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Invacar MK12 - BlankFrank has started work

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This week in XWC nooz:

It thinks it's a Citroen...

bork.thumb.jpg.c53b21bc70c52122c81e2509505033ce.jpg

 

That whole crossmember will be replaced, the pic is to illustrate the severity of the current rust situation. :P (it happened while dragging it through my garage, wasn't intentional but i couldnt resist getting a pic of it like that)

 

fram1.thumb.jpg.f4b3536ff757a79d1539a2face0f7060.jpg

 

apart.thumb.jpg.a5d35e77a273386879b03983bde9352e.jpg

rearoff.thumb.jpg.0d2170813f7ae140484870862785bf89.jpg

 

Got the rear-end bodywork off, then the side door-like panel.
Separated the engine wiring from the body wiring and disconnected the drive shaft.
Disconnected the clutch, gear shift connection, accelerator and choke cables then removed the engine.

 

 

rearthreequarters.thumb.jpg.9a141772c2eb79ee5a01f63e66f4cf97.jpg

 

enjeen.thumb.jpg.0e4d2d1d3b173910a658112a85b9bf8d.jpg

 

With the entire engine/drivetrain removed, that last wheel is still seized so it'll be the brakes or bearings on that side that's locked-up i'd say.
Next job will be to clear all the misc crap out of the engine fan housing and see if it spins freely. The clutch arm on the old engine doesn't spring back but the cleaner looking spare (thanks again btw Egg :) ) seems to have a functional clutch and the engine spins freely on the spare too so i'll be relying on that to get the invacar running.


@LBF, Yep all sorted there. :)

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yay happy to see more work being done towards her restoration/recommissioning, making good progress :) 

I hope the original engine is still good and all that, as it would be neat to see XWC retain her original engine if possible :) 

 

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Oof, that is somewhat crispy in places isn't it.  Hopefully the repairs aren't too hideous.  I guess at least there isn't a huge amount to the metalwork to begin with. 

I guess considering the age and storage conditions she hasn't done all that badly really to be honest despite the appearance.

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On 5/2/2020 at 12:59 AM, barrett said:

Yes, it's Dublin in 1978, cropped from this photo, and there's definitely a Z in the reg somewhere!2012650975_Screenshot_2020-05-02AllsizesDUBLINEIRE1978pic010Flickr-PhotoSharingcopy.thumb.jpg.4591a91999d88346950f892e9aab9c84.jpg

 

That is an evocative pic, can imagine the Invacar owner downing 6 pints of the dark stuff during the afternoon and then making his way home at 12 mph. In the dark. With no rear lights.

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26 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

That is an evocative pic, can imagine the Invacar owner downing 6 pints of the dark stuff during the afternoon and then making his way home at 12 mph. In the dark. With no rear lights.

there is a story somewhere of someone getting pull over by the police for drink driving in their invacar, only for the the police men ending up having to call in a senior police officer

because none of the police men could figure out how to operate the invacar and its abnormal controls to recover it to the police station!

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InvaUpdate:

Lower fan cover removed, nothing visibly jamming it. The fan only has the slightest amount rotation but i'm not giving it any more than a finger-tight strength twisting for safety. Cleared it out and still not turning over. (surprise surprise)

crapfilled.thumb.jpg.c4f95f7d54bf8e4162c89141d6b6f3a7.jpg

 

On the other end of spinny bits however, the driveshaft and what i'll call the large "final drive sprocket" are able to rotate about 30 degrees, a little more with some effort until i can get the chain-drive assembly (with driveshaft still attached) to rotate about 90 degrees in total. I found the chains removable link and popped it off, the chain was rusted to the final drive sprocket so tightly that i had to hammer it off with a rubber mallet.

 seizedchain.thumb.jpg.695042007d43ba43a22e306e42e2dab6.jpg 

 

Once the chain was totally off i could rotate the driveshaft and final drive sprocket in its bearing fully, no grinding or binding up. Still aligned to the engines smaller output sprocket through its full rotation. :)

With the chain off that allowed me to separate the engine from the engine mounting cradle thing:

topish.thumb.jpg.ec467c3e0a9f737c52e0766fc012d915.jpg

 

Black thing is the speedo cable, still need to get that out, it's being a b'stard.

topdown.thumb.jpg.7d6ebb597dd299c1c74143675bc9f026.jpg

 

This Autoshite post sponsored by a can of PlusGas from the early 80's:

 

plusgas.thumb.jpg.e2b542288002a3f14e4018beb79d7b29.jpg

 

😋

 

On 5/18/2020 at 7:09 PM, egg said:

All good to see. This gasket set was in my watch list and may be of use...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NOS-Gasket-Set-Villiers-11E-197cc-t-s-FREE-UK-P-P/283491015918

Added to my watch list. 👍

 

On 5/19/2020 at 1:30 AM, Zelandeth said:

Just noting from your reported location that you're apparently in Bucks...Not a million miles away from me.  I may need to bring TPA over to visit at some point once we're allowed to do things like that again...

Fine with me,  feel free to message me about it in a few months when it's viable. 👍

 

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18 minutes ago, jonathan_dyane said:

Excellent work! Does the engine turn now you’ve freed it from that knackered chain?

Cheers. The engine is still seized unfortunately. The gear change seems to function because i can get it into neutral and the small output sprocket will turn freely then when i shift into any of the 4 gears the sprocket stops moving and is totally solid when any attempt is made to rotate it so presumably the engine/gearbox/clutch/dynastart is seized. (assuming the gearbox shift mech is doing it's thing correctly internally)

Next jobs will be getting the other covers off to clean out any more detritus that's likely hiding and seeing if the dynastart is seized along with any other moving parts i can rule out before opening up the engine + box + clutch fully.

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Yay more Mk12 goodness :) 

happy to see things are coming apart ok, shame to see the engine is still sized, hopefully its nothing major etc :) 

and these villiers engines are very simple beasts anyways, so id like to think theres not much that could write it off! :) 

(and if all else fails you do have the spare engine, and gearbox? or is it just the engine itself?)

and yeah glad to hear that this is still fairly local, I sadly never got a chance to see XWC while it was in @egg's ownership so im glad ill still be able to see it relatively easily :) 

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Yep it's a spare engine, gearbox and clutch as one assembly. No dynastart or points or gear shift lever and there are probably other bits absent that i'm forgetting. Good thing about these engines is the gearbox seems pretty tightly integrated into the engine so when you buy an engine, it basically comes with the gearbox too. :)

Might take some pics of it in a future update.

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3 minutes ago, BlankFrank said:

Yep it's a spare engine, gearbox and clutch as one assembly. No dynastart or points or gear shift lever and there are probably other bits absent that i'm forgetting. Good thing about these engines is the gearbox seems pretty tightly integrated into the engine so when you buy an engine, it basically comes with the gearbox too. :)Might take some pics of it in a future update.

Yeah thats what I thought :) 

you may notice the spare engine is marked 313R where XWCs engine is marked 313F, I BELIEVE the whole 11E then 313F or 419F or 313R thing is to do with the "built in" gearbox's ratios but im not 100% sure

it would be interesting to check the gearing between them if thats possible at all! 

you have 11E thats the general engine type then you have the next number which is its specification number, which as I said I THINK is to do with the gear ratios but im not 100% sure if someone does know please do let me know!

its interesting to note the Ministry lists the 419F specification engine for every Villers machine I have in this spare parts list, except the Mk12 for which they list the 313F engine

for example here is the Model 67

image.thumb.png.cab57843892a9d852483188ea98caa43.png

and the Model 66, Invacar Mk12

image.thumb.png.ac646f63dc5ef8fc3d92b014db300afa.png

I do wonder what the diffrence is and why the Mk12 got its own engine spec compared to the rest, AFAIK every villers machine tops out at about 40-50Mph top speed, but I dont know if thats gearing limited or just engine power limited 

I have seen a few other 11E engines with different spec numbers in some villiers invalid vehicles IIRC, so maybe perhaps the DHSS just standardised the engine specifications at some point?

im really not sure tbh! sadly there's comparatively very little info out there on the Villers machines!

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Is the head separate on these or part of the cylinder barrel itself?  If it's separate that's probably be looking to pull that sooner rather than later as it should give you a bit of an idea of what state the internals are in, and then whether or not (or more likely how thoroughly!) the piston is stuck to the jug.

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2 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

Is the head separate on these or part of the cylinder barrel itself?  If it's separate that's probably be looking to pull that sooner rather than later as it should give you a bit of an idea of what state the internals are in, and then whether or not (or more likely how thoroughly!) the piston is stuck to the jug.

the head is indeed separate :) it even has a head gasket going by the gasket kit @egg posted, which amusing is not something the Steyr puch engine in the Model 70 has AFAIK!

On 2/16/2020 at 11:35 AM, LightBulbFun said:

Tri engined Invacar? 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/124084891889

its interesting to see one with the head removed, and just how much of is just barrel rather then piston! LOL

image.thumb.png.65b0284117a54984cf3f7b9cbd4318e1.png

 

 

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3 hours ago, BlankFrank said:

Yep it's a spare engine, gearbox and clutch as one assembly. No dynastart or points or gear shift lever and there are probably other bits absent that i'm forgetting. Good thing about these engines is the gearbox seems pretty tightly integrated into the engine so when you buy an engine, it basically comes with the gearbox too. :)

Might take some pics of it in a future update.

If you do end up fitting the spare engine you could always leave it as a kickstart, like an early Bond.

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17 minutes ago, wuvvum said:

If you do end up fitting the spare engine you could always leave it as a kickstart, like an early Bond.

 

14 minutes ago, jonathan_dyane said:

It’s going to be awkward getting out of your wheelchair to start it with a kickstart mind

you joke but the the first Invacars could actually be kick started! and the fact the invacar had an electric starter was an advertising point

image.thumb.png.fa711de87fc65da8c2e2af89fbd0fc14.png

(I belive the facility to kick start them was left in as a sort last resort/emergency type thing, same reason Bond mini cars retained the facility)

 

and amusingly quite a few Model 70's do have a starter dog fitted for a starting handle!

Image from iOS (19).jpg

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After taking the heads off of both engines i'm shifting strategy, the plan will now be to make a good engine by starting with the 3R engine as a base (the clean unseized but incomplete one from ebay) and putting all the required parts from the 3F engine (XWC's original seized up engine) on it. I'm not going to bin the original engine but it's just not feasable to use it at this point in time.  I'd rather start with a base that's already %30 toward being done instead of starting from square 1 with the seized engine.

 

both_engines.thumb.jpg.1f44d708cdd2c922f3dc525780e19c82.jpg

 

both_engines_again.thumb.jpg.14bfe957b0eb8895bc8a501eaebcaeee.jpg

 

 

Here's XWC's original engine that i'll call '3F' for simplicity with it's head off:

The head gasket is obviously blown, i assume that's what originally took XWC off the road (presumably in the 90's) unless it happened in the space of time between it getting taken off the road years ago and when it was parked on the verge in the wreckers yard all the way back on page 1 of this topic.

3F_blown_head.thumb.jpg.c40ca7f838768aa2e05c45104e2b1dc2.jpg

(above is 3F's jug with manky piston and 3F's head, all pictures below are from 3R)

3R on the other hand is clean inside apart from some light rusting from lack of use which shouldn't be too bad (please correct me if i'm wrong though, this goes for anything i say btw)

3R_innerbores3.thumb.jpg.1b716fc6087fdcfe517ff98c29f7c860.jpg

 

3R_innerbores2.thumb.jpg.cca6e5534b07bc3823048698670527f2.jpg

 

3R_innerbores1.thumb.jpg.943bd660d6e2de02ef8eaaff5d67cad0.jpg

^ this bit on 3R's cylinder wall is the worst, still savable though? (correct me if wrong)

3R_innerbores4.thumb.jpg.9b4555d000491601e92ee4cfd44b4d8e.jpg

 

If you look closely you'll see the piston on 3R is a +.015" oversized one and that means the cylinder has been re-bored oversized too. That would entail +.015" oversized piston rings so i checked they were installed and...

3R_no_rings.thumb.jpg.bfd8d0f4fc5303480726971ba2947c2e.jpg

The replacement engine has no rings! :P

Then i rememberd egg writing in a post that the replacement engine's rings were in an envelope separately so i checked them out and..

3R_ringsandfin.thumb.jpg.c2407a4ebb24679e37475a1699806981.jpg

..bugger, both are broken. :wacko:

As the relacement engine is an oversized jobbie i'll get the corresponding rings for it, it's still got a far better chance at functioning than the seized engine.

The replacement engine seems to have eaten its own rings at some point in the past, the ones included in the envelope might have been what was left of them. The damaged head looked like it was possibly going to be re-used by the engine's previous owner (before egg), i'm undecided on whether i want to use XWC's original non-pitted head or the one that came with the replacement engine.

This is the pitted head that came with the replacement engine:

3R_head_pitting.jpg

^ that pic has the head gasket placed on top to show where the jug would meet it when bolted down. The mating surface is smoother than that on the actual head, the pitting however is part of the head and not the gasket.

3R (clean replacement)'s gearbox goes through all the gears correctly which is good and all the parts that need to go on it (apart from the rings) are comptible with 3F's parts for swapping over.

Still unsure specifically what seized on the original engine (3F) but during the engine assembly of 3R i'll peck away at the original one until i find out.

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So long as it's not pitted that cylinder should be fine after a good honing I'd think. 

I'd definitely be looking to use the original non pitted head.  Gives the best chance of working and you can pull the rest of the engine apart at a later date to see if you can get it going as a spare.

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6 hours ago, BlankFrank said:

The head gasket is obviously blown, i assume that's what originally took XWC off the road (presumably in the 90's)

interesting that the head gasket was blown! XWC came off the road sometime before the 1st of August 1980 as thats when she ran out of tax, (before getting Taxed and SORNed by @egg)

so she has been off the road coming up to 40 years now!

you might already be be aware of them but I believe these guys are the go to for villiers spares these days :) https://villiersservices.co.uk/

im sure they will have the piston rings you need :) 

 

as a side note on the gearbox thing I mentioned earlier, I was checking the villiers parts list in the DHSS spare parts list

and its interesting to note they list 2 final drive sprocket with different teeth count, which If I understands my mechanics correctly would directly affect the final drive ratio right?

it would be interesting to see how many teeth the sprockets on your engines have :) 

image.png

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It might be worth dressing the port edges, the rebore looks to have been used for a short while and those sharp edged ports may be why it's got a new looking piston with no rings yet fitted. 

I've not dealt with 2 strokes for years but the rings riding the port edges I remember being a bugger with new rings etc

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5 hours ago, egg said:

I think those rings may have got broken on 3R in storage with me, for which I apologise.

No worries. 🙂

35 minutes ago, Jikovron said:

It might be worth dressing the port edges, the rebore looks to have been used for a short while and those sharp edged ports may be why it's got a new looking piston with no rings yet fitted. 

I've not dealt with 2 strokes for years but the rings riding the port edges I remember being a bugger with new rings etc

Cheers for the info. 👍

Any 2 stroke people are welcome to chime in with any/all info reguarding the rebuild; i'll always appreciate the knowledge.

1 hour ago, LightBulbFun said:

It would be interesting to see how many teeth the sprockets on your engines have :)

Okidoke, i'll put that on my to do list. Also yep i've been browsing their site, very useful. 👍

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Question for 2 Stroke people (or anyone who knows) :

Would there be any serious reprocussions if i used 0.010" oversized rings instead of 0.015" ones, i understand that the ring gap will be bigger but would it be noticable/damaging at all to go with them? Reason being that i can't seem to find 0.015" oversized rings specifically.

 

I've found some 0.015 rings for a villiers 197cc but the age cut-off ends before my engine was presumably built, anyone know if they'd be compatible?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Villiers-197cc-1938-to-1956-set-of-Wellworthy-Milemaster-015-piston-rings/184301577323?hash=item2ae93ae46b:g:UWwAAOSwIV5dvD7x

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If you use the .010" rings they will not fit the bore tightly enough and will in effect be worn out before you start,  i.e. not so much compression and plenty of smoke.   You may get away with it, but better not to IMO.  

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