Rear engined cars

[garethj]

It was The Old Forge, Fosters Booth near Northampton.  There was a tiny showroom at the front with a 613/5 and a 603 in it, a workshop around the back and offices upstairs.

Tim Bishop first got the consultancy job with Tatra to develop a fuel injection system for the 613 (I had this on my 613/4 Mi) but later that developed into full homologation of the 613/5.

Not strictly rear engined as the front 2 cylinders were ahead of the axle line, but not really mid engined either.  It bloody worked though.

Any car with 2 petrol-burning heaters gets my vote?

[Tadhg Tiogar]

47 minutes ago, Yoss said:

.... I thought they only built 5 RHD examples. I'd love to know more about that. 

Four RHD 613-5s were built - the only RHD ones to be turned out. Last I heard, 3 were still in existence, including the car tested by Chris Goffey on Top Gear. One even made it onto eBay some years ago, starting at 11 bags.

Very brave of Tatra to have a go at the British market, even though - with hindsight - they were probably doomed. It was a 1970s design, built in limited numbers for a limited market, that nobody over here really wanted, not even limo hire companies, undertakers or local councils (all of which arguably could have made best use of a T613).

[HMC]

Rear engined, in period and on the limit (and often over it)

[barrett]

The film is definitely one of the best things on the internet. It's here to save you searching:

I'm very annoyed I've missed the boat on 603s. My friend has a three-headlamp car stashed away somewhere which I'd quite like to have one day.

The UK Tatra thing was pretty interesting. My friend Tim was the driving force behind it - designed all the stuff to get the car up to UK type approval, and then set up as the initial dealer, but the factory lost interest almost as soon as it got going and the whole thing collapsed. One of the cars was written off but the others are still around, I think. Sam Glover's parents have one of them.

 

Edit: I didn't see the last page of replies, I wasn't willfully just repeating stuff that's already been said!

[Tadhg Tiogar]

21 minutes ago, barrett said:

....The UK Tatra thing was pretty interesting. My friend Tim was the driving force behind it - designed all the stuff to get the car up to UK type approval, and then set up as the initial dealer, but the factory lost interest almost as soon as it got going and the whole thing collapsed. ...

Thing is, with the liberalisation of the Czech economy in the early 1990s, Tatra did want to earn much more revenue than it had been allowed to previously. Other than its truck range, it only had the one car product so it was that or nothing.

Puzzling as to why the factory lost interest; maybe they'd already seen the writing on the wall? See also the Tatra MTX V8, the last gasp stab at an XJ220-style supercar. Car production didn't last very long after that, so perhaps there wasn't that much of a market after all.

 

[garethj]

27 minutes ago, barrett said:

The UK Tatra thing was pretty interesting. My friend Tim was the driving force behind it - designed all the stuff to get the car up to UK type approval, and then set up as the initial dealer, but the factory lost interest almost as soon as it got going and the whole thing collapsed. 

From what Tim told me, it wasn’t exactly the factory losing interest but some horrible intervention from an unlawful controlling outsider.

They had some orders to fulfil and were trying to get the cars built but when they needed a delivery of engine castings and got delivered some wheels with a shrug of the shoulders, it’s difficult to build anything.

[Jikovron]

I've been running a rear engined car on the fleet since 2007 and love the slightly wayward tendencies , my favourite was my first estelle which came as a rotten 105 with swingaxles and ended its days with semi trailing,5 speed and a fabia 1400 pushrod engine.

As it was the car seemed sprung precisely such that it didnt skip over bumpy corners like my stiffer sprung 130gl and 120 ls did and didnt betray the 60/40 distribution hardly at all in normal use, stopping quickly in the wet would lock the wheels before it had a chance to transfer weight forward so it paid to ramp the brakes on rather than stab them and also I remember piling into what I probably erroneously call the Stagshaw roundabout on the A68 from the Chollerford direction at about a spirited speed after a megane RS and despite trying to sweep the curve as neutrally as possible the resulting light rear feeling slide felt as though it was on the knife edge away from spinning as in those circumstances applying power would have furthered the slide agressively rather than loaded up the tyre with negative camber that powering* through a corner can achieve.

* 58bhp,,,.

[dc2100k]

14 hours ago, Gord said:

Mid engine RWD. The ultimate balanced car? The engine being placed slightly ahead of the rear driving axle allows the front wheels to steer the car easily and quickly. Gone are all the issues of FWD. Traction is improved, braking is more stable, the perfect place to put an engine! Unfortunately your rear passengers have just lost their seats, the luggage area is reduced, where do you put the fuel tank? And, have you ever tried to work on a mid engine car?

Rear engine RWD! With the engine situated behind the rear axle, this layout probably gives the most tractive effort of any car, and even more than the AWD. Accelerate hard and 80%  of the cars weight is transferred to the driving wheels. The steering is light and precise, and during braking the split front-to-back is around 60/40, the most even of any layout. The fuel tank can still be situated under the rear seat and accommodation inside the vehicle can be as good as with FWD. Unfortunately, gone is the van-like ability of the front engine layouts, plumbing is more complex, and the cars, although more agile, are more prone to cross-winds, and will, ultimately, oversteer if driven too fast.

 

 

Thanks Gord for explaining this so precisely. Rear-engine, RWD is the best layout for performance driving. It gives bags of traction and wonderful steering feel. One point you didn't labour was the centre of gravity - as the engine is behind the rear wheels it can be lowered down into the same plane as the wheels, especially advantageous with a boxer/flat engine. If you look at the cutaway of the MR2 above you immediately see the problem with mid-engined cars, especially transverse layout - all the weight of the engine is miles above the wheels which disimproves the handling more that any notional advantages of keeping that weight between the axles.

[barefoot]

I met Tim Bishop some years ago at his pub, although for the life of me I can't remember why. He showed me around his Tatra & a Goggomobile. He also sowed the seeds for the 'barefoot Bishop knob'. Essentially it's a bog stock bay window gear selector knob, rammed to capacity with small bits of lead held in place with epoxy. The stock knob weighs about 10 grammes, the BB knob about 40 g. Although this does absolutely nothing to improve the actual quality of the 15 foot gear linkage on a VW bus, it does make a spectacular difference to the perceived accuracy of the shift. Very, very clever. I'd also like to contribute to the pendulum effect conversation. On a very icy car park, it is a matter of absolute simplicity to flick out the arse of a VW bus to perform the most spectacular doughnuts. It was so easy, I was on full opposite lock and changed up into second gear. My dog sat on the floor beside me, completely unfazed.

[HMC]

I recall Dave Richards ran a tim bishop era Tatra 613 as a staff car on c&sc around 1999-2001ish- Green, L plate, 

[barefoot]

By a curious co-incidence, my real name is also Dave Richards, but I'm this one;

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/david-richards-3065a1b5

[garethj]

3 hours ago, HMC said:

I recall Dave Richards ran a tim bishop era Tatra 613 as a staff car on c&sc around 1999-2001ish- Green, L plate, 

That was mine, I’ve known Dave since the mid 90s when I had a 603.

Sam Glover has it now, I think.

It’s not quite the same as a UK spec car; it has the same engine and fuel injection system, makes 220bhp from its quad cam V8.  It would have made 200bhp but when the ECU senses maximum throttle and almost maximum revs it declutches the cooling fan (a big fucker on these) which liberates  10% more power.

However it keeps the eastern bloc dashboard with switches familiar to a Skoda owner.  It’s got aircon but only a very simple system and while it has a 5 speed gearbox, to develop it quickly they didn’t bother getting the shift pattern right.  I can’t quite remember how it went but it was a sort of mirror image dogleg first thing.  Thank fuck it was printed on the gearlever.

It had power steering too, I think it was a ZF system pretty close to the one used on the NSU Ro80.  However my memory is hazy.

The earlier cars had unassisted steering and 2 twin carbs on the engine which made 165bhp.

[Yoss]

All this talk of people here actually owning Tatras makes me jealous and a bit sad. As mentioned above, us mere mortals have missed the boat now. Even 613's which were quite reasonable a few years ago have gone a bit silly now. 

A quick scan of t'internet shows that this is the only Tatra I can afford now. 

Which is still pretty cool (and there are some great vids of these on YouTube too) but it's not rear engined so I shan't mention it here. 

[Gord]

14 hours ago, HMC said:

Rear engined, in period and on the limit (and often over it)

Ahh, but they are still at it...

I do find it interesting seeing how a car becomes uncontrollable, and these videos can provide hours of education.

A bit too much speed around a bend, a bit too much power at the wrong time. It can quickly go very wrong indeed.

I can understand how so many bikers lose their lives – so little protection if you hit something hard, or if something hits you. I think it's frightening.

Gord

[Tadhg Tiogar]

12 hours ago, Yoss said:

All this talk of people here actually owning Tatras makes me jealous and a bit sad. As mentioned above, us mere mortals have missed the boat now. Even 613's which were quite reasonable a few years ago have gone a bit silly now. .... 

Do a search for the T700. Here's one that ended up in the United States.

The cabin was slightly reshaped and makes the car look a bit like the Volvo 940/960 saloons. All LHD, obviously, and only 75 built.

As the song goes, "it must have been love / But it's over now"...

[martc]

Tatra chat - their still here and still making mega lorries; unfortunately none of them appear to be rear engined.

https://www.tatratrucks.com/

Some of the cabs look familiar - I spy  DAF cabs aplenty.

DAF

DAF

Not DAF

Anyhow, back to rear wheel drive, here's Hans Ledwinka the founder of the whole glorious enterprise -

(they have a museum as well https://www.tatramuseum.cz/index.php?r=5&idj=1 )

[JimH]

Happy Journey is one of the best (and most bonkers) car films ever made.

Back on topic. Rear engined cars are bad because the layout hangs all the weight over the rear axle. Apparently.

It is completely different to almost every Audi built since the early 70s which hangs the engine way over the front axle. Completely and utterly different in every way imaginable.

[Yoss]

^^ Tatra trucks. They're not rear engined but they're still air cooled V8s (or V12's) so they're still doing things their own way. 

At least I think they are, I know they started offering water cooled as well. I don't know if the air cooled engines are euro 6 compliant. 

[Asimo]

Drag is not the only racing in the U.S.

Linwood's finest 

 

 

This Alpine video makes me glad mine wasn't a turbo.?

 In Europe, in it's day, the NSU TT was considered to be quite a weapon...Still is.

As is the wee Simca, in it's field.

 

 

Scale model at double-size. Deutz air-cooled turbo-Diesel.

 

 

[martc]

2 hours ago, Yoss said:

^^ Tatra trucks. They're not rear engined but they're still air cooled V8s (or V12's) so they're still doing things their own way. 

At least I think they are, I know they started offering water cooled as well. I don't know if the air cooled engines are euro 6 compliant. 

 

Here's a couple of Tatra chasis from their 'Defence' range - they look air cooled and v shaped to me.

Note the one below is right hand drive, I wonder where that is going?

[Yoss]

Lovely. Would. 

[Gord]

Loving the old rallying videos, esp the Imps and Corvairs.

Adding to these, some Skodas in action!

Just a note: getting shot of the positive camber swing axle suspension, which seemed so popular on 60s rear engine cars, makes all the difference.

While the press were busy generally bashing the Skoda in the 70s-80s, Skoda were busy being very successful rallying, wining their class in the RAC every time they entered. Some people laugh to think of one of the cheapest cars for sale in the West as being being successful rally cars, but when you see them in action:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPp7mJmpRDI

Driving on the edge!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9zgW9CF5IA&list=LLq97Ou-tNOWKBpqb16ai8uA&index=559&t=231s

The inside view makes me clench my buttocks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZYEHInbgls&t=20s

An old Skoda going a little bit faster than a BM around a track!

Thank you for looking

Gord

[garethj]

This is exactly how my Renault 8 1100 drove.  I didn’t do the fancy footwork or anything, just drop it into second, steer a bit aggressively and then boot the throttle on the apex?
https://youtu.be/YeLi2TEvMII

[JimH]

We don’t seem to be the dictionary definition of Petrolicious’ target market but I love this one. Not only does it feature the greatest rear engined car ever but also it has a brilliant last line. 

 

I love Alpines, me.

[Rocket88]

On 1/23/2020 at 9:19 AM, Skut said:

So once they completely redesigned it the vehicle no longer had the capacity to kill so easily. Very laudable.

No great redesign required......in fact most of the Corvair's issues were down to incorrectly inflated tyres. Good tyres, and at the correct pressure, sorted out most of the handling woes. Anti roll helped. Nader didn't even have a driving licence when he wrote 'unsafe at any speed'

[Skut]

2 hours ago, colc said:

No great redesign required......in fact most of the Corvair's issues were down to incorrectly inflated tyres. Good tyres, and at the correct pressure, sorted out most of the handling woes.

Are you saying they didn't redesign it? Because they most definitely did for the 65 model year. Or that the redesign that GM instigated before they'd ever even heard of Nader was unnecessary. 

[dollywobbler]

One issue that may have been mentioned somewhere in this is that stopping a rear-engined car can be tricky, because of the lack of weight over the wheels that do most of the stopping. Doesn't seem quite so much of an issue when you only have one front wheel though from personal experience...

[JimH]

Most of the issues with sitting the engine in the back or towards the back is that you lack weight over the front wheels. Which can lead to issues trying to stop or stay in a straight line on a windy motorway. I drove a T3 Notachback for several years and you got used to second guessing what the wind was doing in an effort to stay bewteen the white lines. 

If I consult my genuine VW workshop manual for the VW1500 sitting on the shelf at my desk it confirms that the recommended tyre pressures are 24psi in the rear and 15psi for the fronts. That probably tells you everything you need to know.

ETA: WTF goes on with my fingers that I can never, ever spell bewteen properly?

[Sir Snipes]

I had to Google the Tatra v8;

Doesn't look too bad. Very 90s. 300hp v8. 

[Rocket88]

1 hour ago, Skut said:

Are you saying they didn't redesign it? Because they most definitely did for the 65 model year. Or that the redesign that GM instigated before they'd ever even heard of Nader was unnecessary. 

It was redesigned, but not massively....the original set up was adequate , as long as the caveats I've mentioned were taken on board.