New shitter. 1982 Citroen VISA.

[Jimblob]

I would agree Tim, the engine in my air cooled Visa is one of the main appeals! I love the sound of it and rinsing it of its 36hp is a lot of fun. I'm sure it can be got going with enough persistence!!

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[dollywobbler]

On 8/25/2020 at 3:34 PM, Lankytim said:

I think these engines are worth a few £££ to 2CV perverts,  If i can't get it to run I could maybe cash in this lump and fit a regular 4 cyl petrol lump from a similar model. It would be a bit of a shame though, as I think the whizzy aircooled 2 cyl motor is one of the more appealing features of this old crock. 

I think that has changed, with the arrival of aftermarket 'big bore' kits for 2CVs. It's easier to swap the pistons and barrels rather than modify a Visa engine (due to the optical ignition) to fit a 2CV. I do agree with you though. The flat-twin Visas have a lot of charm.

[Lankytim]

Time for a bit of an update, I’ve been moaning about this thing in the other threads  when really the moaning should be going on in here,

Anyway, in condensed form, it still won’t run, the starter was replaced with incorrect item (and the original lost) and now a further update.

Today the sun was out so I had a crack at sorting the brakes. One front flexi had been rubbing on the wheel so needed to be replaced so I cracked on with that first. It all went pretty smoothly and I was looking forward to bleeding it all up to see how well things were working. The front calipers had been pushed in a while ago to allow the visa to be moved around.  A rear cylinder started weeping so was replaced from the stash,  with the help of my 11 yr old the brakes were bled up. The front calipers are very stiff but not seized solid but will still need some attention. Before I packed away I gave the pedal a good push and found it slowly sinking to the floor. Not great- the drivers side caliper had popped a seal and is now pissing out brake fluid. Still, it’s better it happens now than on the road. I’ve never rebuilt a caliper before but I think I’ve got a set of seals. As usual, the alloy twinpot calipers seem to be pretty hard to get hold of at a decent price and later visas use cast iron items which are far more common but I don’t think can be retrofitted. 
 

On a brighter note all the brake pipes appear to have been replaced in copper, which is nice. I was sure I was going to snap a brake pipe or two.

In amongst the spares stash that came with the car was an eBay receipt with a previous owners name an address on. I found him on Facebook and I’m he’s invited me to ring him up for a chat. Apparently the visa was immaculate when he owned it and it’s much missed. He’s still into Citroens and now lives in France, I’m looking forward to updating him. 

[barrett]

Incredibly pleased to see an update on this! My Visa is one of only a couple of cars I really regret selling (all of them Citroens, actually). Good luck with the brakes - I don't have the confidence to fuck about with safety-critical stuff like that but I'm sure you'll nail it. How complex can a 40-yr old caliper be?

Does this mean it starts and runs etc?

[Lankytim]

1 minute ago, barrett said:

 

Does this mean it starts and runs etc?

No, I'm actually no nearer getting it running as the starter was burnt out, sent off for exchange and they sent a 2CV one. It's all pretty annoying tbh but I feel like I'm slowly getting somewhere with it. I keep spotting things that are in pretty good condition considering it's an old Citroen. The floors and sills for example are amazingly good.

[barrett]

I found some Visa bits in the garage today actually. No starter sadly but I'll see what I have and if it's useful you're welcome to it!

Edit: how the hell can you confuse a Visa and 2CV starter??? Amateurs, man!

[jonathan_dyane]

It’s looking tidy mind, have you been polishing that back quarter?

[Lankytim]

24 minutes ago, barrett said:

I found some Visa bits in the garage today actually. No starter sadly but I'll see what I have and if it's useful you're welcome to it!

Edit: how the hell can you confuse a Visa and 2CV starter??? Amateurs, man!

That would be amazing, calipers, interior, doors, bonnet, complete ignition system would be handy! The 2CV starter is virtually identical except the pinion only has 9 teeth instead of 10 so it will physically fit but makes a right racket, but you're right. absolute amateurs. 

19 minutes ago, jonathan_dyane said:

It’s looking tidy mind, have you been polishing that back quarter?

No, not yet,  but got a LIDL polishing mop on order and I'm dying to get cracking on it. 

[Angrydicky]

Hey Scott @barrett , my mate also has a Visa and (without wishing to tread on Tim’s toes) he needs some parts too. Definitely needs a carb, at least one wheel centre cap and a side repeater. 

[HillmanImp]

19 minutes ago, Angrydicky said:

Hey Scott @barrett , my mate also has a Visa and (without wishing to tread on Tim’s toes) he needs some parts too. Definitely needs a carb, at least one wheel centre cap and a side repeater. 

I've got a load of side repeaters somewhere. I'll try and find them this morning when I'm out working on my Visa (needs welding in front n/s floor). 

[Lankytim]

I had a busy day yesterday, working in the garden, removing brick built planters to allow more tinkering space for old clunkers (because, who needs plants, right?) After a few hours carting rubble and soil I finally managed to get an hour to ring the previous owner, as mentioned Julian now lives in France and is still a real Citrophile owning a twin pot Visa and a couple of 2cvs. He really looked after my Visa when he owned it and could supply me with quite a bit of background history. Allegedly it was rust free which I can believe as it's full of waxoyl and is generally really well preserved, the only rotten places being where water has ran into hollow sections and been trapped for a number of years when it was sat in a hedge before I bought it. Julian had issues with the ignition system which were all fairly easy to diagnose and fix, the flywheel sensors being the number 1 failure point, fortunately they are easy to test. I had tested them previously but it's worth trying them again, after that the ignition computer is the second favorite culprit having been replaced at least once in the past. 

Julian told me of another method to get a spark. These 652cc engines were a popular swap into 2CVs but there's nowhere to put the points box as the bolt holes aren't cast into the 652cc crank case and the cam shaft hasn't got the attachment for the distributor shaft, however these bolt holes can be drilled and tapped fairly easily and there's an aftermarket rotor arm kit that slides into the Visa cam and locks into position with a sort of wedge arrangement, I think, similar to bike handlebars. If I can swap to a points box set up it'll eliminate lots of potential failure points and I can fit a 123 electronic ignition set up. It all sounds promising anyway. 

[dollywobbler]

On 2/28/2021 at 8:10 AM, Angrydicky said:

Hey Scott @barrett , my mate also has a Visa and (without wishing to tread on Tim’s toes) he needs some parts too. Definitely needs a carb, at least one wheel centre cap and a side repeater. 

Pretty sure the side repeaters are the same as 2CV. I may have a spare. They are often absolute shite though and rarely actually work! I find it an annual struggle at MOT time.

The 123 unit picks up cam position via a pair of magnets. On 2CVs, these attach to the advance mechanism posts (you ditch the weights). I wonder if there's another way to attach them to the camshaft?

[Lankytim]

Following advice I cracked open the Haynes and test meter and got stuck in to the electrics (again). 

The flywheel sensors had apparently already been tested and checked out but I decided to test them again seeing as they’ve been mentioned to me by a few people. 
 

The sensors are meant to knock out  0.5-2 volts when the peg on the flywheel isn’t directly below them and then go up to 5-7volts when the peg passes by. The output voltages on both were just under 9 volts no matter where the peg was positioned. Is it safe to say the sensors are knackered?  I hope so. 

[Mr Pastry]

I take it you have 12 volts from the car battery going into the sensor and you are measuring between the output of the sensor and earth?  If so, on the basis that the sensor is not responding to the position of the peg it seems safe to assume that it is dead.   The meter may not be entirely accurate but you'd expect some change in voltage if the sensor was working.

[Lankytim]

39 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

I take it you have 12 volts from the car battery going into the sensor and you are measuring between the output of the sensor and earth?  If so, on the basis that the sensor is not responding to the position of the peg it seems safe to assume that it is dead.   The meter may not be entirely accurate but you'd expect some change in voltage if the sensor was working.

Correct, unless there's something I've missed. The only thing throwing doubt on this theory is both the sensors appear to be karked rather than just the one.

[Mr Pastry]

Agree, that is suspicious. Can you measure the resistance of the sensors rather than the output?  Not sure where that is going, but it might be a double check.  

[Mr Pastry]

The only diagram I have is this one.  Is this the same as yours?   Sorry if it's a silly question, I don't know how far you have got, but the sensors here have 3 wires, which ones are you measuring? 

[Lankytim]

21 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

The only diagram I have is this one.  Is this the same as yours?   Sorry if it's a silly question, I don't know how far you have got, but the sensors here have 3 wires, which ones are you measuring? 

This looks like the diagram in the Haynes manual. On the sensors, (1 and 2) I measured the voltage from all three wires on each sensor. 1 is earth (I think) 2 is the live from the ignition switch and 3 is the sensor output to the ignition computer (Item 6).  Terminal 2 on the sensors were measured at 12v and 3 were measured at 8.7 and 8.6V respectively., they should be at 0.5-2V and go up to to 5-7V as the peg on the flywheel passes by. 

 

[Mr Pastry]

Looking back over this thread, you have had sparks and pops and bangs out of it, which suggests that the ignition system  is functional.  Clearly the starter motor problem needs to be solved first.  There must be a starter from something like a 104 which could donate the 10 tooth pinion/clutch assembly.

[Stanky]

Dropped you a pm re the 10-tooth starter

[Lankytim]

I'm worried about falling into a rut with this old Cit so to push things forward a little I've just ordered a pair of new plates from "FancyPlates.com" I couldn't find an exact match for the original number plate font but I guess in the grand scheme of things it's not really an issue at all. FancyPlates have three fonts available for pre 2001 style plates, this is font  B which looks to be alright for an early 80's motor.   These came in at £30 delivered, I'll update the thread when they  arrive. I love new parts! 

[dollywobbler]

That sounds like something I'd do! "Hmm, engine won't run. I'll  buy some wheels for it."

[Lankytim]

Just now, dollywobbler said:

That sounds like something I'd do! "Hmm, engine won't run. I'll  buy some wheels for it."

It's all about keeping the momentum going I think.. Plus if I spend a fortune on it I'll pretty much have to get it running or accept losing everything I've sunk into it 

I'm pricing up the "nuclear" option if I can't get the original ignition system to work. There's an adaptor available to allow a distributor shaft to be fitted into the end of the cam,

https://ecas2cvparts.co.uk/products/x-adaptor-to-allow-fitment-of-123evo-ignition-to-standard-652cc-visa-engine-a1-5160

And the "123" electronic ignition system. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/184656712226?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=184656712226&targetid=1140298851293&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=1007121&poi=&campaignid=12128875177&mkgroupid=117237767255&rlsatarget=aud-629407027145:pla-1140298851293&abcId=9300481&merchantid=138360883&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxv_AldGZ7wIVCO3tCh2WhwzOEAQYAiABEgIJEfD_BwE

All this will come in at £300 plus which is a big wedge to swallow, maybe they could be available used? Who knows.  The good news is it will eliminate the original ignition system, all of which is pretty much unavailable and when found costs £££. I'm still mulling it over but what use is a car that doesn't run? 

[Lankytim]

Woop! Talk about fast delivery! It’s taken approx 15 hrs from ordering to them appearing on my doormat. They look really nice quality too. 

[greengartside]

6 minutes ago, Lankytim said:

Woop! Talk about fast delivery! It’s taken approx 15 hrs from ordering to them appearing on my doormat. They look really nice quality too. 

Wow, they’re pretty bloody good. I always toyed with the idea of buying a set off them - definitely one to keep in the bookmark list. Nice one. 

[Lankytim]

They look alright, although they’re  about 10mm longer than the originals so the front one doesn’t sit quite perfectly in the recess, I might shave a bit off or may leave it. 
 

While I was out there I removed the front wheels and took another look at the brakes. The leak wasn’t a burst seal but rather where the flexi enters the caliper. Compared to the opposite side there’s a small steel adaptor thing missing, I did notice it at the time but didn’t think anything of it.  Anyway, the caliper is leaking under pressure where this adaptor should be, so I’m on the lookout for one of those.

I popped the pads out and worked the pistons in and out  few times. They do seem to be freeing up reasonably well, after a hard application of pressure on the brake pedalI can move each disc around by hand but they’re still a bit stiff. If I leave it a minute they loose up considerably, maybe the master cylinder isn’t allowing the fluid to return?

[Lankytim]

I had a couple of hours spare so I opened up my new toy, a Lidl car polisher! I gave the Visa a good wash and dug out my polishes. I’ve used G10 in the past as a cutting compound but I’ve totally run out. The closest I had was a bottle of T cut that probably came free in the boot of a scrapper I’ve bought years ago. Not ideal but ok for practicing with I suppose.

Due to time constraints I only did the front end, one rear quarter and the boot lid but it’s a good way to compare the original oxidised bodywork to the cut and polished fresh paint. 

The reviews on this polisher thing seem generally good but there’s a few that say it’s a bit overpowered and it’s very easy to remove a load of your paintwork by mistake. I set the speed to 2 and got cracking. 

The T cut needed a bit of work to actually start cutting the paint but after a few passes it seemed to be working. I cut the paint as much as I dared, washed it all off and applied some meguiar's carnauba wax. There’s probably a few stages I’ve missed out but tbh I just wanted a play with the polishing mop, I’ll probably return and do the whole car again soon enough.

Overall, I’m pretty impressed with the result! I can see a reflection in the paintwork and water beads and runs away in a very satisfying fashion. Compared to the old paintwork on the roof and doors there’s a huge difference. When I’ve got more time I’ll go over the whole body with a decent cutting compound  and try to get a nice deep shine on every panel. 
 

This Lidl mop cost £40 or so and it seems like a decent bit of kit. Definitely worth getting if you want to beatify your chod but don’t want to spend a fortune. 

[Asimo]

Shiny beige: like!

[MJK 24]

Huge mojo boost right there!!

[Jimblob]

Hi Tim, great to see the progress, as you know I have an identical car same colour, year and everything!
Interesting to see your polishing progress... Mine needs this too (and more critically at the moment, a fuel tank leak fixing and CV boots replacing... All happening soon!!)
Unfortunately I'm not nearby (pe28) but you'd be very welcome to bring your car to mine and swap bits out to diagnose yours until it's running... Have you checked fuel pump?
Have also needed to overhaul brakes (I replaced both calipers and rear cylinders, and some of the brake lines).
Hoping we get the 2 cars together at a Citroen show!
Jamie

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