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Fumbler's Crocks- Pre-MoT Checking/Bodging/Panicking


Fumbler

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6 minutes ago, Ghosty said:

I'd have said red wheel/silver trim.

I dunno man, I just don't think the red would fit in well with the car. White could look good in my mind because it's a red (partically pink) car. Then again, I can't really go wrong with just silver. Silver is painless and won't offend anyone all that much. Then again, who cares?

 

I forgot to add that the reason why I'm even considering different colours for the wheels is because the car's already had its paintwork and colour scheme monkeyed with in previous decades. It's never going to look right unless I do a full respray, so I thought I might as well have some fun experimenting.

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16 minutes ago, Crackers said:

What exactly is "hammered" paint, beyond a distant Father Ted reference? I'm struggling to visualise.

Ah, let me find it for you.

220px-Muffe_Eines_Steigleitungsrohrs_Det

Here it is!

The advantage of using such a paint for the steel wheels is that it'll help conceal all the pitting that's on show absolutely everywhere. It'll make the finish more uniform as I'd need to be a bit more finicky ij preparation with using conventional gloss.

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Just now, Crackers said:

Ah yeah, got it. Long day.

With that said, I'd personally go for plain silver on wheels and trims - I feel like that hammered finish will hold dirt and brake dust much more than a smooth finish. YMMV. 

Having been around this type of paint in old labs and stuff, the finish isn't too ripply but I get what you mean. Fortunately my BX's wheels aren't slotted so brake dust never gets to the outside. The flipside is that dirt accumulates behind the trims with no method of escape.

I'd make a poll but it ruins the formatting.

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Just now, Crackers said:

In which case, I think you should try getting hammered.

Not until a Friday evening, mind.

Ahhh good man good man. I shall restrain myself.

In doing more reading, the constituents of this type of paint make it more hardwearing, resistant to UV and the coating is harder. I'll get a can and have a play methinks.

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I've set up an account on the BX Club Forum. Rest assured, I won't detract at all from posting here, it just helps to have a presence there for the expertise side of things, even if the forum side of the club is dying down somewhat.

https://bxclub.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22879

Edit: it's already proving useful, there are apparently two fixes for the lazy starter, which is a common issue! Who'd have thought it. I've asked for what these may be so hopefully I can get stuck (literally) into remediating it. Quite why PSA decided to plong the starter motor directly below the intake manifold, necessitating removal of the intake system to get to it, is beyond me. French.

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  • Fumbler changed the title to Fumbler's Crocks- Starter Shenannigans

So while I still umm and ahh over wheel and trim colours, I thought it prudent to begin diagnosing once and for all the issue with my starter motor not cranking the engine. Replacing the main earth helped, because it turns over faster than it did before, but the battery is too small. A very affordable Yuasa 096 size battery for BX diesels has since been ordered.

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The kindly folks on the BX forum pointed me in the direction of how to investigate things, namely whether the starter circuit had a relay added into it at some point. Disconnect the red spade connector and see if a relay clicks. I disconnected it and there's no click, so no relay retrofit. So, looking at the motor solenoid, we have 3 external cables connecting to it. The large lug at the top connects directly with the battery. I have no idea about where the crimped cable behind is going or what it's doing. Regardless, it's connected to the positive of the solenoid so it must be doing something somewhere...

This is what a new unit looks like for comparison:
Image 31 - LRS00458 Starter Motor Fits Peugeot 205 1.1,1.4, Peugeot 104 1.1,1.2,1.4&Citr/Bx

EDIT: After reconnecting the spade connector, I checked to make sure the car still cranks over, but there a delay of half a second before anything happens. I wonder if the switch or solenoid is giving out.

What does the hive mind think? I'll get out the multimeter tomorrow to see if it's still connected elsewhere. I have a suspicion that the cable in conduit is a replacement as it's newer than the rest of the wiring present, however that may be incorrect. Access is a bitch so fumbling around with a socket set and sandpaper while being pinned in place with the intake manifold might be entertaining.

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I've adjusted the wiper arm because the blind spot -from the rain- on my side of the screen was biblical. Meh, who needs to see around right-hand corners and directions anyway? I've made it better and all is kind of well. Naturally I didn't take any photos at all.

What I did instead was bypass the ignition switch with some wire to investigate the condition of the starting system. I recorded videos of cranking with the key and basically hotwiring the starter solenoid to the battery. Below are the results-

 

So it looks as if the ignition switch certainly isn't helping with things. It's a good job I've ordered the parts to make that circuit relay controlled. I've traced the wire from the solenoid to a taped-up bundle of wires. The taping was done by Waso when they fitted the alarm. Annoyingly most of the air system will require removal for good access, but it could be worse. It's not all that hard to remove the components.  The slow cranking as a whole is most likely down to the piddly battery currently connected, which shall shortly be replaced, and the starter itself being grotty and tired. This shall also be replaced at some point as soon as I get the money.

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  • Fumbler changed the title to Fumbler's Crocks- Starter Shenannigans Act 2
  • Fumbler changed the title to Fumbler's Crocks- Starter Shenannigans Act 3- I've Mended A Thing
  • Fumbler changed the title to Fumbler's Crocks- Double Mended

OK, let's start with the previous day's efforts.

PXL_20210529_182907641.thumb.jpg.c6131ddb9960e19b5815b4c63c6a9708.jpg

I install a transparent relay on the bulkhead relay bar. That blue wire you see is the coil negative. That's attached to the relay fixing via a crimped lug. The black relay next to it is the coil relay. It's nice having it so accessible.

PXL_20210529_182915633.thumb.jpg.d26d111f943ba2db2bbf99af5caa8d13.jpg

I then run my wires through the flexible conduit running through the bulkhead and down to where the main loom is. I'm using standard UK/EU colour 2.5mm cable as it's very easy and affordable to get. You'll notice I also crimped a lug onto the original auxilliary earth, so that's now sorted.

PXL_20210529_182911031.thumb.jpg.a2ae1a43e119553f1b8e92ae2bd89efb.jpg

The solenoid switch connection is removed from the solenoid and attached to one of the brown wires I ran down the conduit. In doing this, the current from the ignition switch is diverted to powering the relay's coil, which is a much less strenuous load. Look at all this free space I have!

PXL_20210529_201329354.thumb.jpg.992e40d5eb110e0c2102cd3681e76868.jpg

Some aluminium tape is used for some heat shielding. The cable is ziptied to the brake wear sensor conduit and enough clearance for the airbox and other things is made. No tangles or snags here.

PXL_20210529_202016177.thumb.jpg.977878df362d6de2e6a24a844e67b4ac.jpg

Green means good. The circuit works.

After testing, I wired in my permanent feed to the solenoid to the battery. This consisted of running a brown wire from the positive battery clamp to the common terminal of the relay. The wire going to the starter motor was then connected to the Normally Open terminal, meaning the engine will turn over once the relay is energised. By doing this, the load on the keyswitch is significantly reduced.

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PART TWO! And a picture heavy one, so be warned.

PXL_20210530_155831171.thumb.jpg.19cf20dae9ac54e4a4bd169849bd457d.jpg

The old one

PXL_20210530_161456760.thumb.jpg.afaf7ce072d356625b188039ce5d72a8.jpgPXL_20210530_161500839.thumb.jpg.7c405e7d1df0330d044a5ffba0802432.jpg

And it's gone. The gasket was new and wasn't torn, the new carb's base is the exact same as the old one so it plopped on with no trouble. Interesting to see the manifold was cast using polystyrene. I thought they'd use die-casting considering how many engines used this manifold.

PXL_20210530_162003612.thumb.jpg.6a9e95bbb2875881e86cbe099cd6b5ad.jpg

These are the coolant channels at the carburettor base. They were plugged up tae buggereh with aluminium corrosion and other shite. Basically they were useless.

PXL_20210530_163114758.thumb.jpg.849d63be41250eebc131d83423d9a8d5.jpgPXL_20210530_163118224.thumb.jpg.4e1a7923e63d396c62c415c46f3c14d8.jpg

Plonked the new one on and began plumbing it in. Modification The First was reusing the old choke cable mount as the new one doesn't have tapped holes. The thread is something like an M4 or 5 which I can tap and get a replacement bolt for tomorrow.

PXL_20210530_163849227.thumb.jpg.c765082c9ae40110a3d6b4bb7d081a82.jpg

Throttle cable installed and tensioned along with the choke cable.

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Air intake modified and installed. We're done here.

Once the engine was running and up to temp the heater matrix was bled and carburettor was tuned. The mixture and idle speed were adjusted and I'll read the spark plugs later on when I put more miles on it. The carb was originally set incredibly rich, making the engine backfire through the neck..

So I went on a test drive.

PXL_20210530_173402051_MP.thumb.jpg.1fee8a8eff5d001a3ba4c364b69c3888.jpgPXL_20210530_173857772.thumb.jpg.cd6bf75f240a625ce88a05499c5bcabf.jpg

And noticed the throttle was sticking. It was hitting this spacer clip. I relocated it.

PXL_20210530_173900272.thumb.jpg.9a7c11690b48e637039ab685bd75f52b.jpg

Also ziptied the wrongly-sized fuel filter to its bracket and added jubilee clips to make everything safe. I still need two more for the fuel pump outlet and the input to the carb.

One thrash later, it's parked up in the layby. I'll upload a mini test video at some point.
PXL_20210530_181455037.thumb.jpg.8446b4102bfbe6b091dc7e86beb4ffc8.jpg

Sufficed to say, it definitely feels different to drive. More responsive and zippier.

Up next, WELDING!  That can wait until the end of the week. I'm knackered. (and some more engine work like fitting the heater cowel etc.)

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  • Fumbler changed the title to Fumbler's Crocks- Double Mended- £98.00 Carb Fitted, WCPGW?

Paint
PXL_20210531_182625329.thumb.jpg.5056c4705e223ac6f1cabb01e9783ac3.jpg

Fit
PXL_20210531_201933535.thumb.jpg.f1aecea2296acbfcc5b90b570ca4b96e.jpg

Looks slightly less gash. We'll see how this holds up.

The car won't start when warm if you let it sit for 10 or so minutes. The ignition module wasn't at fault, could the float level in the carb be the problem?

Also topped up the oil. It was never fully filled when I bought the car.

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  • Fumbler changed the title to Fumbler's Crocks- £98.00 Carb Help AGAIN plz!

Bloody cars. I ask ye.

So, the symptoms today include:

  • Lots of cranking when cold to get the car coughing and then eventually firing
  • Lots of cranking around 30 minutes after parking up, to get the car coughing and then eventually firing.

Given it puts up exactly the same fight when starting in these situations, what may be the cause? I have, so far, replaced the ignition module as those do have problems. However, I can't decifer whether this is fuelling or electrical related. Could the float level in the fuel bowl be part of/the problem? TIA.

Because of its poor performance today, the Micra will be taking me to work for the rest of the week. Sodding thing.

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1 minute ago, Fumbler said:

Bloody cars. I ask ye.

So, the symptoms today include:

  • Lots of cranking when cold to get the car coughing and then eventually firing
  • Lots of cranking around 30 minutes after parking up, to get the car coughing and then eventually firing.

Given it puts up exactly the same fight when starting in these situations, what may be the cause? I have, so far, replaced the ignition module as those do have problems. However, I can't decifer whether this is fuelling or electrical related. Could the float level in the fuel bowl be part of/the problem? TIA.

Because of its poor performance today, the Micra will be taking me to work for the rest of the week. Sodding thing.

Have you read the handbook that recommends full throttle for starting sometimes and no throttle other times? This depends upon the temperature of the engine but I can’t remember which way around it is!

How did you tune the new carburettor? I think the boom would recommend a CO probe but you can also use those glass Gunson spark plugs. 

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Just now, jamescarruthers said:

Have you read the handbook that recommends full throttle for starting sometimes and no throttle other times? This depends upon the temperature of the engine but I can’t remember which way around it is!

How did you tune the new carburettor? I think the boom would recommend a CO probe but you can also use those glass Gunson spark plugs. 

You can either tune using engine RPM or with a CO meter. I don't have a CO meter so by RPM it was. Simply put, you set the RPM you want, adjust the mixture until the RPM rises and stops rising, and adjust the idle RPM for a final time. I'll re-read the handbook again in case I'm missing something.

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  • Fumbler changed the title to Fumbler's Crocks- I Split The £98.00 Carb Apart

This evening, I are have mostly split both carburettors in half to see what's different. The good news is that not much actually is on top:
PXL_20210602_200620085.thumb.jpg.18cd2e6c605dcd2be4ff7dc40c6d5f9e.jpg

I swapped over the floats and needle valves. The old carburettor's needle valve appears to admit a larger volume of fuel and this was reflected by the engine being easier to start.

PXL_20210602_202245599.thumb.jpg.4015930211d2c08a5fbb97523c3de448.jpg

This is the valve that was on the new carburettor. It's weird and funky. The way it acts when coupled with the float makes it rather restrictive.

However, on the bottom (and not pictured helpfully), the main jet on the new carb is slanted upwards towards the bulkhead. The only way to access it is via a huge nut in between the coolant connections at the base. This also means I need to remove the carburettor to change the main jet if I wanted to. So, in the meantime, I examined the jets in the venturi:
PXL_20210602_200944556.thumb.jpg.23fbb54e47876c13b2c230313d2c849c.jpg

One from the old on the left, the new carb's on the right. I didn't swap these, as I suspect I'll need to change over the main jets at the same time. Fearing I'll fuck something up and ruin the idle circuit, I left the idle jet well alone. I can imagine that too is different.

After getting everything buttoned back up, I made sure the engine got to running temperature and shut it off. I'll return to it tomorrow evening and see if it's any easier to start.

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Those, if I'm looking at what I think I'm looking at, are emulsion tubes, which admit a little bit of air back into the fuel under certain conditions and are often used to prevent the fuelling from going over-rich at high speed.

The fact that the new unit has smaller drillings in the tube would suggest that it might run a little richer under some running conditions.  Exactly what is hard to say, but it shouldn't make any difference to the starting.

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7 minutes ago, Talbot said:

Those, if I'm looking at what I think I'm looking at, are emulsion tubes, which admit a little bit of air back into the fuel under certain conditions and are often used to prevent the fuelling from going over-rich at high speed.

The fact that the new unit has smaller drillings in the tube would suggest that it might run a little richer under some running conditions.  Exactly what is hard to say, but it shouldn't make any difference to the starting.

It was more out of curiousity as I had a feeling these were more to do with running as opposed to starting, as I was wondering how much different the componentry between the two was like, and how that might affect the engine's performance. As it's improved performance (and probably economy too), this is more of a "let's see what this is like!" experiment, considering the valve assemblies and jet positioning in the float bowls are different between the two.

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If there is a manual choke (I know nothing about BXs) is it working properly and giving 'full pull' at the carb end? Wouldn't explain the difficulty in hot starting though. 

-edit- ...unless the choke is only opening partially and then sticking in position when turned off - that would presumably affect both hot and cold starting 

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Indeed full pulling is occurring (suit you sir!) On the choke and I confirmed today the mechanism was working fine. The level in the bowl wasn't great when I opened it up. 

The one thing I haven't checked are jet sizes. I'm wondering if jets too small may cause issues starting, but then again I'd experience running issues as well and I'm not experiencing that.

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I'd suggest that you can diagnose if it's a fuel pump/needle valve issue, by getting it to a state where it won't start and then removing the top of the carb to see if there is actually any fuel in the float bowl.

This will likely save you chasing your tail a bit and rule that out if not.

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We've proven that the issue here is fuelling.  With the engine in a state where it was known that it would likely not start with anything other than 30 seconds of starter chrurning, a capfull of fuel was blezzed down the carb, and hey presto, it started and ran for a few seconds.

16 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

If the brand-new carb is the correct one for the engine it really isn't a good idea to pull it to bits and substitute parts from the old one which happen to be a bit different.  The designers probably knew what they were doing,

It's a copy carburettor, so very little "design" went into it.  They're also well known for having cheaper parts fitted to them, and possibly also having casting flash and other issues with them.  Changing over the needle valve seems like a very sensible thing to me, as the fact that the float chamber is low on fuel would absolutely suggest that the float valve is not admitting sufficient fuel at the point that it's needed.

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Just a couple of observations.

Removing the float out of the carb will look like there is very little fuel in it as the float displaces quite alot of fuel, recheck with the loose float dropped back in (not forgetting the effect of evaporation) 

The float valve restriction on the new carb could only hamper max throttle @ max rpm, if it didn't then it was fine for all other conditions.

Emulsion tubes are only used to limit richness at above half throttle and 3/4 ish rpm range so zero effect on starting.

Usually starting issues with carbs like this is a case of fuel evaporating out the bowl and having to crank away to refill the carb and also wet the manifold, an electric pump would fix that for the most part imo 

Mixture adjustment only changes the amount of premixed fuel and air admitted to the idle drilling, anything above a tiny throttle opening reverts to fixed settings which are adjusted via jet change only.

Float height tends to either flood the engine, or run weakly off throttle but being a moulded plastic item they're usually set correctly.

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Jikovron said:

Usually starting issues with carbs like this is a case of fuel evaporating out the bowl and having to crank away to refill the carb and also wet the manifold, an electric pump would fix that for the most part imo 

What makes no sense is that on the previous (almost identical) carb, there was no starting issue.

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Aye its definitely pointing at the carb, although feeling more responsive and zippier upon first run sort of points away from the jetting and float height etc, and more to a lack of starting enrichment.

Popping back through the carb is a weak mixture condition which lends itself to that theory that the choke isn't doing quite what it should.

Also if the float bowl and accelerator pump is partially emptying via evaporation then pumping the throttle whilst cranking will do nothing till its primed via the fuel pump (maybe a different design more prone to releasing fuel maybe?) 

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7 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

So it is in fact the wrong carb for the engine.  I will delete my post and fuck off.

???

Don't understand this post at all.  It's not the "wrong" carb for the engine, it's just a cheaper copy of the correct one.  Why would you delete your post and fuck off??  Your points were all quite valid and correct, it's just that the carb in this case doesn't quite fit into either of the categories you listed.

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  • Fumbler changed the title to Fumbler's Crocks- Pre-MoT Checking/Bodging/Panicking

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