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Juular's Jap Sigh - problem solved


juular
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Oooh, crispy. Looks like my old Dolly 1850, have you considered putting it in a field for half a decade and hoping it sorts itself?

 

If you have two years to get it sorted and intend to keep the car long term I say go for it. Worse case scenario you should be fairly good at welding by the end of it (and burnt and crippled) and random people from the internet will respect you more.

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12 hours ago, somewhatfoolish said:

If you haven't already viewed them, @DodgyBastard's videos are well stocked with footage of hopelessly rotten shite being welded back together by a mad welder, so may offer discouragement/enabling depending on how mental you are.

Yep. It was actually FOAD / @DodgyBastard who mentioned this site on Retrorides and how I ended up here. I have read  his threads of adventure and have been impressed and inspired. Seeing his shovit go slowly back together considering its condition helped me see my rust problem as merely a scuff.

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9 hours ago, Talbot said:

I don't think anyone else has answered this, so I'll have a guess.  It's most likely a disc brake for the service brake and a drum brake for the handbrake mechanism.  Was popular/common for a while on vehicles with rear discs, as putting a handbrake on a disc brake mechanism is fairly fraught with problems, be that either the pads/discs cooling down after a run and the car then rolling away, or an additional little caliper for a separate handbrake mechanism.  The easier solution is a tried-and-tested drum brake for the handbrake, but using the top-hat section of the disc as it's working surface.

With this setup, it's worth pulling the handbrake on with the car moving on a regular basis to keep the "drum" clear of rust, as otherwise the shoes only ever get put onto stationary metal, so it never gets cleared off.

Yes the shoes are there purely for the handbrake. I found it a bit odd as I'm used to seeing one or the other, but then you have a point about caliper based handbrake mechanisms. The rear calipers on my Trafic need to be taken off and freed up at every service as the lever on the back inevitably starts to seize.

It seemed odd to see doubling of systems on a car where toyota have made efforts to shave the cost everywhere else.. such as putting the electric window switches on the centre console.

 

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Hyundai Elantra has them. But then again, there are at least 2 ways of having rear brakes on a Hyundai Elantra XD: Just brake drums or this setup. I don't know if they ever did a "just brake disks on the rear" setup.

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21 minutes ago, drewd said:

On the subject of the rear brake disc/drum setup on this, if your backing plates are solid clean them up and paint them.

They are often rotten, and required as part of the braking assembly. They're also expensive. Something like £150 each +VAT and a dealer only part I'm told.

Same design as on my MR2 Roadster I guess. Mine rotted off and brakes still work fine. Similar stories with fellow owners. Why are they required as part of the braking assembly? 

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21 minutes ago, drewd said:

On the subject of the rear brake disc/drum setup on this, if your backing plates are solid clean them up and paint them.

They are often rotten, and required as part of the braking assembly. They're also expensive. Something like £150 each +VAT and a dealer only part I'm told.

They are about to go into a tank of citric acid, patched up if required, then painted in zinc stuff.  Hopefully they arent too far gone.

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15 minutes ago, Dick Longbridge said:

Same design as on my MR2 Roadster I guess. Mine rotted off and brakes still work fine. Similar stories with fellow owners. Why are they required as part of the braking assembly? 

On a purely disc braked setup the backing plate is just a splash guard, but as this is a disc/drum combination it's the backing plate for the drum brake components. I never took mine apart so I'm not sure if the brake shoes mount to it, but there were a fair few people on the Facebook owners group that had their cars fail MOTs due to the backing plates having holes in them.

I'd expect any rusty holes would allow dirt and moisture into the drum too.

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I was a bit concerned at first that you were thinking of trying to repair the subframe.

As for the rest of it, find all the rust but repair one area at a time - a shell with more holes than metal is very demotivational.

 

What's the worst that could happen?

 

34903404283_bd75fee2f2_b.jpgQuarter009_zps4cd11e33 by RS, on Flickr

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3 hours ago, BoggyMires said:

The Discovery handbrake shoes and drum are part of the propshaft. The reason for this is because er.... not shore. Maybe something to do with going bog deep frequently?

Quite a clever system IMO. Assuming you lock the centre diff, you are braking both axles. And together with the mechanical advantage given by the final drive ratios, it will still hold securely even when contaminated by mud (or more likely on a Land Rover, oil).

Add Vauxhall Omega to the list of cars with rear discs/drums...

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Wonder why they bother at all with this drum in disc nonsense (I had a Volvo V70 and knew the fear of the shoes delaminating and wrecking the hub, Subaru Outback can be added to the list btw...), pretty sure most cars could just have drums on the back and save all the hassle.  The Surf has them and is heavy/automatic, so normal cars could easily manage I'm sure.

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You can add Hyundai i20 and KIA Ceed models to the rear drum/disc combo brakes system as well.

For your information, the rear brake plates that are fitted to the similarly aged Corolla Verso, are supposedly the same as the Celica...

Talking of rust and repairs, was there not a thread a few years back on a little burgundy coloured Lancia Y10 or suchlike?

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4 hours ago, mat_the_cat said:

Assuming you lock the centre diff, you are braking both axles

If only that were true.  There is one massive downside to the land-rover transmission brake system:  You are only locking the input to the differential, not each side of the diff, so even with the handbrake solidly on, the wheels themselves can still turn, they only hold the car if both wheels on an axle have grip.

So, even with the centre diff locked, if you park on a steepish hill with one side of the car (and two wheels) on grippy tarmac/concrete, and the other two wheels on slippery mud,  the car will roll off down the hill with the two wheels on the mud turning backwards.  Ask me how I know this.

Luckily I was still in the car when it happened, so was able to stamp on the brakes, which of course then actually braked the two wheels that had grip.  Speaking to others in land-rover circles, apparently it's a well-known issue for land-rovers (particularly series vehicles in 2wd mode) to roll off with one wheel turning backwards on a slippery surface.

A rear axle diff lock fixes the problem.

 

Also, add Vauxhall Cavalier Mk3 to the list.  That was the first car I saw with combination disc/drum brakes on the rear.

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10 hours ago, gtd2000 said:

You can add Hyundai i20 and KIA Ceed models to the rear drum/disc combo brakes system as well.

For your information, the rear brake plates that are fitted to the similarly aged Corolla Verso, are supposedly the same as the Celica...

Talking of rust and repairs, was there not a thread a few years back on a little burgundy coloured Lancia Y10 or suchlike?

Celicas and Carinas (later, Avensis) have always been very closely related. 

I know the similar age Avensis look to be a close match (in terms of chassis etc) but I wouldn't assume they are identical. Worth a look if you're in a scrappers with a tape measure.

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22 hours ago, Talbot said:

If only that were true.  There is one massive downside to the land-rover transmission brake system:  You are only locking the input to the differential, not each side of the diff, so even with the handbrake solidly on, the wheels themselves can still turn, they only hold the car if both wheels on an axle have grip.

So, even with the centre diff locked, if you park on a steepish hill with one side of the car (and two wheels) on grippy tarmac/concrete, and the other two wheels on slippery mud,  the car will roll off down the hill with the two wheels on the mud turning backwards.  Ask me how I know this.

Luckily I was still in the car when it happened, so was able to stamp on the brakes, which of course then actually braked the two wheels that had grip.  Speaking to others in land-rover circles, apparently it's a well-known issue for land-rovers (particularly series vehicles in 2wd mode) to roll off with one wheel turning backwards on a slippery surface.

A rear axle diff lock fixes the problem.

 

Also, add Vauxhall Cavalier Mk3 to the list.  That was the first car I saw with combination disc/drum brakes on the rear.

I have done that. I was sitting in the driver's seat and it it started sliding backwards. Took me bloody months figure out why it did that and it was one of those lightbulb moments. Thought there was something wrong with the cable etc. 

I also left it in gear one day. Without the handbrake. Was working in a field listening to the radio, cranked the starter so I could let it tick over for a few minutes. The little downslope was enough for it to start in second gear and the Defender went trundling down the field by itself. Also me trying to run after it in a pair of wellies. 

Great fun all round 

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A small update mostly with me thinking out loud,  as I have only had a few minutes here and there in between the downpours, mostly spent poking rot with screwdrivers and identifying in which order things need to come off. In the evenings after work I have been drowning everything in releasing fluids, disconnecting brake lines and doing boring stuff like taking interior bits out.

 The bottom strut mount is welded solid and the bolt head is long gone. Check out the state of this for an 05 plate.

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Most bolt heads rear of the tank are long since turned to rusty rivets and I need to either chop them or hit them with the blowtorch & weld nut heads on. Either way I noticed there are fuel lines nearby and I'm not really sure how great the fuel tank is, so I'd rather get all of that out of the way before I start making fire or sparks.

Took the back box off for a better look. Did not have to unbolt, just chopped the hangers and gave it a kick and off it came. However it's not actually too bad and will tidy up ok.

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The front bolts on the tank are fine but there's no way the back ones are coming off. Not a problem though as the straps will probably snap with one good smack from a hammer. 

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Small problem, the filler hose goes in near the bottom of the tank and I have about 40L of fuel in, so I will need to empty the tank before I do anything else.

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60L worth of jerry cans arriving soon. Just need a siphon.

Anyone used these?

https://www.screwfix.com/p/laser-jiggle-siphon-hose-20mm-x-1-75m/23447

It's either that or an electric pump which will take about 50 mins to empty.

On the plus side the subframe may be salvageable as despite looking mega furry it isn't perforated, and someone has redone the brake lines in copper which saves me a job. It's the small things.

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I have been tempted by these for a while, didn’t realise they got this crusty. Can you get the filler pipe off higher up and leave it connected to the tank? I have an electric pump but the anti siphon bit in most newer cars has defeated me both times I have tried to use it on post 80s stuff.

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