Triumph - That was a year that was..

[Bfg]

  

Friday 23rd :

another little job tackled today was the exhaust rattling, but first I unpacked my new trolley-jack . . .

^ crumpled box but otherwise looking good.  I was surprised to see absolutely no brand or business name nor address, so perhaps this product is specifically sold to other companies who slap their own branding on it. Anyway I'm glad I bought from a reputable company ..just in case I have issues.

Nice tool, and yes at 35kg it's reasonably heavy to carry but once you have a grip and straighten up it's tolerable .. after all I'm not planning on dancing with it.   

^ my friend Rich kindly lent me a pair of brand new axle stands too, so after a block was placed under the front tyre and I'd found some packing pieces of softwood timber from a broken pallet - I was good to go.  The photo doesn't really show it but this apartment block's car park is both uneven and it has a fair slope to it.  

The cause of the rattle was clear, with the pipe having self adjusted (possibly initiated when the engine was jacked up to have the gearbox removed) and was then just touching the chassis' T-shirt plate.   Its rectification was equally as simple insomuch as I loosened the clamps to the rear cross-box silencer and lifted it clear (slight twist) and redid the clamps back up again.  So., another case of a simple five minute job having a more noticeable effect than spending hundreds of pounds and many frustrating hours of work..  Weird how that sometimes happens ..but I'm glad it does because it sorta helps balance things out.

That done I refitted the indicator relay, I'd moved out of the way when painting yesterday, and went shopping.  

Stuart, on the TR Register website replied to yesterday's paint reaction to silicon "The only way to get rid of silicone properly is a real silicone killer as acetone wont do anything, this is what I use Silicon cleaner "

Thank you to Stuart, his recommendation worked out well for me today ..  because I phoned my nearest / usual motor factors and they didn't have silicon cleaner in aerosol.  One company wanted £8 for 100ml pot of the stuff and another £11 of 200ml pot ..so I persevered looking for an aerosol and in doing so found a Wurth trade outlet here in Ipswich ..but they didn't answer the phone.  I needed to go out to a cash-point machine anyways so took the TR out for a run.  Got half the cash I needed, got some groceries, got some petrol and then went off to find this trade counter.. to see if they have a tin of the silicon cleaner, and whether they would sell to a private individual.

They would sell to me, but they didn't have an aerosol in stock.  However they did have a 1 litre tin of the same stuff, and the very kind man let me have it for the same price as the aerosol would have cost ..just £6.  I think I got a bargain there so also bought a can of carb cleaner which I frequently use. 

From there I went around to a car-paint supplier and had them colour-match Katie's signal red as a 1k to fill an aerosol can for me and to provide a small pot of touch up paint.  At £12.95 + VAT for 400ml., that was more expensive than I expected, but I guess nowadays aerosol paints are no longer cheap n' cheerful ..and this is specifically matched to the car and hand blended.

So that's it for today, a nice little run around in the sunshine, one less rattle (although that cross-box silencer really ought to have a bracket on both ends because otherwise it will only twist around again) ..and I heard the indicator relay for the first time today !  Also materials in before the weekend so I can carry on with painting the footwells / floors at my leisure.   Progress

So I bid you a good weekend., and happy travels for anyone participating in the 'Drive It Day' tomorrow.  I'll not be, but only because I have to go up the coast to collect some other bits and I need a bigger vehicle for those. 

Pete.

Edit :  'Drive It Day' is NOT tomorrow, but is on Sunday. Sorry my error.

[Bfg]

24th April :  6 hours before the Californian presidential primaries .. no wait.,  that's the wrong channel.  .. oh here we are Autoshiter's TR exploits in Ipswich, Suffolk. . .

 

No work today, gorgeous weather.. I need to pack to move house tomorrow / Monday and I needed to get to the cash-point machine and at the same time be an hour up the coastline to GO SHOPPING !  

Fortunate timing on my part, sometime during this past mid-week.. I was the first to message a former TR owner about his classified advert on that register's website.  A very pleasant gentleman, John, was offering a TR4 - TR5 Surrey top and back-light ..offering the style and combination of open-top motoring with practicality I was hoping for.  It is, in layman's terms, a fore-runner to the  "targa-top" + rear window surround, not at all dissimilar to that offered by Porsche on their 911 from 1965.  Triumph's Surrey top has been attributed to Michelotti (who styled the TR4) and a version was shown on his prototype ..which dates from 1960 or thereabouts, but of course Edwardian horseless carriages way-back-when, had their chauffeur outside the occupant's carriage, with a canvas cover over him (..if he was lucky).

Porsche further developed the idea, insomuch as they incorporated structural roll-over protection in their rear window surround and they also made the removable folding-roof section rather more sophisticated than Standard-Triumph' s rag top.  I believe their rear window also folded down (again as did some Edwardian carriages).  But still, the essence of having a back-light + removable top, is much the same.  Triumph's rear window surround was in cast aluminium and simply bolted on (was not fold down). Those are now very  expensive  ..if you can find one in good condition being offered for sale. 

The one advertised was a repro item in fibreglass, but also with a glass wrap-around window.  The fabric top was with it, together with the bows which fit between the back-light and the windscreen's header rail.  The soft-top hood on my TR4A is off a TR6 and its header rail has different fastenings, but the seller was also including the front bar of a TR6 hood frame so that the top might be adapted..  Revington TR offer the same < here >.

All that said . . .

    

^  here it is, bought and paid for, and collected in my mobile garden shed.   Its surround, I'm told, is finished in Primrose yellow.  Not ideal., whereas off-white would probably have worked on a signal red car. The glass is presently loose in the surround, and so it wouldn't be the end of the world to remove it altogether and to spray the fibreglass surround with an aerosol.  The black vinyl resting on bedding just behind it., is the Surrey top.  

I did have a quick look-see ..with it resting loosely on the car, but not sitting down properly because of the lift-a-dot fastenings from the soft-top. Unfortunately I'd accidentally switched camera's auto-focus off.   Oops !  Never-the-less I'm sure you can get the idea, below . . .

 

^ I'm well chuffed  

Pete.

[Bfg]

May 5th :

I moved the weekend before last from one side of the car park to the other (..in the apartment block complex), primarily because the studio apartment was too small for all my unsorted 'stuff' and equally because I wanted needed a designated place to work on the car..  The new residence is a one-bed apartment but with patio large enough to land the car on. . .

^ Although south facing, the first job I did was to jet-wash the patio of most of its dingy green algae.  And then with the new low entry / high lift trolley jack ..and borrowed ramps - the car is now safely elevated enough for me to slide under and investigate various issues ..essentially regarding Katie's  very poor passenger-door-gap and how much chassis / car flex might I expect when jacking the car up.? 

These questions were prompted by my acquiring the Surrey top and back-light a couple of weeks ago, and then also a Surrey lid (in steel) ..thanks to the kind generosity of RogerH of the TR forum.. whom I had the great pleasure to meet when I collected it on Thursday. .

My thinking was ; It might be OK with a fabric Surrey top and adjustable bows, but with the windscreen posts moveable and the rear wings not necessarily being symmetrical on this car, then how would a steel lid fit.?  Naturally things have to be fixed to within a few mm.. but the passenger door gap tapers from 14mm opening at the top to 3mm in its bottom rear corner.   Bottom line is that I needed to investigate what, if anything was happening with the door gap. before I struggle to fit the backlight and lid.

I slipped under the jacked up car to have a look at the chassis when I bought her  ..just two months ago now, and then again when the car was jacked up briefly while removing / refitting the gearbox / clutch.  In general it appeared to have been locally patched but in good shape.  Before I jacked the car up this time I measured the top of the door gaps, then lifted the car under the rear swing arm and measured the door gap again.  I was pleasantly surprised that there was just 1.5mm difference on one side and 2mm on the other.  A kind gent dropped me a PM to share that his car was much the same.  

Pleased that the main backbone wasn't moving too much, and now with the car on stands I investigated further. The rear chassis leg on the LHS is cracked as is the rear bridge between the two rear chassis legs, onto which the dampers are bolted.  This also supports the rear diff mounts. . . 

     

^ LHS rear chassis leg (which goes to the rear bumper bracket).  This would not be difficult to clean up re-weld and to add a doubler plate.  It has been welded before but I don't know if that was from new or a repair.  The question I must ask is ; whether there is some issue to have caused it to crack (some time ago by the looks of things) or is it just the result of fatigue over many years ?

^ photo of across the car with the arrow left indicating where the crack is on the LHS.  Immediately above this is the bridge from one side of the chassis to the other, onto which the lever-arm dampers are bolted and the rear diff mounts.  That is also cracked on both sides. . .

^ LHS -  looking into the corner of the rear chassis leg with the bridge

^ LHS looking back to the bridge with the lever-arm damper in light grey. The crack appears to go right the way across.

On the RHS its probably worse . . .

RHS bottom of the rear leg has a little rusty orange stain, so looks to be just starting to crack in the same place as has happened on the LHS rear leg.  The crack between that chassis member and the bridge is obvious.

RHS looking forward to that bridge.   Again I wonder - why has it cracked through ?

So., all in all a bit of welding needed.  Whether it is necessary / much better to replace that bridge for a box section tubular one I don't know.  I don't want to lift the body off but I can't see getting above it to weld a replacement bridge in is going to be possible even if the exhaust + lever arm dampers + diff + possibly fuel tank (for safety reasons) are removed.  

I've asked on the TR forum if someone has experience of doing this with body on.

Out of interest I eased the LHS rear chassis leg up with the jack, just by the exhaust silencer cross-box, and although the chassis leg's crack hardly opened up (perhaps just 1/2mm) the top of that side's door gap closed by 4mm.   x2 that would be nice.!   However I'm naturally concerned about twisting the chassis rear legs and rear-end of the body so the car would look even lower still on the driver's side.

Why the car has a list to the RHS is not yet apparent.  I'm sure that I've read somewhere that the swinging arm brackets are adjustable and may even be fitted upside.  Possibly this is the same at for the front suspension.  Perhaps someone might point me to the thread which reveals all.?

In the meantime these are the photos I took today of those mountings. Perhaps someone can see something amiss which would cause the car to sit lower on the RHS  . . .

^ Looking forward, so Left and Right hand side

^ Left and Right hand side of the swing arm mounts. 

Many thanks in anticipation,

Pete

 

[Bfg]

Thinking about why these cracks have occurred, and prompted by a conversation with a friend and suggestions on the TSSC forum.

I wonder if uprated lever arms have been fitted  ..good place to start perhaps is to pull one off &/or otherwise identify it.  Or possibly a prior owner had filled them with heavy oil. 

I also need to look to see if I can see any evidence of a tow bar having been fitted at some time.

Looking through my photos again.. it appears as if the rear of the car has been jacked up under the tubular cross beam, under the spare wheel well. 

^  From photos I've seen of other chassis, I think this round tube would have been straight but for a local dip under the middle of the spare wheel well (light blue dotted line) and that has been push up to where it now is (solid darker blue line).   Such loading would lift the rear legs and in turn put those bottom plate welds in tension, which have then failed (red arrows to the left and right). 

This may account for the cracks in the bottom plate of those rear chassis legs but perhaps not of those in the cross bridge.  Although..., and I'm just thinking out loud as I type.. with the rear legs cracked - the tail of the car might be bouncing up and down with every road bump ..and the focus of that flexing (the cracked chassis legs) just happens to be where the bridge is welded on. So the flexing of the back of the car might have been transferred to and perhaps limited by those thin flange plates of the rear damper mount bridge, which in turn have failed. 

"fatigue over a long period" as a result of the chassis legs having been broken ..by lifting the car by its rear legs rather than under the suspension arms.

Things may be beginning to make sense

re. Welding.  I'm not yet sorted.  I was given the number of a Mr Barry Atkins who is (or was, as he may have retired now) a mobile welder in this area, but I tried yesterday to call but it seems as if that number cannot now be connected.  Local VW specialists was likely to be my next call, but I'd welcome suggestions.

Thanks, Pete.

[JimH]

I do not believe that it would be possible to repair those failures properly with the body in place. If you aren't going to be working it hard then I am quite sure that someone could do a job that would get it through an MOT but I cannot see any way of effecting the repairs properly lying on your back MIG torch in hand. It looks like a fair few temporary repairs have already been made so perhaps it is time to bite the bullet and do the job right.

I see that it is possible to buy a new one from as little* as eight large. That might be worth considering. Ha ha ha.

I don't think any of the repairs are going to be difficult to carry out properly but you are going to have to remove the body first. It's going to hurt but at the end of it you would have something that was very much more right. It would also give you the opportunity (always look on the bright side) to replace annoying things like brake pipes at the same time. One thing you might want to consider is finding another frame and sorting that first before swapping things over.

 

[Bfg]

Work In progress. .

^ as was, albeit cleaned up quite a bit of rusty water stains and I had also replaced the fan for that off a TR6.  The card radiator ducting's back edge was falling apart and unfastened / just dangling a third of the way down the radiator ..so its uneven edge was poking into and chafing against the radiator core.  Subsequently, it was a sod to get out ..because the radiator's bottom hose connection and drain tap wouldn't lift out passed the fan.  And then also because the screws holding the ducting across the front were cross-head set-screws without the room to get a screwdriver in below the bonnet ..and with no access to get a spanner onto the loose-turning nuts they screwed into.  Even when unfastened it didn't want to come out of the gap between the radiator and inner wheel-arch ..not helped by the wires being taped to the grille stays.  In the end though it did succumb to my efforts. although then ..as a frisby, it likewise failed miserably to fly far down the garden !

^ the radiator was removed for easier access to replace ; the engine mounts + the steering rack brackets + the water pipes + fan belt +radiator mounting rubbers.  I also removed the fan to check the fan-extension's bolt was tight (my torque wrench only goes up to 110ft-lb ..and as it happens it was tight, but I think still worth checking).  With the radiator & ducting out of the way, the car's was previously painted colour (more crimson) was apparent.   Above shows after I cleaned out more of the rusty radiator water stains.  

^ tidying up is always encouraging.   At a later date I'll also clean, check connections and re-route the wiring. 

^ reassembly in progress..  I'm getting the car back together for now, as I clearly have more major issues to focus on.

Pete.

[Bfg]

The radiator is sprouting cardboard wings ! ?   ..but not of the duck / duct variety

^ close enough for the car industry ?

 

^ The theory is that ; at higher speeds, the angle of a conic shape of radiator ducting results in back pressure, which lessens the amount of air coming in through the front grille.  Whereas the very much larger volume behind the grille allows the air in which then tends to swirl around and back towards the radiator. 

Don't know if in fact it makes much difference at all.  Personally I disliked the original cardboard ducting, or its fit,  or its chafing away at the radiator core,  and I disliked even more trying to get the ducting out so that the radiator might then be carefully removed.  The side baffles I've made ought to be much easier in that respect and I think, once finished with a splash of colour (or black) and edge trimming.. will look neater too. 

^ I know.,  blow the expense ..1/8" plywood  (..yeah Ok.,  I reclaimed from the skip) 

^ I'm pleased with how it shaped up OK with just a few hours 'work'.   I'll find some edge trim for around the grille aperture and, very likely, I'll cut a hole in the RHS panel to duct fresh air to the carburettors.

Across the top / under the bonnet I'm leaving a gap to allow fresh air flow to spill over the top of the dam. The tendency then will be for that air to pass by the engine as it exits under the car. 

Pete 

[Mrs6C]

I love how you are working your way through this and making the modifications to improve on the things that you find. As all cars are built to a price, there are probably lots of ways to improve it that engineers and designers would have love to have done at the time, which the bean counters wouldn't approve...

[Bfg]

 

15 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

I love how you are working your way through this and making the modifications to improve on the things that you find. As all cars are built to a price, there are probably lots of ways to improve it that engineers and designers would have love to have done at the time, which the bean counters wouldn't approve...

They clearly didn't have a skip to dive into for a bit of plywood  

[RayMK]

Your ducting modification should work just fine and will look neat.  The spilllover will keep engine bay temperature down, often an advantage with carb aspirated engines now having to cope with modern fuels and thus more susceptable to vaporisation in the supply lines, although this can be overcome with an electric pump pushing the fuel to the engine from somewhere cooler, rather than an engine mounted pump sucking and exacerbating the problem. I should really have read and remembered what your fuel supply set-up is - my comments could be irrelevant!  With regard to the 'conical' original layout of ducting, perhaps the purpose was to create a two dimensional venturi to increase the air velocity though the radiator resulting from the reducing pressure as the venturi narrows.  

You are steadily improving the car with your methodical approach. Keep it drivable for the summer in case lockdown No.3 becomes necessary.  Nice work, as always.

[Russ_T]

Excellent to see your  progress Pete. Much as I'm sure some jobs can be tiresome this problem solving is right up your street. Glad you've gotten some space outside as well, much easier. 

I've been doing small jobs on my / your old Katie, I'll drop you a mail soon as the baby settles long enough to do so. 

Keep us updated. Cheers 

[Bfg]

I deliberately bought a chassis car with bolt on panels because the ease of access and therefore the cost of any major repair is often less than that of a monocoque, especially those which have inner and outer skins to everything.    Still the opportunity to strip things out, and even to replace a major structural item is no passing matter. And so following my post of the 6th May < here > where I reported on the cracks in my TR's chassis, and my subsequently trying to assess how flexible the rear end of the chassis / body assembly was.. this past couple of weeks, I've been struggling with the logistics of repairing of my chassis and then the  potential cost of finding a replacement and swapping it out.  On the TR and Triumph Sports Six Club forums I posted the following.  However I'm posting it here because so of the cars we've been considering as Autoshite are clearly having bundles of time and money spent on them. The excellent thread on the Granada Coupe, as well as Six Cylinders Motoring Notes are but a couple of examples, so I ask . . . 

How much value does one pour into a classic car (or Autoshite) before it becomes too valuable to enjoy as a daily driver ?

 

Perhaps it all comes down to how "cherished" you feel a particular car is (after all many of the once common saloons are now becoming very few and far between, as indeed are the necessary parts for their repair).  Of course it is often a matter of how much money you have,  ie., whether you can easily afford a particular car. ?

When (perhaps 8 years ago now) I had a ’66 Jaguar saloon, I met the owner of a very similar car at one of the local classic car events.  Restored to concourse and beautifully finished with a new interior, fresh chrome and in light blue metallic paint - he had just spent £42,000 on his car.  In conversation, he also admitted he’d lost the enjoyment of owning and driving such a car because of fear of stone chips, minor dings and scratches (which can happen even when driving down country lanes or when going to the supermarket), envy vandalism, and/or simply leaving the car out in the weather.  He’d created a show car, when he actually wanted a nice driver.

I'm sorta facing that conundrum right now. Having bought the best I could afford, and wanting a car to enjoy driving rather than a project to rebuild, I hadn't expected to break down on the way home (dual-carriageway driving) due to overheating, nor have to the steering wheel shake out of my hands at 60mph, nor to immediately replace the clutch. And now I'm unexpectedly faced with the highly disagreeable prospect of replacing my TR4A's chassis (..rather than patching new repairs over old ones). 

I'm lucky insomuch as I have found what appears to be a good condition / yet original TR4A chassis for sale.  This has been sandblasted & primed, and has also had the usual mods (extra stiffening in places which have proven to fail over the years).  The deal I'm faced with, is actually priced fairly, and it is from Jaguar / Triumph specialist I bought my 'spare engine' off (when I was still expecting to buy a car from the US).  I've spoken to him (Mark) and asked how much he'd charge to exchange the chassis for me.?  The cost, of having a professional Triumph outfit do it and to check everything else while the car is stripped out, is actually not too bad. Not cheeeeap, but then what professional service is !   I've been advised by TR owning friends that the quote given is 'a good deal'.  Of course, there will be additional costs involved ..according to what is perished, fails to undo, or is best replaced while the body is lifted. 

However, to me that all adds up to a huge sum of money, which if followed through - would takes the cost of my car into a different bracket.  I wanted a tidy high-spec (overdrive + stainless exhaust + comfortable seats + surrey top) driver's car rather than a show queen ..and having a lot of money tied up in a car is alien to me. 

This isn’t intended to be a ‘woe is me ’ post ..but more of a generic / philosophical question of how to deal with mindset of value and the fear of damage to an expensive or otherwise cherished car.  I was simply wondering what your own thoughts were when faced with such a dilemma ?

- - -

Is it a matter of perspective ?

I'm an old fart, pushed into early retirement by redundancy. Accordingly, because I have not worked in industry for a number of years now my values must be out of sync with those of 'normal' folk who go to work (covid permitting).  Because of this - I thought it worth my looking at how out of date my values were.?   I've starting with looking at the cost of almost-new cars, because if my Triumph had a good chassis and was otherwise brought up to reliable / comfortable touring spec then surely that's close to what I'll have.?  albeit not with the build quality of today's cars.   

For the sake of budget-market open-top 2-seater sports-car comparison, with a Triumph TR4A today ; the Mazda MX-5 SE-L (that is base model so without leather, model packages, 17" wheels, etc) but with £1500 of options including lowered suspension + sports exhaust + car cover) MSRP costs £26,441.25. < Mazda >.

I'm also looking at how values have changed < here >, so for example in 1967 when my car was first registered the average annual wage in East Anglia was £829.  And that happens to be very close to what my car's retail price was at that time.  In 2016 (the latest date this particular website gives figures for) the average wage in East Anglia was £27,456.  Coincidentally perhaps, it would cost a very similar amount of money to buy a fully restored (as new ?) TR4A today. 

And I read on < motortrader.com -april-2021 >  the average price of a used car in April ‘21 was £14,124.   My daily driver ; a 2002 Chrysler Grand Voyager I bought last October cost me £550  ..so yeah, I guess I am a little out of sync with today’s prices. !

 

It's an interesting, albeit possibly psycho-analytical question.   

From a philosophical perspective, together with seeing the TR as a primary-hobby, helps me balance things a little more.  My old school buddy Chris bought a bicycle for £4000 which was more than I might possibly have comprehended, but still I accept that his social life revolves around his mates and their cycling club. And as that helps him through the everyday trudge of working life ..then good luck to him.

And then of course I'm best to amortize the cost over hoped-for years of enjoyable driving and ownership of an attractive and very capable classic Triumph.

Do these sorts of value comparison make sense ? if not how do you figure such things out. ?

AndyTV8 on one forum said ; "perfection is the enemy of the good’, often people can get blindsided by mission-creep, sometimes doing just-enough is good enough".  Very true.., and always difficult to balance 'good enough' with its potential to fail again ..and then still need doing properly.

conversely others might say "whatever is rightly done, no matter how humble, is noble" Henry Royce.

Others still ;  "Whatever you do you must be happy in yourself with the end product.   'Good enough' is not always good enough.

Just where does one draw the line ?

- - -

This past week I did decide to buy that TR4A chassis from M&T Classics, Wolverhampton, and to have them do the swap.  My aches n' old age,  having no garage or equipment things like an engine hoist, working outside, no space to put all the bits taken off, and the usual reality of not having a vital part to get on with the job, all contributed to the decision.  Still the bill is going to be a bitter-pill to swallow. 

More on that (imminent) plan to follow.

Pete.

[Bfg]

Update :

Last Wednesday (26th May)  I took TR Katie  across to M&T Classics, Wolverhampton, to leave the car there for a chassis swap.  Sorry no piccies, but with a friend accompanying me in a modern (..just in case), the TR had no issues en-route, save a little oil weep seemingly burning on the exhaust and our GPS navigating us through a housing estate until we came to a dead-end.  Considering the cooling, clutch and other issues already experienced, and that I've only driven the car during its collection and then once for a 80 miles Sunday afternoon jaunt through quiet country lanes (that is aside from mostly back n' forth to the dust bowl / storage container).. undertaking such a journey, with a car partly dismantled, with a cracked chassis and other iffy states of affair was not taken lightly.  Safety was not a concern but for the prospect of breaking down on a motorway, so I did specifically take out national breakdown cover. !  

From here M & T are 170 miles up n' across the A14, and then across n' up the M6 to junction 10.  The TR's wire wheels are out of true or out of balance, or both, and so I needed to hold the steering wheel, with both hands all the way, to prevent it shaking too much.  As always I drove with the top down, and so was very glad to have no more than a few spits of rain the whole way.  Unfortunately there was a headwind against us all ..and so wind buffeting and wind noise were., less than relaxing.  However the thing I'd forgotten about driving a sports car (..it's been many years since) and especially an open top - is that other vehicle's tyres are up there with the top of the side-window glass.  That's quite intimidating and, from six foot away, flipping noisy.  Never-the-less the trip was an uneventful Success.   

Aside from doing the chassis swap and to hopefully sort out some body tub structural issues and the odd panel fit, I'm also asking Mark's team to do some chassis mods for me. This is because I feel the back end of the chassis is weak and vulnerable to fatigue, and because I want to tow a small camping trailer with the car.  In exchange for the labour of they doing those mods., I agreed to remove all carpets, the trim panels (inc those on the doors), the passenger seat, and dashboard support (H-frame) and the gearbox tunnel (to be fitted with just a few fastenings for the trip). The radiator ducting was removed, and I was also asked to remove all of the body-mounting bolts into the chassis, and to refit them with Coppaslip.  Likewise with all the wing fastenings. The bumpers and their irons were removed all together. 

With having to finish my task of replacing all the coolant hoses.., this dismantling, their rusty bolts and wrong fastenings (..I hate cross head screws in awkward places !) accounted for a week of my time ..inbetween rain showers.  Equally though it would save M & T hours in preparation for lifting the body off and to protect them from any welding.  And they won't have the labour in refitting everything again.

Of course, with no sound deadening inside the car, trim panels off and some of the stays and body mounts (bumper irons for example help clamp the wings in place) just added to noise levels and the number of shakes n' rattles .. all together rather reminiscent of a farmer's old trailer bouncing down a dirt track.

Still the jobs were done to my deadline and the car was delivered as pre-arranged. 

For those who might be interested here are a few illustrations to explain what chassis mods I'm asking for (these being on top of the 'usual' stiffening mods carried out on these chassis such as boxing in open channels of the diff mounts and doubling up on the the front suspension's wishbone brackets) . . .

   

^  07 refers to a flat plate welded inbetween the flanges of the chassis rear legs.  The one shown was done by Malcolm in Australia, following the theory that this plate on edge is difficult to bend (in the vertical plane).  He used 9mm thick plate, and did this with body on from under the car.  Whereas I'm asking for 5 or 6mm plate ..but for that to be extended right the way to the back, so that I have something secure to bolt a towing hitch onto. 

^ Red numbers refer to various more-major mods (addendum to the standard TR4A chassis), whereas the yellow arrows indicate additional gusset plates.  Perhaps you can visualise the load paths I'm attempting to smooth-out diagonally across the car (01, 02, & 08), and then how the rear diff mounts being tied together at their tops (05 & 06) and gusseted at the bottom help create a longitudinal support bridge forward to the main chassis rails.  The TR6 body also mounts to the chassis via brackets (04). These were not fitted to the TR4A chassis but I feel are useful to link the body structure together with the chassis.  It looks a lot of work, but when the body is off it's not such a big job.  IMO the chassis design is a sad compromise without them, with one side of the car barely attached to the other.

Below  shows the standard chassis - which clearly illustrates that one side of the chassis is barely (structurally) joined to the other side anywhere between the front chassis cross-member (forward of the engine's sump) and the 1.25mm pressed metal plate just forward of the diff  ..that's half the length of the car.!  

Rear of that thin plate, the chassis legs splay out and mostly rely on open channel section bridges to join one side of the car to the other.  Bolted onto these bridges are not only the differential, with its torsional loading from the drive, but also the suspension springs and dampers.  The torsional load, just from the diff, is enough to tear the metal around its mounting studs (a very common failure).., so imagine if you might the chassis twist induced by one wheel going over a bump and the kinetic force through that suspension spring and damper.  There's little wonder that the early / sidescreen TR's and TR4 are preferred for race and rallying. Their chassis is clearly a more coherent design.

 ^ shown in green ; proposed 5 or 6mm thick jacking plates to be added, just where the car is usually lifted on a two poster or trolley jack.  I'll paint these to highlight them to garage mechanics and tyre fitters.!

It will be interesting !!! 

May the early summer sunshine fill your car with pleasant warmth and light.

Pete.    

[Bfg]

poor poor Katie.. looking so forlorn

^ in the progress of stripping down, from Saturday.  

Story so far is that ; the inner panels, A and B-posts are in pretty good shape..  no unexpected horrors.  There's fraying to the rear wing bottom corner flanges, but nothing that will stop the world from spinning.  Driver's side sill is good but needs a few spot welds, which I knew about.  And the LHS foot-well side panel is detached from the sill. Again I knew about this.  

Detached with no upturn flange. although there do appear to be rivets or perhaps lug welds visible under the underseal.  The sill being foam filled doesn't help, nor does the vent's plenum drainage into this area. 

    

The sill's ends are also rusted on this side so the prospect is to replace this sill.  Driver side sill is in much better shape.

So far then, nothing devastating for a 54 year old car which was amateur restored 22 years ago.

Pete.

[Bfg]

Further updates from M&T Classics, Wolverhampton. . .

Sent to me on Saturday, which was followed up by a very positive phone conversation to say what he'd seen and reflections on the general condition

. . .  Body off

^ chassis and mechanicals now accessible for inspection and further dismantling

^ This is the area of rear outrigger / diff & damper mounting bridge, I clean off from underneath, which more clearly shows the cracks I could see.  There may be something obscure about my spraying zinc/cold galvanising paint on this, but even for a short while I couldn't leave bare metal showing.

^ Body mounting washers &/or rubbers were missing and the body tub was chafing against the chassis in several places. Most would have just caused annoying rattles and squeaks, but this is the rear suspension spring turret.  In the bottom-right of the photo you can see a groove worn mostly through that spring cup by the rear inner-wing's flange.  Before very long that spring-cup would have cracked through. 

^ This is one of the differential's mounting studs pulling out of the bridge (which also serves as the rear suspension spring turret).   I had seen this from under the car but, with restricted access, all I could see was weld splatter over weld splatter ..which I just knew would not have penetrated the metal to hold the pin secure.   My Tr4 engine has just 105bhp and 128 ft.lb of torque (on a good day) ..which is considerably less than a tuned Tr5 or Tr6, but still.. just the torque through the drive-train, pulling and twisting at these pins, cause their mountings to crack and rip out (.. so common on each IRS TR model - that it is a usual place to reinforce).

The cracks around the chassis rear legs were imo repairable in-situ with the body on, particularly if i replaced that bridge, but it was seeing this attempt at welding from the underside of the car which led to the decision to have the body lifted off and to do the job properly.  

^ Outriggers and rear-end-of-the sill body mounts in surprisingly excellent condition and the suspension was (subsequent to the original restoration) fitted with poly-bushes.   Body to chassis contact is evident in various places ...more clanking / vibration noises !   And unfortunately, the trailing arm poly-bushes were assembled dry (no silicon grease ?) and their bolts without Coppaslip ..so are seized.  Together these may account for the distinctive creaking noises from the car's suspension.   The bolts will have to be cut out and the poly-bushes replaced.  more cost !

 

   

^ the gearbox is out to reveal the new clutch I'd fitted.  The gearbox has been dropped off to the same gearbox specialist (Classic Transmissions if I recall)  who rebuild my old Jaguar gearbox some years back.  A very nice gentleman / old-boy will do a quick rebuild for us, as I'm aware of noises which point to the lay-shaft bearings being on their way out.  It's opportune to do this now, while the engine is out rather than to go through the hassles and to pay the labour cost later.  Hopefully by catching it early, it will have avoided damage to the gears themselves.  Mark is being very helpful and aware of my financial limitations, and is not charging to deliver the gearbox to the specialist (..on his way home).  It was booked in advance and because M&T use the same gentleman all the time, the task ought to fit-in with our chassis-swap schedule. 

The front half of the chassis is again in good shape but the (again usual) reinforcements to the suspension mounts hadn't been done.  They have, of course, been done on the replacement chassis. 

^ the diff., Mark says appears to have been rebuilt not long ago. I would like to know what ratio it is as I prefer taller overall gearing for touring. Its front seal is weeping, so he'll swap that out.  Likewise half-shafts, their UJ's and gaiters all appear to be in good order, as is the prop-shaft.  While dismantled, Mark will be swapping-out each suspension spring, so the car will then sit level.  He's advised that one packer was in the rear springs was missing on side.  With new poly-bushes for the diff mounts these components ought all be good to go.

All in all then, steady progress and a positive report. 

Pete.

[Bfg]

On 6/1/2021 at 3:23 PM, Bfg said:

Update :

For those who might be interested here are a few illustrations to explain what chassis mods I'm asking for (these being on top of the 'usual' stiffening mods carried out on these chassis such as boxing in open channels of the diff mounts and doubling up on the the front suspension's wishbone brackets) . . .

   

^  07 refers to a flat plate welded inbetween the flanges of the chassis rear legs.  The one shown was done by Malcolm in Australia, following the theory that this plate on edge is difficult to bend (in the vertical plane).  He used 9mm thick plate, and did this with body on from under the car.  Whereas I'm asking for 5 or 6mm plate ..but for that to be extended right the way to the back, so that I have something secure to bolt a towing hitch onto. 

^ Red numbers refer to various more-major mods (addendum to the standard TR4A chassis), whereas the yellow arrows indicate additional gusset plates.  Perhaps you can visualise the load paths I'm attempting to smooth-out diagonally across the car (01, 02, & 08), and then how the rear diff mounts being tied together at their tops (05 & 06) and gusseted at the bottom help create a longitudinal support bridge forward to the main chassis rails.  The TR6 body also mounts to the chassis via brackets (04). These were not fitted to the TR4A chassis but I feel are useful to link the body structure together with the chassis.  It looks a lot of work, but when the body is off it's not such a big job.  IMO the chassis design is a sad compromise without them, with one side of the car barely attached to the other.

Below  shows the standard chassis - which as you can see is not otherwise (structurally) joined between the front chassis cross-member and the 1.25mm thin pressed plate just forward of the diff  ..that's half the length of the car.!   And after that the chassis legs splay out and mostly rely on open channel-section bridges to join one side of the car to the other.  Bolted onto these bridges are not only the differential, with its torsional loading from the drive, but also the suspension springs and dampers.  The torsional load, just from the diff, is enough to tear the metal around its mounting studs (a very common failure).., so imagine if you might the chassis twist induced by one wheel going over a bump and the kinetic force through that suspension spring and damper.  There's little wonder that the early / sidescreen TR's and TR4 are preferred for race and rallying. Their chassis is clearly a more coherent design.

 ^ shown in green ; proposed 5 or 6mm thick jacking plates to be added, just where the car is usually lifted on a two poster or trolley jack.  I'll paint these to highlight them to garage mechanics and tyre fitters.!

It will be interesting !!! 

May the early summer sunshine fill your car with pleasant warmth and light.

Pete.    

What's presently happening ? . . .

^ viewed with the chassis inverted, showing the proposed modifications being tacked into place, and photos sent for my approval (or otherwise ) before they are welded in.

Those shown here are 1. the extended T-shirt ; to further attach one side main chassis rail to the other,  2. diagonal members ; to help prevent the trailing arm outrigger from twisting (which in turn stresses and accelerates corrosion in its end joints), 3. cross beams ; to halve span-lengths and better support the outrigger and sill body mounts. 

Fabricated from the same rail section as the main chassis rail, the extra 4ft or so of steel adds very little weight, but so configured adds an huge amount of rigidity.

^ In conjunction with those, on top of the main chassis rails, I'm having the t-shirt plate extended, so the two central / main chassis rails have a base and lid plate to box them structurally together.  The prop-shaft is above these top plates and so it is just the exhaust pipe, fuel and brake pipes which run through that tunnel.  Again this boxing in adds very little weight, but will tie one side of the car really well.  Albeit very ight-weight, railway-bridge spans come to mind. 

^ Unlike the Tr6, the Tr4A has steel bridge piece, which also serves as the tail-end of the prop-shaft tunnel. This is positioned just forward of the forward diff-mount bridge / suspension spring-turret but was not originally attached to it.  I'm having a short folded plate welded inbetween those, so they are joined together at their top, and then two further folded plates to tie the forward & rear diff bridges together (NB. remember to check the diff fits on the pins before final welding !). 

Aside from the usual reinforcements around the diff mounting pins, the two diff bridges and their legs are being plated in on their underside. As you can see (bottom of photo, in black) the corner of the rear bridge is also gusseted to rear chassis legs.  This adds bracing in way of the lever arm dampers.. and together with the 4A's steel prop-shaft tunnel these plates provide a load path (with depth) from the main chassis rails over the diff mounts and then back down to each chassis rear leg, not only longitudinally but also torsionally. 

^ across the front beam, where trolley jack are usually placed to lift the front of the car has additional plating 4mm thick.  These on my own car was dented in from where jacks have been used without the protection of a wooden beam.  This chassis wasn't so dented and scarred but I'd like to prevent further damage.

There are other mods happening, but the corner gussets and jacking plates M&T tacked-in-place were both too small and too thin for what I wanted.  I've rejected those for similar but more substantial.  Mark is being very understanding, and when we last spoke was enjoying showing another customer my old chassis's cracks and how the car was driven in. 

I might only guess he thinks I'm a bit paranoid, but he's such a pleasant chap that he's happy to oblige my requests for these mods. 

Pete.

[Bfg]

 

I've just received an update from Mark at M&T Classics, who are doing my chassis mods.  

WARNING : If you're an ardent "originality" enthusiast or otherwise suffer from welding envy - you might want to look away.. 

    

^ checking the positions of the diff mounting studs before welding in both ends of the top braces.  Closing in of those webs yet to be done. 

    

^ Bracing the diff bridges together.    Additional gussets. ^^   

    

    

^ addition cross bracing support and diagonals, extended T-shirt plate and outside corner gusset / jacking plate.

 

    

^  Talking of jacking plates.

And then Malcolm's vertical web stiffening of the rear chassis legs . . .

    

^ starting inside the main chassis rails up, by the gearbox mount, and running right the way to the back (passed the cross tube of the silencer mount) to 40mm from the end. 

The cut short bottom of the 4A transmission tunnel bridge and diff mounting bridge will be reinstated and the webs of the diff mounting bridge will then be closed in. The front diff mounting bridge have also been closed in.

^ Top T-shirt plate (presently not fitted) will be assessed with respect to running fuel n' brake pipes, and the exhaust within the tunnel, before it is finally shaped and fitted.

And aside from the temporary WW1 camouflage., I don't think what I've asked for looks at all outrageous. 

What else can I say ?  ..but that I'm well impressed with both M&T's friendly service and their craftsmanship.

Pete.

 

[dean36014]

Some nice work being done there.

[DeeJay]

It's good to see that you are getting what you are paying for and not a bodge up. 

[Dick Longbridge]

Immaculate fab and welding work! Great to see the modifications being done to make the chassis less floppy too.I can't see those mods will devalue the car in any way, not that it's about that. It must be really reassuring to see the rest of the car is still pretty solid, despite the resto being a number of years ago. 

[Bfg]

Thanks Gents, yes I'm delighted to get what I want..  and I think the quality of welding is really excellent. 

I'm certain the car will drive all the better for not twisting so much.  I don't know why but some amount of chassis-flex seems work well with leaf-spring / live axle cars ..but is not so good with IRS suspension. 

One sill will be replaced (..more because the previous restoration got it wrong) but aside from that I feel the car's body is in really great shape for an original UK / RHD, 54 year old car.   The sill will be painted but I'm desperately trying to avoid getting into the crippling cost of a repaint.

Pete

[Bfg]

Quick pictorial update from Mark today ; 

   

             

^ Parts solvent cleaned and jet washed. New nylocks and bolts are being used where Mark thinks best.  You and I might have cleaned the old ones up on a wire-wheel but replacing them is probably better value with a commercial operation. 

    

^ The bottom T-shirt being drilled, to help avoid a big puddle of water sitting in there, now that those plates have end upturns on them.

   

^ Like the 4A's tunnel-bridge, the bottoms of the rear diff support bridge were temporarily cut short ..so the 5.3mm thick vertical web plate used could pass uninterrupted along the rear chassis legs.  Those pieces have now been reinstated and the bottom flanges of the diff bridge have been closed in as box section.  I specifically asked for it to wrapped under the chassis rail, which M&T have kindly done for me. They have of course been drilled for drainage through their bottom corner.  The closed in box section rear diff-bridge together with a final corner gusset.

^ M&T skilled craftsman at work.  He's adding TR6 type body mounts onto the diff bridge / rear suspension's spring turret. I wanted these because I had ideas of fit a roll-over bar, and if so - then I very much prefer to tie that bar into the chassis. There's not much opportunity to do that with the standard TR4A chassis, which doesn't have these brackets.

   

^ aside from the top T-shirt the welding is now all done. The bare metal primed and the edges seam sealed.  I'm very pleased with their work. 

^ I supplied the paint and agreed a price with Mark to roll it on. I might add that their preferred way would be to spend more time prepping the chassis for paint and then spray applying two-pack for a very durable show-car finish.   Alas, I have to be very watchful of the final cost and for a road car., I'm very happy with a hand painted / rolled finish.  I asked for this paint to be applied as thin as practical, and despite doing so - he's done a great job in achieving an even covering. Credit to Mark., it's neater than I might have hoped for.  Hopefully the cooler temperatures after last night's rain helped with the working times.  

Oh yes, I am aware that semi-satin black is standard Triumph, but I wanted silver because my tired old eyes can then better see if anything is amiss ..fastenings working loose, reoccurrence of rust, &/or oil leaks, etc.  Boat and caravan / trailer chassis are very often bright galvanised or silver painted ..but car manufacturer usually prefer not to highlight the fact that their cars leaked as 'original' direct from the factory.  Any who frown might like to reflect on Triumph's works race TR4 chassis, which was I believe painted brilliant white, as indeed it seems TR Enterprises TR4 FIA Race car was < here >. 

Once the paint on this side of the chassis has gone hard, then the chassis will of course be flipped for the top faces likewise painted.  Thereafter mechanical reassembly commences.   

I'm well pleased,

Pete.

 

[Bfg]

Latest update  from Mark this afternoon showing the chassis upturned and painted, the threaded holes tapped clean and the new body mounting kit laid out. 

Looking really good . . .

Pete

[Bfg]

Thanks all..  even just clicks on the 'Like' button tells me you're not too bored with my posting about this car.

In case anyone's wondering, I stuck with POR-15 ..which I've been happy with in the past, and as applied to the foot well of this car.  Although that paint in the footwell suffered from silicon contamination, it otherwise applied very well over bare metal, over old paint and also the primer already in the car. Seems like POR-15 is a Marmite-like product. 

Katie, as bought, shook through her steering above 55mph.  My friend Rich who gave me a lift to collect the car was surprised when I joined the A14 dual-carriageway that I slowed down to let a lorry pass.  That's because I was concerned a wheel was falling off !   I stopped and checked that was not the case and thereafter assumed the wire wheels were way out of balance. This supposition being reinforced by the lack of balancing weights on the rims.  I suspect this was because there were rubber white-wall-tyre embellishers sandwiched between the rim & the tyre and so clip-on balance weights couldn't be fitted.  

I subsequently removed the white-wall embellishment, and also checked and coppaslipped each wheel's fitting on its hub.  Because three of the five (inc the spare wheel) had 27 year old tyres fitted, and because I want pressed steel wheels - I wasn't going to spend money on having those balanced.  I did try swapping the wheels on their axles, front to back, and that very slightly lessened the shake through the steering wheel but still they shaked n' rattled the whole car ..and me, all the way to Wolverhampton.  

The TR4 / 4A wire wheels are 4-1/2J but standard TR2 - 4A pressed-steel wheels were 4J.   I bought a set of four pressed-steel-wheels, believing they were 4 1/2J's off a TR250 / TR5, but wherever that thought came from ..I was mistaken - I had bought a set of 4J's.  I emphasis that this was not the seller's fault, it was my own. oops .  I only discovered it - after I had removed their old tyres. 

 

In the meantime., M&T Classics had, as I asked, swapped out the cut-short wheel-studs in my car's hubs for standard length studs. 

^ Standard studs are too long for wire wheels, because the wire-wheel's inner hub are held away from sitting down onto the male-conical splined adapter. For the wheel to rest on the end of too long studs would be very dangerous.  The studs on Katie  had been cut short, several of them by too much ..Also not good.

I'd heard that wheel spacers can be used inbetween the half-shaft hub and the wire-wheel adapters. Mark very kindly tried this for me . . .

^ Things loosely assembled with a 6mm (1/4") spacer.  If the wire wheel's inner hub now clears those studs - then using the wire wheels is fine and will be safe.  Handy to get us back from Wolverhampton. 

However, as my preference is for pressed steel wheels, that would be a temporary fix.  Although my wire-wheels appear to be in good order - it didn't make sense to have new tyres fitted to them (and to have those balanced) where I'll be changing them. 

While weighing up my options, of the wires with spacers or the (..not 4-1/2J / TR5 ) wheels I'd mistakenly bought ..and having those blasted and painted - I spotted that Jim Lowry had a set of pressed steel wheels for a TR4.  Although also 4j x 15., they appeared to be straight and cosmetically 'tidy'.  Jim's price was very fair, with their cost (for the set of five) being much the same as I could have a set of wheels blasted and painted for.

Yesterday I drove down to Chelmsford to buy and collect them. Their condition is fine for my purpose of having a nice driver rather than show car. . .

^ the four wheels appear to have been painted and clear lacquered, and were clearly very nice when fitted, but have minor blemishes from balance weights having been clipped onto / removed from the rims.  I'll touch-in those places, as much as anything to hopefully prevent their chipped clear lacquer from flaking. The fifth wheel is likewise in silver but hadn't been clear lacquered. It's suffering from a few scrapes and some surface rust particularly on its inside ..perhaps cosmetic damage from tools rattling around in it, in the boot.  Again I'll tidy that up before having its tyre fitted. 

I'd bought three new tyres, as I hoped to re-use two off the wire wheels, but that's not convenient now the car's up in Wolverhampton.  Today I've ordered two more, so by the end of this week I hope to have a full set of round and balanced  wheels to replace the wires.

As an aside, Jim very kindly showed me some of his own cars .. and we had a great time chatting about each (..for 2-1/2 hours !).  Some of his car sales have been questioned / criticized by contributors of the TR forum, but he is in fact a really nice chap and comes across as being very conscientious in retaining, as far as possible, each car's original parts, their history (..whatever that may be) and patina.  The cars I saw (He's presently using a TR2, which I didn't see, but he otherwise showed me late 1950, early 60's MG's including a twin-cam MGA presently being worked on, and a Lotus Elite) each appear to have been rebuilt ..with an historic FIA scrutineer's eye to putting things back together properly / sorted ..rather than to glitzy or showroom standards.  In short, they seemed to be excellent cars to use and enjoy - as they had been designed to be used.  It was great to meet him and have a really enjoyable conversation.

Cheers, Pete.

 

[Bfg]

On 6/11/2021 at 12:12 PM, Bfg said:

Further updates from M&T Classics, Wolverhampton. . .

Sent to me on Saturday, which was followed up by a very positive phone conversation to say what he'd seen and reflections on the general condition

. . .  Body off

^ chassis and mechanicals now accessible for inspection and further dismantling

^ This is the area of rear outrigger / diff & damper mounting bridge, I clean off from underneath, which more clearly shows the cracks I could see.  There may be something obscure about my spraying zinc/cold galvanising paint on this, but even for a short while I couldn't leave bare metal showing.

^ Body mounting washers &/or rubbers were missing and the body tub was chafing against the chassis in several places. Most would have just caused annoying rattles and squeaks, but this is the rear suspension spring turret.  In the bottom-right of the photo you can see a groove worn mostly through that spring cup by the rear inner-wing's flange.  Before very long that spring-cup would have cracked through. 

^ This is one of the differential's mounting studs pulling out of the bridge (which also serves as the rear suspension spring turret).   I had seen this from under the car but, with restricted access, all I could see was weld splatter over weld splatter ..which I just knew would not have penetrated the metal to hold the pin secure.   My Tr4 engine has just 105bhp and 128 ft.lb of torque (on a good day) ..which is considerably less than a tuned Tr5 or Tr6, but still.. just the torque through the drive-train, pulling and twisting at these pins, cause their mountings to crack and rip out (.. so common on each IRS TR model - that it is a usual place to reinforce).

The cracks around the chassis rear legs were imo repairable in-situ with the body on, particularly if i replaced that bridge, but it was seeing this attempt at welding from the underside of the car which led to the decision to have the body lifted off and to do the job properly.  

^ Outriggers and rear-end-of-the sill body mounts in surprisingly excellent condition and the suspension was (subsequent to the original restoration) fitted with poly-bushes.   Body to chassis contact is evident in various places ...more clanking / vibration noises !   And unfortunately, the trailing arm poly-bushes were assembled dry (no silicon grease ?) and their bolts without Coppaslip ..so are seized.  Together these may account for the distinctive creaking noises from the car's suspension.   The bolts will have to be cut out and the poly-bushes replaced.  more cost !

 

   

^ the gearbox is out to reveal the new clutch I'd fitted.  The gearbox has been dropped off to the same gearbox specialist (Classic Transmissions if I recall)  who rebuild my old Jaguar gearbox some years back.  A very nice gentleman / old-boy will do a quick rebuild for us, as I'm aware of noises which point to the lay-shaft bearings being on their way out.  It's opportune to do this now, while the engine is out rather than to go through the hassles and to pay the labour cost later.  Hopefully by catching it early, it will have avoided damage to the gears themselves.  Mark is being very helpful and aware of my financial limitations, and is not charging to deliver the gearbox to the specialist (..on his way home).  It was booked in advance and because M&T use the same gentleman all the time, the task ought to fit-in with our chassis-swap schedule. 

The front half of the chassis is again in good shape but the (again usual) reinforcements to the suspension mounts hadn't been done.  They have, of course, been done on the replacement chassis. 

All in all then, steady progress and a positive report. 

Pete.

OK., NOW SOLD     FOR SALE - TR4A chassis  (easily modified to TR5 or TR6 spec).     Just a thought ..and I have OK'ed it with Mark before I suggested this..  it is available for collection from Wolverhampton, or in a few weeks time from Ipswich, Suffolk  

I don't wish to discuss prices on an open forum,  but as a starting point the chassis replacement I've just bought cost me £2,550 and that had also been welded (those being aside from the modifications I subsequently asked for).  A new replacement chassis from CTM is I believe in the region of £6,700 + collection costs, with present delivery being ; six months to one year.  

Emotion of the moment of discovery aside., an impartial look at these photos would suggest that my car's chassis condition is generally very good.  However, its damage would have been difficult to repair properly from underneath with the body on, as indeed it would have been nigh-on-impossible to do the stiffening-mods I specifically asked for.  Having seen numerous other blogs of TR4A - TR6 chassis ..in far worse condition, being successfully repaired.., if I had the space to do so, then I would have lifted the body off my car, repaired the chassis and refitted it.

And had I taken on a project TR, as I had originally hoped to do, then again my intent was to first restore 'a spare' chassis and then to transfer assemblies across, one at a time as they were reconditioned.  Much easier IMO than taking everything off and then being confronted with a huge mixed-up jigsaw puzzle of loose parts.  I've been there done that with motorcycles ..which take up very much less space.

Personally speaking, I would have locally cut out the old poorer-quality repairs (..which have only lasted 22 years road-use since restoration) and inset new metal. And then with shiny clean metal (clear access is the key here) and the chassis rotated to a position where welding is easy - I would have every confidence that the repaired structure would be both strong and would have been barely discernible.  Btw., I had been offered a replacement rear diff mount (after-market tubular section) and so would have fitted that. 

Mark is going to send me other photos, now that the chassis is completely stripped down, but as far as I'm aware there is no evidence of accident damage nor of any place where the chassis has rusted (not even pin-holes) through. That is unusual, even with many US cars where the T-shirt plate conceals rust and the trailing-arm outriggers need replacing.  The rear legs of this chassis may  have drooped (can't really tell because some body mounting rubbers or spacers were missing - the cause of surface chafing), but either way I honestly believe that this would have been easily corrected in the course of general repairs (dimensions in the workshop manual).

Anyway., these things are for you to determine for yourself.  I can forward Mark's photos of the chassis, as it is now, to anyone who is seriously interested in buying.

Please contact me in person via a PM. 

Cheers, Pete.

 

[Bfg]

On 6/21/2021 at 2:03 PM, Bfg said:

Thanks all..  even just clicks on the 'Like' button tells me you're not too bored with my posting about this car.

In case anyone's wondering, I stuck with POR-15 ..which I've been happy with in the past, and as applied to the foot well of this car.  Although that paint in the footwell suffered from silicon contamination, it otherwise applied very well over bare metal, over old paint and also the primer already in the car. Seems like POR-15 is a Marmite-like product. 

Katie, as bought, shook through her steering above 55mph.  My friend Rich who gave me a lift to collect the car was surprised when I joined the A14 dual-carriageway that I slowed down to let a lorry pass.  That's because I was concerned a wheel was falling off !   I stopped and checked that was not the case and thereafter assumed the wire wheels were way out of balance. This supposition being reinforced by the lack of balancing weights on the rims.  I suspect this was because there were rubber white-wall-tyre embellishers sandwiched between the rim & the tyre and so clip-on balance weights couldn't be fitted.  

I subsequently removed the white-wall embellishment, and also checked and coppaslipped each wheel's fitting on its hub.  Because three of the five (inc the spare wheel) had 27 year old tyres fitted, and because I want pressed steel wheels - I wasn't going to spend money on having those balanced.  I did try swapping the wheels on their axles, front to back, and that very slightly lessened the shake through the steering wheel but still they shaked n' rattled the whole car ..and me, all the way to Wolverhampton.  

The TR4 / 4A wire wheels are 4-1/2J but standard TR2 - 4A pressed-steel wheels were 4J.   I bought a set of four pressed-steel-wheels, believing they were 4 1/2J's off a TR250 / TR5, but wherever that thought came from ..I was mistaken - I had bought a set of 4J's.  I emphasis that this was not the seller's fault, it was my own. oops .  I only discovered it - after I had removed their old tyres. 

 

In the meantime., M&T Classics had, as I asked, swapped out the cut-short wheel-studs in my car's hubs for standard length studs. 

^ Standard studs are too long for wire wheels, because the wire-wheel's inner hub are held away from sitting down onto the male-conical splined adapter. For the wheel to rest on the end of too long studs would be very dangerous.  The studs on Katie  had been cut short, several of them by too much ..Also not good.

I'd heard that wheel spacers can be used inbetween the half-shaft hub and the wire-wheel adapters. Mark very kindly tried this for me . . .

^ Things loosely assembled with a 6mm (1/4") spacer.  If the wire wheel's inner hub now clears those studs - then using the wire wheels is fine and will be safe.  Handy to get us back from Wolverhampton. 

However, as my preference is for pressed steel wheels, that would be a temporary fix.  Although my wire-wheels appear to be in good order - it didn't make sense to have new tyres fitted to them (and to have those balanced) where I'll be changing them.

 

 

So ..,  NOW SOLD   FOR SALE - 4-1/2J x 15" painted wire wheels, x5 with Spinners, and Splined hubs for the TR 2 - 4A, and their special domed nuts, and possibly x2 good Maxxis tyres  (, dated 2013).  The three other tyres are old & worn.

 

 

As collected (in March, when the car was clean and wore the white-wall-tyre embellishers) ..available for collection from Wolverhampton, or in a few weeks time, from Ipswich, Suffolk  

I don't wish to discuss prices on an open forum,  but I'm sure anyone who has look will have a good idea of the value of a set of five, sound wire 15" wheels together with x4 the splined-hubs and spinners.  I'm not in a position to give them away but I'm open to sensible offers.

Emotion of their being out of balance when I first collected the car aside., an impartial look at this photos shows that although not concourse they are still very respectable. The spinners have been dented (hammered rather than using a block of timber to protect the ears) but still they are very serviceable. They too have been over painted with silver paint.  

I have not had the wheels balanced but as far as I'm aware there are no broken or loose spokes, dented rims, nor is there any rust.

Again., these things are for you to determine for yourself.

Please contact me in person via a PM. 

Cheers, Pete.

[Bfg]

FOR SALE - Triumph TR2 - 4A pressed-steel wheels, 4J x 15" for restoration . . .

  

On 3/5/2021 at 5:12 PM, openroad said:

Four wheels, need Blasting etc , but not curbed or bashed about. On knackered Tyres. !

Collection only please from Nottinghamshire. 

Price is £75 only.

Conrad.

These x4 wheels, now with then tyres removed, are again offered for sale  by me., Bfg, in Ipswich, Suffolk.  Same price as I paid ..£75.  There are in fact a couple of dents in the rims but I'm sure they would tap out easily enough before blasting and repaint. 

cheers,

Pete

 

[Mrs6C]

Do you want to collate these three sets of items and photos into a 'For Sale' thread? It'll be more obvious to folk on here then, that they are available.

You may be planning to advertise these in the various TR clubs' small ads already, but there is also the TSSC. You can put a Classified advert in the Courier magazine, Practical Classics and Classic Car Weekly for free if you are a member and for £10 if not. Worth a go?
https://www.tssc.org.uk/tssc/classified_ad.asp

[Bfg]

1 hour ago, Mrs6C said:

Do you want to collate these three sets of items and photos into a 'For Sale' thread? It'll be more obvious to folk on here then, that they are available.

You may be planning to advertise these in the various TR clubs' small ads already, but there is also the TSSC. You can put a Classified advert in the Courier magazine, Practical Classics and Classic Car Weekly for free if you are a member and for £10 if not. Worth a go?
https://www.tssc.org.uk/tssc/classified_ad.asp

Thanks Mrs6c, yes it's probably a good idea to copy these into the 'For Sale' thread.  I'd forgotten Autoshite  had that section. I don't know what you mean "to collate" them, but certainly it'll be worthwhile my posting them there and perhaps adding a link to this thread, so that anyone can see their context. cheers.

I've likewise posted the same on the TR and TSSC forums.  I didn't know that that adverts in Practical Classics & Classic Car weekly were free if you are a member (of the TSSC ?) ..which I am.   Either way £10 is not at all unreasonable for an ad in Practical Classics.  I don't know 'Classic Car Weekly', does that have a strong following ?

Sound reasoning to post the ads in the Courier though, I'll send them out tomorrow morning.. I guess I'll do the same with the TR club magazine as well.

If I weren't so tired I should of thought of these things myself.  So Thank You, I much appreciate your advice.

Pete 

[Bfg]

A quick update from Mark on Tuesday :

    

^ Mark advised that previously there were 'an assortment' of bolts in the assembly of suspension components, some seemingly original while other parts had metric bolts.  I gather those have been corrected and now most bolts and all nylocs are new..  M & T are very kindly fitting replacement springs front n' back ..to level the car for me.  Although they look it, the springs are not in fact new, but they are off cars which specifically sat level n' true before being stripped for parts. 

I ought to emphasis that M & T usual practice is to work to very high standards, and that includes plating, painting, or powder-coating parts before fitting. it is only because Mark is trying to work within my financial limitations that he conceded to not do so on this occasion.  I will paint those suspension and other parts when I get the car home.       

In these photos I must admit, the chassis looks a little odd in silver.  Still when the engine is in and body on, cross brace, steering rack and radiator in place, there's not a lot of it to see under bonnet, and I'm sure it'll look fine. 

     

^ I understand new poly-bushes replaced the old, which had been assembled dry and so one side was seized.

All in all looking good, with some tidy reassembly happening and copious use of silicon grease or Coppaslip as and where appropriate ..and I'm sure very precisely too 

 _ _ _

He's also sent me a report on the gearbox coming back from Ken at Classic Transmissions . .

^ just some of the bits left over.  Shafts were replaced too. 

    

^ oops..,  these don't look great.  

    

^ not the ideal for sealing against oil leaks.                           And the spring is from the overdrive.

   

^  Excellent service.    And all being well it'll be both quieter, smooth and oil tight than previously.

- - -

And finally another quick update from M&T this Friday :

^ And very nice too.

All looking so clean .. 

Excellent progress and all to a very high standard of engineering.  I'm now happily anticipating driving a totally transformed TR. 

Have a good evening all,

Pete.