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Invacar MK12 - New owner Mrs 6Cyl


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17 minutes ago, BlankFrank said:

Ta. ? Something puzzling me, any idea what the rope is for?

Pull starter the manual starter option for the person with no legs who cant kick start it? :mrgreen:

(but on a more serious note, im not sure what thats for!)

On 5/24/2020 at 1:30 PM, egg said:

Can't remember what this is!

DSCF9731.thumb.JPG.e0de0a7ac94d114bf6538a4bef643809.JPG

 IIRC thats the windscreen wiper motor, but im not 100% sure, it looks a bit far away from the windscreen unless the wiper is driven by a spiral cable like in a mini or something

sadly I have never seen a Mk12 in person for close inspection I really must rectify that at some point!

(aside from The Hammond Acedes I have not seen any villers machine in person sadly! and I regret not going through the Hammond acedes more thoroughly! (and also regret not taking more pictures!) 

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1 hour ago, egg said:

Come to think of it....you can probably throw a net over JBY/XWC/Dolly/REV and Zel's Invacar - they must all be within 40-50 miles of each other.

I challenge ye all to an Invacar meet (and Wobbler can bring TWC on a trailer).

TWC on a Trailer?! the world really is coming to an end! 

its due to him driving TWC down from wales all the way into central London that when REV finally does arrive home, I cant say its the first Invacar Model 70 to be parked in the dead end at home LOL

(far too many Invacars just get trailed to shows and back its quite sad just how few are actually used)

 

but on a more serious note yeah that would be awesome :) 

 

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Got a decent step forward in progress today: The engine turning over!

I've bypassed all the normal starting circuitry and dynamo + reverser system (the siba black box of gubbins) for testing. I took the 4 fat dynastart wires (labled B1, B2, A, HE) and after some head-scratching tracing the circuit path around the black box (set to the forward start position) I wired it up in the same way on its own and success!

The first 2 false starts were me pulsing it to make sure it starts spinning instead of going up in flames from a possible internal short! ;)

 

The reason i did that instead of just wiring the black box up to it like normal and giving it power on the bench was so i could prevent any damage to the dynastart that could be caused by the black box going bad from 40 years of being sat in the undergrowth. Speaking of which, the video above is the very first time that dynastart has turned over an engine in decades, dunno why but i'm kinda glad i got that on film.

Here's what the remains of the black box look like out of the machine:

dynastartblackbox1.thumb.jpg.1686cb2cf3ff1f0e66e0315931224675.jpg

dynastartblackbox2.thumb.jpg.9165a74f8417fb311d899ef6d6ff61b5.jpg

So you can see why i wanted to bypass it for fear of melting the dynastart.

Another bit of good invacar news, the ebay auction for the oversize piston rings ended and i got it, the seller has said he's posting them tomorrow morning.

The remaining jobs to do for a test start:

  • Finish bolting the dynastart on
  • install ign. points cam
  • install new piston rings
  • hone the cylinder
  • dress sharp cylinder port edges
  • new jug-to-crankcase gasket
  • bolt the head on
  • put old engines chaincase on new engine
  • put old engines ignition points/engine cover on new engine
  • chaincase oil + gearbox oil
  • wire up the ignition coil to the battery, points, and spark plug

Then it should be ready for a test start if i haven't forgotten anything.

As for an invacar meetup, i can't guarantee i'll attend but i'd definitely encourage one nonetheless.

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15 minutes ago, BlankFrank said:

Got a decent step forward in progress today: The engine turning over! ?

I've bypassed all the normal starting circuitry and dynamo + reverser system (the siba black box of gubbins) for testing. I took the 4 fat dynastart wires (labled B1, B2, A, HE) and after some head-scratching tracing the circuit path around the black box (set to the forward start position) I wired it up in the same way on its own and success!

The first 2 false starts were me pulsing it to make sure it starts spinning instead of going up in flames from a possible internal short! ;)

 

The reason i did that instead of just wiring the black box up to it like normal and giving it power on the bench was so i could prevent any damage to the dynastart that could be caused by the black box going bad from 40 years of being sat in the undergrowth. Speaking of which, the video above is the very first time that dynastart has turned over an engine in decades, dunno why but i'm kinda glad i got that on film.

Here's what the remains of the black box look like out of the machine:

dynastartblackbox1.thumb.jpg.1686cb2cf3ff1f0e66e0315931224675.jpg

dynastartblackbox2.thumb.jpg.9165a74f8417fb311d899ef6d6ff61b5.jpg

So you can see why i wanted to bypass it for fear of melting the dynastart.

Another bit of good invacar news, the ebay auction for the oversize piston rings ended and i got it, the seller has said he's posting them tomorrow morning. ?

The remaining jobs to do for a test start:

  • Finish bolting the dynastart on
  • install ign. points cam
  • install new piston rings
  • hone the cylinder
  • dress sharp cylinder port edges
  • new jug-to-crankcase gasket
  • bolt the head on
  • put old engines chaincase on new engine
  • put old engines ignition points/engine cover on new engine
  • chaincase oil + gearbox oil
  • wire up the ignition coil to the battery, points, and spark plug

Then it should be ready for a test start if i haven't forgotten anything.

As for an invacar meetup, i can't guarantee i'll attend but i'd definitely encourage one nonetheless. ?

awesome stuff your making really good progress with this :) I wonder whats under the silver square box on the Dynstart control unit? 

8 minutes ago, somewhatfoolish said:

Random thought; as this eggwhisk goes both ways does it run with no advance/retard(simple), or is there some amazing whizzbang device that provides advance/retard(Apollo moonshot level amazeballs if it is) as required?

IIRC they have 2 sets of points one for going forward and one for going backwards :) 

infact this saved the owner JBY's bacon when the oiler pad for the forward set of points broke off and the points closed up on him, so he stuck it into reverse which engaged the second set of points and happily drove it home 3 miles in reverse! 

(near the end he got a bit over confident and opened her up (still in first gear mind!) and ended up getting a bit of of a tank slapper on the go! the steering not so easy to control when in reverse at speed apparently! thankfully no damage done but it was a close one LOL)

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Btw, i forgot to add "rebuild the carb" to the list also.

Yep, 2 sets of points. Timing is fixed (so no advance/retard) but mirrored so it runs well when going backward.

 

7 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

awesome stuff your making really good progress with this :)

Cheers. :)

7 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

I wonder whats under the silver square box on the Dynstart control unit? 

I haven't opened mine yet but i believe this is the same thing: http://www.dynamoregulatorconversions.com/siba-and-bosch-dynastarts.php

siba%20reg.jpg

 

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👍

 

Been in the garage and got the following done:

  • finished bolting up the dynastart
  • screwed the ignition cam on to the dynastart rotor
  • bolted on the engine cover that holds the points
  • checked timing is good on the points (only did the forward-direction points for now)
  • verified continuity when the points are closed and made sure they actually go open circuit when they physically separate (cleaned the points contact surfaces too)

From the start i had assumed the carburettor was almost certainly a writeoff because the throttle and choke were both seized solid but i managed to free-up both, so:

  • cleaned out the carburettor jets and passages (used a bit of thin solder, i didn't wanna risk embiggening the various orifices)
  • checked the float is still airtight
  • made sure the float needle still closes

The carb was full of this odd sandy crud, not sure if it was actual sand or the degraded dried remains of fuel + fuel-line decomposition.

points.thumb.jpg.a821e7f01ea22d027a152a63f1a08c4a.jpg

carb_parts.thumb.jpg.1ca16da923a3188f59f76fd298ef5d95.jpg

carb_open.thumb.jpg.fac0d424ab16f549cd454faecdb60490.jpg

I didn't %100 strip it down and clean it spotless, just enough so that i can make sure that it works come test-time before putting any more elbow grease into it.

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13 hours ago, Mrs6C said:

I'd be happy to host an Invacar/AC invalid carriage Jamboree weekend at the FoD in due course...

I was thinking "I hope REV is ready when that happens so I can get to it with her"

but then realised oh yeah REV is already at the FoD what am I worrying about :) 

(although it would be nice to have her at least driving round the FoD by then of course if nothing else)

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  • 2 months later...

As both top and bottom panels for the siba system are basically rusted into non-existence on mine my plan will be to make a simple enclosure. Because cheap.

In the following (*insert number of years) later if i sell the invacar then that person can replace any stuff with genuine parts, eg. the seat, the "gubbins covers" etc and I'll do my best to ensure any changes are totally reversable.  I like the idea of the invacar as a funky 3-wheeler and as an occasional getabout but i also keep in mind the history of it so i won't be doing anything too crazy.

Cheers for the headsup none-the-less, if you want to know what is highest on the wanted list currently; a rear wheel bearing!

If you come across a rear wheel bearing for this model of invacar (or a compatible one) on ebay that would be fantastic. Everything else i have a plan for: brake system, engine/drivetrain is in progress, welding a chassis frame is do-able, clutch is do-able, fibreglass is do-able, etc, It's just the rear wheel bearing is seized on the nearside rear (the driven side connected to the drive shaft) so that'll be a stumbling block down the road when i get to it.  ✌️

Edit: Thought i would add a note for people wondering the current state of my Invacar, it's on the back burner but still being worked on. I probably won't post a proper picture-filled update until i've got something worth showing, ie frame work or engine progress or something. ;)

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2 hours ago, BlankFrank said:

As both top and bottom panels for the siba system are basically rusted into non-existence on mine my plan will be to make a simple enclosure. Because cheap. ?

In the following (*insert number of years) later if i sell the invacar then that person can replace any stuff with genuine parts, eg. the seat, the "gubbins covers" etc and I'll do my best to ensure any changes are totally reversable.  I like the idea of the invacar as a funky 3-wheeler and as an occasional getabout but i also keep in mind the history of it so i won't be doing anything too crazy.

Cheers for the headsup none-the-less, if you want to know what is highest on the wanted list currently; a rear wheel bearing! ?

If you come across a rear wheel bearing for this model of invacar (or a compatible one) on ebay that would be fantastic. Everything else i have a plan for: brake system, engine/drivetrain is in progress, welding a chassis frame is do-able, clutch is do-able, fibreglass is do-able, etc, It's just the rear wheel bearing is seized on the nearside rear (the driven side connected to the drive shaft) so that'll be a stumbling block down the road when i get to it.  ✌️

Edit: Thought i would add a note for people wondering the current state of my Invacar, it's on the back burner but still being worked on. I probably won't post a proper picture-filled update until i've got something worth showing, ie frame work or engine progress or something. ;)

yeah had been wondering how you had been getting on with things :) happy to hear things are progressing :) 

I had look in the DHSS spares list hoping it would give some part numbers, but it does not seem to even list the bearings as a separate item for the Mk12...

it does for AC Vehicles but I dont know if they share the same bearings or not...

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6 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

I had look in the DHSS spares list hoping it would give some part numbers, but it does not seem to even list the bearings as a separate item for the Mk12...

That is likely to be two separate bearings back to back, or just possibly a single, twin row bearing.  Possibly not serviced separately, and supplied already fitted to the hub carrier.

Can't think of a regular car of the period which would use anything suitable - when did they start using that design?  Probably standard industrial parts.  A bearing factor should be able to match them up.  Getting the old ones out may* be entertaining,

 

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1 hour ago, Mr Pastry said:

That is likely to be two separate bearings back to back, or just possibly a single, twin row bearing.  Possibly not serviced separately, and supplied already fitted to the hub carrier.

Can't think of a regular car of the period which would use anything suitable - when did they start using that design?  Probably standard industrial parts.  A bearing factor should be able to match them up.  Getting the old ones out may* be entertaining,

 yeah it just list the stub axels nearside and offside 

im not sure exactly how far back it goes, I know the Mk12 was introduced in 1960 but I dont know if its rear hubs where shared with the Mk11, Mk10A or Mk10 at all or not (Mk10 being introduced in 1957, Mk10A in 1958 and Mk11 in 1959 I think...)

 

I dunno on the Herald thing, the Model 70 uses Herald rear brake shoes as we deduced, but obviously uses Fiat 500 stuff for the rear hub assembly otherwise, so I would not automatically assume the Mk12 uses Herald parts but who knows!

 

for reference here is what it stays for the AC machines, its listed under the same Store numbers, on all of them ,the Model 57 64 and 67, but as mentioned theres nothing for the Mk12, so I dont know if these the same or not, but it might give you some clue as to what to look for hopefully :) 

image.png.f3f3f749b87d2c4861289de68adf56d1.png

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Herald started in 59, I would guess earlier Villiers invacars used the same rear suspension as the Mk 12.  There is a current bearing manufacturer BRL, not sure how far they go back but it seems a familiar name, and 1" and 7/8" would be the internal diameter but that isn't enough to ID the actual bearing.  Food for thought tho.

I think we can assume that the hubs themselves were not Herald as these would be 3.75 PCD - pics might help, obvs.

   

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  • 2 months later...

spotted this on ebay the other day https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/293764467829

figured id let you know about it @BlankFrank :) 

I THINK it will fit the Invacar Mk12 (at first I thought they used a different type, but no I think they use this type, well you have a Mk12c so im sure you can double check to be safe)

and since I dont know the condition of yours if you want spares id let you know about it :) 

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