thing at all.

So I am not anti electric car, think they're great.  I just don't think this approach is right.  Taxis, shared ownership and frankly bikes and buses are a better bet.

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Some questions :

Will the social distancing measures on public transport increase private car use?

Will more people work from home and need to use cars less?

How capable are consumers to service the potential costs of new cars on lease?

How resilient are manufacturers (that are essentially finance houses that make cars) to deal with reduced demand?

How are supply chains holding up and can they cope with phased demand increases?

Then there's all the infrastructure questions..

Policy that is not carefully considered is a curse of modern life, regardless of location or party.

This seems to read like just that, a 'votewinner' policy with no consideration given to the hurdles that would be encountered during rollout.

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The issue in the main is the cost to the buyer. I wasn't being that tongue in cheek with my earlier comment, even with £6000 scrappage and the possibility of some sort of grant I'd still be shit loads away from affording a new battery powered car. So the only way to do it is to go into hock then worry about meeting monthlies.

Frankly this is bollocks. The answer as always is good efficient public transport and more localised amenities and ESPECIALLY jobs! I walk two miles to work and two miles back everyday to work in the same town I live in. This is the last engineering works  left in my local area. If and when this goes ill have to travel to the Manchester area to find work which obviously will dramatically increase the pollution I cause. I take my kids to Bolton every Sunday to swimming lessons cos they closed the pool in my town saying it was no longer viable. I could go on but my thumbs are getting tired.

These are big answers that no politician ever wants to tackle. So instead they'll tell us the answer is electric cars and expect us to wear the cost. The answer is clearly less travel. Bloody charlatans the lot of em 

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11 minutes ago, 320touring said:

Some questions :

With the social distancing measures on public transport increase private car use?

Will more people work from home and need to use cars less?

How capable are consumers to service the potential costs of new cars on lease?

How resilient are manufacturers (that are essentially finance houses that make cars) to deal with reduced demand?

How are supply chains holding up and can they cope with phased demand increases?

Then there's all the infrastructure questions..

Policy that is not carefully considered is a curse of modern life, regardless of location or party.

This seems to read like just that, a 'votewinner' policy with no consideration given to the hurdles that would be encountered during rollout.

yup your bloody right. Reads like a vote winner policy. Unfortunately that's all parties of all colours are capable of these days. No tough decisions that might make a difference for the future, just more tinsle and window dressing.

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Interesting to see in that Autocar article someone has linked above that the car makers aren't that keen on the scheme being linked to electric cars, because they subsidise the cost of them.  

If this does happen, I really hope that they see sense and put a 25 year limit on this.  Not just on the grounds that 25 year old cars are historic but also on the grounds that they never do any miles so what's the gain.  No-one does a significant milage in a 25 year old car, do they?  Er..... well apart from me and a few more on here.....

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I've got a Passat GTE, I actually bothered setting-up the charge point at home during lockdown. Was quite a novelty not using any petrol and moving silently for a few weeks. I could definitly see how even a low range car would work for most people, the passat only has a 30 mile range but I think that would be good enough for 80% of trips for most people espicially if you could charge it up at work.

I have struggled to charge it out in the field, I think ive only been succesful once, the main advantage is being able to get a decent parking in an electric bay, its a bit like having a disabled badge without being disabled.

Another advantage of the electric/hybrid car is being able to preset the climate control, its great being able to remotely defrost the car in winter or cool the car down if its been sitting in the sun. Now thats progress!

 

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We are waiting on a leased EV arriving - obviously it's been held up with lockdown etc.

Its through the NHS and works out at £200 per month. No deposit, 10k mileage cap and the lease includes insurance, servicing even tyres. Literally put electric in and drive. The charging infrastructure in Northern Ireland is currently 90% free to use, and a full charge at home costs just over a fiver for 174 miles range.

On paper that was very hard to ignore, it's only a two year lease so we thought we'd treat it as an experiment.

We need two cars under normal circumstances - I do school runs in the morning and use mine for site visits at work, mrs starts work in the hospital too early for viable public transport and picks the kids up in the afternoon.

If I can mostly work from home long term I can do both school runs and mrs can change her shifts to do public transport, or start cycling again (she wants to, but afternoon school run on way home)

At that point one appliance car and one hobby car that could do backup for the rare occasion we both needed a car. We done it this way when my wife took a career break when the kids were younger - we had a newish megane scenic and the XM to play with.

Someone mentioned having a car as a service - that's the ownership experience that appeals to my wife. She can pay a set amount each month and just drive the thing. If anything needs done a nice person from the dealers can sort it all out.

It's kind of my fault - for the first few years of marriage when we seemed to be permanently skint her Sunday evenings usually consisted of watching TV alone while I struggled to replace a leaking brake cylinder on some POS one MOT fail away from the scrap yard. Usually in the howling rain, and usually until the wee small hours because it was needed for the next morning.

I guess the next step in that car as a service idea is a monthly subscription you pay to have a car available when you need it. You pay £x a month for x miles per year and you can borrow a car as and when

Sent from my SM-A202F using Tapatalk

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The readiness with which banks lend money has surprised me recently. I have a credit card which I pay off every month; I'm moving soon and so knew I'd have lots of expenses coming up, so I applied for another card which offers 0% interest for 2 years - I figured out that I'd comfortably need £2k for about a month to cover between deposits, and getting paid some back-pay etc. They happily threw £5k of free credit my way. Anyway, circumstances meant I needed to do a money transfer out which that card didn't allow, so I looked around - 15 minutes later another bank, who I have had no dealings with in my life whatsoever, were happy to pay £6k into my bank account interest free for 2 years. 

I'm solvent and not given to temptation fortunately, I just happened to need a bit of cash ready to hand at a time of lots of expenses - but cash I know I am able to repay. The bank, especially the second one, don't know me from Adam and have no idea why I wanted the money, what I was going to spend it on and how I planned to repay it. I thought it was a little bananas (although it was useful it happened so quickly).

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This is a fucking disgrace, just as the previous scheme was; a double calumny of giving rich people a subsidy for a new car while restricting the availability and raising the price of used cars for the rest of us, the socio-economic equivalent of forcing starving people to watch that oaf Philip Green eat grapes fed to him by a serf. The SMMT will be the first up against the wall beside the chancellor when the revolution comes.

Edit to add; if they want economic stimulus do a Trump, write everyone a cheque for £1000.

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Hire-by-the-hour services like Zipcar are popular in inner London where lots of people don't need the use of a car all the time. They get the tube to/from work and if they need to go to B&Q at the weekend, or do a big shop, or go to see Aunt Fanny in the countryside, they hire a zipcar for however many hours they want it. I used to use them before I had my own cars and still have an account, although nowadays I use it about once a year. Obviously this will only work in areas with enough people that fall into this category.

Speaking of risk, there's an awful lot of things in society now where the individual harbours much more risk. Look at the number of fake self employment scams going, where somebody is doing a job that really should be PAYE but is done on a self-employment basis - so if they dent the van, or are sick, or bad traffic hinders their round - the cost/time hit goes on them, not the employer. (I'm not talking about what I'd call 'professional' self employed people of the type who are probably wrangling with IR35 and tax issues, I'm talking Piotr and Dariusz working a 14 hour day every day driving a leased van around Central London delivering parcels for 50p each).

PCP is surely the next PPI compensation debacle just waiting to happen. So many get-outs for the company, I'll bet they make next to nothing on the monthly charge to the customer, it'll all be on the damage fees and penalties at the end when they can really tighten the knackers.

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11 hours ago, theshadow said:

not in my budjet,£30,so they can go swivel...

About 40 years too late for the Sinclair C5 on scrappage ?

 

theyd have to give me 100% of the electric cars value for me to trade my Carlton in. Then I’d only sell it and buy myself a used Audi A6 Allroad.  ?

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11 hours ago, N19 said:

The readiness with which banks lend money has surprised me recently.....

It may have something to do with loads of people clearing off credit card debts and loans during the lockdown period, and comparatively few new debts being created.

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On ‎6‎/‎8‎/‎2020 at 2:07 PM, sierraman said:

I find it despicable how the consumer is encouraged into unsustainable borrowing to prop up a few fundamentally failing businesses. People need to take a step back after this and think twice about the liquidity of their finances, if you can’t afford a 20k car then accept it. So many people are now made of straw, that’s to say they’ve got no assets, everything’s on the tick. Of course to criticise any of this isn’t the done thing as you’d be seen to be trying to throw a spanner in the so called ‘electric revolution’. 

There's your problem right there. no one is forcing anyone to borrow, it's a choice.

"Poor us; we've £20k on credit cards, a mortgage & 2 cars at £400p/m each. How will we ever be able to afford it".

Man up & take responsibility for your own actions.

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Subsidising electric cars. We really do have to question whether subsidising  people who can afford a £30,000 motor car is the best use of our tax money when we have folk using food banks. As to the suitability, well it is fine if you have a driveway or have somewhere to charge it. It's fine as a commuting car, shopping car, mum's/dad's taxi but no good if you want to go on a long journey. Charging times and charging point accessibility is always going to make such a journey a fraught and anxious proposition. It will take so much more planning. What happens when you arrive at said charging point to find the a, it's already in use and won't be free for 3 hours, plus you are fourth in the queue? How many times have you have to queue for petrol? I personally think hydrogen fuel cells will be the answer. Refueling times will be comparable to petrol cars, they will be clean at the point of use, i.e. no emissions, they will be quiet and have the potential to have a longer life than a battery powered car. Older well maintained cars are still the most environmentally sound option as all the Co2 released during manufacture has already been released. If you take that figure and divide it by 15, 20 or even 30 years then the percentage is tiny when compared to a new car. The buzz word at the moment is reuse, recycle. This is what we do when we drive older cars. We should be encouraged to do so.

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2 hours ago, tul66 said:

There's your problem right there. no one is forcing anyone to borrow, it's a choice.

"Poor us; we've £20k on credit cards, a mortgage & 2 cars at £400p/m each. How will we ever be able to afford it".

Man up & take responsibility for your own actions.

Absolutely correct there. 

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38 minutes ago, 2flags said:

Subsidising electric cars. We really do have to question whether subsidising  people who can afford a £30,000 motor car is the best use of our tax money when we have folk using food banks. As to the suitability, well it is fine if you have a driveway or have somewhere to charge it. It's fine as a commuting car, shopping car, mum's/dad's taxi but no good if you want to go on a long journey. Charging times and charging point accessibility is always going to make such a journey a fraught and anxious proposition. It will take so much more planning. What happens when you arrive at said charging point to find the a, it's already in use and won't be free for 3 hours, plus you are fourth in the queue? How many times have you have to queue for petrol? I personally think hydrogen fuel cells will be the answer. Refueling times will be comparable to petrol cars, they will be clean at the point of use, i.e. no emissions, they will be quiet and have the potential to have a longer life than a battery powered car. Older well maintained cars are still the most environmentally sound option as all the Co2 released during manufacture has already been released. If you take that figure and divide it by 15, 20 or even 30 years then the percentage is tiny when compared to a new car. The buzz word at the moment is reuse, recycle. This is what we do when we drive older cars. We should be encouraged to do so.

A while ago I pulled up at services and the charge bay was full of ICE cars. You’d be a bit fucked if you’d got an electric car and that happened. 

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