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AS and the Environment...

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15 minutes ago, somewhatfoolish said:

Fuel tax is a poor way of discouraging rush hour driving as EFI/common rail engines are very efficient and don't guzzle fuel like carburetted engines or mechanically injected diesels at idle. Road pricing on the other hand can do much more, the wanky neologism is granularity but it offers much greater flexibility in what can be incentivised or discouraged; potentially you could charge morons £eleventy a day to deliver and collect their devil spawn at the school gate rather than make them walk, not stopping them doing stupid or anti-social things just taxing them punitively.

Surely that's the point? You burn more fuel. You waste. You pollute. You pay more tax.

Anyway, I look forward to the UK one day becoming the first country to ever introduce road pricing. Every vehicle with a black box - including those millions that temporarily enter/leave our ports every year. It will be a spider's web of fraud and litigation. Who will ever determine how an individual journey will be priced? A nice idea I agree, but utterly non-implementable.

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58 minutes ago, HillmanImp said:

If you don't buy your parts from China its fine. There are 15 ships that apparently produce as much carbon as all the cars in the world.

https://inews.co.uk/news/long-reads/cargo-container-shipping-carbon-pollution-515489

Concrete is apparently a bastard too. It produces CO2 when making clinker which I thought was another word for winnits stuck to your arse hair but apparently its burnt coal residue. 

 

So this is something of a misleading headline as although, yes shipping is extremely polluting in its totality, it's contribution the world economy is phenomenal. And the emissions it creates are something like 1/100th (literally) of road transport. Rail is about halfway in between on a logarithmic scale. However, shipping (and air travel) are largely as cheap as they are because their fuel is not taxed at all. Zilch. In the UK, they don't even pay VAT. Obviously this kind of has to be the case as there has to be some sort of global consensus (which will never happen) to tax fuel for international journeys but whereas your super efficient Volvo B5 hybrid double decker bus has to pay £1.30 per litre of diesel, your Easyjet flight to Magaluf has to pay only 40p.

VAT free sales in the UK: Most food, children's clothing, books, aircraft fuel. One of these doesn't sound like it fits the pattern.

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3 minutes ago, willswitchengage said:

So this is something of a misleading headline as although, yes shipping is extremely polluting in its totality, it's contribution the world economy is phenomenal. And the emissions it creates are something like 1/100th (literally) of road transport.

I was just reading this:

It has been estimated that just one of these container ships, the length of around six football pitches, can produce the same amount of pollution as 50 million cars. The emissions from 15 of these mega-ships match those from all the cars in the world. And if the shipping industry were a country, it would be ranked between Germany and Japan as the sixth-largest contributor to global CO2 emissions.

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1 hour ago, HillmanImp said:

 

Concrete is apparently a bastard too. It produces CO2 when making clinker which I thought was another word for winnits stuck to your arse hair but apparently its burnt coal residue. 

 

Just think how much is in each of they windymill bases too. And the turbines possibly come over on one of those 15 ships. Wind turbines, they'll save the planet...……………………………..aye, ok.

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Brings back memories of a 6th Month Contract as a Warranty Improvement Engineer for a company making Power Converters for Wind Turbines. 

So, this particular morning I had to Email the customer with "Failed at 15 minutes old, evidence of salt water, 3 litres in total, would you like us to quote for repair ? It's about 10K.  If the commissioning team had returned it straight away without plugging it in, we would have charged £300. Root cause Dipping it in the sea, and pulling 10,000 Volts through it" 

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14 minutes ago, HillmanImp said:

I was just reading this:

It has been estimated that just one of these container ships, the length of around six football pitches, can produce the same amount of pollution as 50 million cars. ...

....over the course of how long? A day? A week? A month? A year?

The trouble with statistics is that we can make 'em "prove" anything we want. 

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4 minutes ago, tul66 said:

Just think how much is in each of they windymill bases too. And the turbines possibly come over on one of those 15 ships. Wind turbines, they'll save the planet...……………………………..aye, ok.

And this is what happens when you build something like a wind farm in an inaccessible and inhospitable environment...

https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/18029416.1bn-rampion-wind-farm-will-shut-weeks-due-fault/

https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/18078275.rampion-wind-farm-back-online-month-repairs/

 

Apparently needed special equipment brought in from somewhere Norway? Not sure and can't find a link

I'm still hoping someone who really does know about all this stuff will respond to this thread as I'm only going by the adage that if it looks wrong, then it is wrong!

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So this is something of a misleading headline as although, yes shipping is extremely polluting in its totality, it's contribution the world economy is phenomenal. And the emissions it creates are something like 1/100th (literally) of road transport. Rail is about halfway in between on a logarithmic scale. However, shipping (and air travel) are largely as cheap as they are because their fuel is not taxed at all. Zilch. In the UK, they don't even pay VAT. Obviously this kind of has to be the case as there has to be some sort of global consensus (which will never happen) to tax fuel for international journeys but whereas your super efficient Volvo B5 hybrid double decker bus has to pay £1.30 per litre of diesel, your Easyjet flight to Magaluf has to pay only 40p.

VAT free sales in the UK: Most food, children's clothing, books, aircraft fuel. One of these doesn't sound like it fits the pattern.

 

Okay, but, for example, do we really need to move spring water from France to Scotland, or Norway to Italy and vice versa?

A large proportion of the 'contribution to the world economy' or freight is utterly irrational and wasteful.

 

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22 minutes ago, HillmanImp said:

I was just reading this:

It has been estimated that just one of these container ships, the length of around six football pitches, can produce the same amount of pollution as 50 million cars. The emissions from 15 of these mega-ships match those from all the cars in the world. And if the shipping industry were a country, it would be ranked between Germany and Japan as the sixth-largest contributor to global CO2 emissions.

Any statistic I read that starts with "It has been estimated", I automatically assume to be bollocks until proven otherwise.  It's like the "I have been told..." on eBay listings ("I have been told this will be a cheap fix", etc).

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4 minutes ago, wuvvum said:

Any statistic I read that starts with "It has been estimated", I automatically assume to be bollocks until proven otherwise.  It's like the "I have been told..." on eBay listings ("I have been told this will be a cheap fix", etc).

98.8% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

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11 minutes ago, FakeConcern said:

And this is what happens when you build something like a wind farm in an inaccessible and inhospitable environment...

https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/18029416.1bn-rampion-wind-farm-will-shut-weeks-due-fault/

https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/18078275.rampion-wind-farm-back-online-month-repairs/

 

Apparently needed special equipment brought in from somewhere Norway? Not sure and can't find a link

I'm still hoping someone who really does know about all this stuff will respond to this thread as I'm only going by the adage that if it looks wrong, then it is wrong!

Had to laugh at this from the first link. 

Its 116 turbines generate enough electricity to power 350,000 homes.

Well they may do if they were working!

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Thinking a bit more about the container ships thing.

The 15 largest container vessels in the world can each carry over 20,000 TEU containers.  One TEU is equivalent to one articulated lorry trailer.  Therefore between them these ships are equivalent to 300,000 articulated lorries in terms of carrying capacity.  300,000 articulated lorries would use an awful lot of diesel over the distances that container ships cover.

As we have already established in this thread that the low-speed 2-stroke diesel engine as fitted to most large container vessels is the most thermally efficient type of internal combustion engine, and as there is (as far as I can make out) a direct correlation between fuel consumption and CO2 output. that makes the shipping industry less polluting in terms of global warming than road transport.  Obvs other pollutants are a different issue, but as has already been discussed that is being worked on - some of the latest ships even use Adblue to help keep their exhausts clean.

The best way to reduce the amount of pollution caused by shipping is to reduce the amount of crap we buy from China.

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1 hour ago, wuvvum said:

The best way to reduce the amount of pollution caused by shipping is to reduce the amount of crap we buy from China.

Or use them to ship free condoms to the entire World? It is people, or rather the rapidly growing number of them that is the problem. 

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Maersk's current workhorse, the triple-E boxboat, can carry 18000 TEU and up to ~170,000 tonnes of stuff; they burn perhaps 200 tonnes of HFO a day at 20 knots, which is 379kg per mile, or 2.2 grammes per tonne/mile. That's quite efficient. Comparison with cars on any level is a bit silly. The tax issue is a live one for international shipping and aviation; the stumbling block is that any taxation needs to be applied globally otherwise you end up with everyone buying fuel where it's tax free and very little or none where it is taxed. Getting global agreement on this like everything else is like herding cats.

2 hours ago, willswitchengage said:

Surely that's the point? You burn more fuel. You waste. You pollute. You pay more tax.

Anyway, I look forward to the UK one day becoming the first country to ever introduce road pricing. Every vehicle with a black box - including those millions that temporarily enter/leave our ports every year. It will be a spider's web of fraud and litigation. Who will ever determine how an individual journey will be priced? A nice idea I agree, but utterly non-implementable.

Eminently feasible, most modernz have GPRS built in, the roads that need to be priced already have practically universal mobile coverage.  Legislation aside this is a clever bit of software writing* away from happening. Road fuel is already highly taxed in the UK, taxing it more is likely to have wider economic impact.

 

*may contain sweeping statement.

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14 hours ago, HillmanImp said:

I was just reading this:

It has been estimated that just one of these container ships, the length of around six football pitches, can produce the same amount of pollution as 50 million cars. The emissions from 15 of these mega-ships match those from all the cars in the world. And if the shipping industry were a country, it would be ranked between Germany and Japan as the sixth-largest contributor to global CO2 emissions.

Don't worry, not having a go at you!

let's assume the world's biggest 15 ships are all Emma Maersks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Mærsk says they burn 14 tonnes of fuel per hour. 14 * 15 (total ships) * 24 * 365 = 1.8 million tonnes of fuel per year burned.

Fuel consumed by road vehicles worldwide is a bit harder to find, but I found that consumed by the USA. https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/oil-and-petroleum-products/use-of-oil.php

The USA consumes 9.3 million barrels per day of 'finished motor gasoline'. There are 158 litres in a barrel so that's 9.3m * 158 = 1.47 bn litres consumed per day. That's 1.47 m tonnes. Multiply by 365 days in a year and the automotive consumption of petroleum in the USA alone is 536 million tonnes.

I don't think the inews journalist did this calculation. I'll admit he may have been talking about dirty emissions (SOx) etc however.

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14 hours ago, somewhatfoolish said:

Maersk's current workhorse, the triple-E boxboat, can carry 18000 TEU and up to ~170,000 tonnes of stuff; they burn perhaps 200 tonnes of HFO a day at 20 knots, which is 379kg per mile, or 2.2 grammes per tonne/mile. That's quite efficient. Comparison with cars on any level is a bit silly.

I just did though, and if my calculator bashing was done correctly, each of your 18,000 artics would have to be capable of 215mpg at 23mph to give the same nominal efficiency.

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Mrs Concern has just showed this article to me...

 

 

SUVs second biggest cause of emissions rise, figures reveal

If SUV drivers were a nation, they would rank seventh in the world for carbon emissions

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/ng-interactive/2019/oct/25/suvs-second-biggest-cause-of-emissions-rise-figures-reveal

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On 12/5/2019 at 8:58 PM, willswitchengage said:

Surely that's the point? You burn more fuel. You waste. You pollute. You pay more tax.

Anyway, I look forward to the UK one day becoming the first country to ever introduce road pricing. Every vehicle with a black box - including those millions that temporarily enter/leave our ports every year. It will be a spider's web of fraud and litigation. Who will ever determine how an individual journey will be priced? A nice idea I agree, but utterly non-implementable.

The yanks already have some street lights with ANPR in, if all UK streetlights were replaced with them then they could, theoretically, road price all areas covered by them. That would be most/ nearly all urban areas and main arterial roads which are also most prone to congestion and pollution problems. So could they do it? Probably, will they? Can’t see it myself.

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