project Invacar MK12 - New owner Mrs 6Cyl

[BlankFrank]

18 minutes ago, jonathan_dyane said:

Excellent work! Does the engine turn now you’ve freed it from that knackered chain?

Cheers. The engine is still seized unfortunately. The gear change seems to function because i can get it into neutral and the small output sprocket will turn freely then when i shift into any of the 4 gears the sprocket stops moving and is totally solid when any attempt is made to rotate it so presumably the engine/gearbox/clutch/dynastart is seized. (assuming the gearbox shift mech is doing it's thing correctly internally)

Next jobs will be getting the other covers off to clean out any more detritus that's likely hiding and seeing if the dynastart is seized along with any other moving parts i can rule out before opening up the engine + box + clutch fully.

[LightBulbFun]

Yay more Mk12 goodness  

happy to see things are coming apart ok, shame to see the engine is still sized, hopefully its nothing major etc  

and these villiers engines are very simple beasts anyways, so id like to think theres not much that could write it off!  

(and if all else fails you do have the spare engine, and gearbox? or is it just the engine itself?)

and yeah glad to hear that this is still fairly local, I sadly never got a chance to see XWC while it was in @egg's ownership so im glad ill still be able to see it relatively easily  

[BlankFrank]

Yep it's a spare engine, gearbox and clutch as one assembly. No dynastart or points or gear shift lever and there are probably other bits absent that i'm forgetting. Good thing about these engines is the gearbox seems pretty tightly integrated into the engine so when you buy an engine, it basically comes with the gearbox too.

Might take some pics of it in a future update.

[LightBulbFun]

3 minutes ago, BlankFrank said:

Yep it's a spare engine, gearbox and clutch as one assembly. No dynastart or points or gear shift lever and there are probably other bits absent that i'm forgetting. Good thing about these engines is the gearbox seems pretty tightly integrated into the engine so when you buy an engine, it basically comes with the gearbox too. Might take some pics of it in a future update.

Yeah thats what I thought  

you may notice the spare engine is marked 313R where XWCs engine is marked 313F, I BELIEVE the whole 11E then 313F or 419F or 313R thing is to do with the "built in" gearbox's ratios but im not 100% sure

it would be interesting to check the gearing between them if thats possible at all! 

you have 11E thats the general engine type then you have the next number which is its specification number, which as I said I THINK is to do with the gear ratios but im not 100% sure if someone does know please do let me know!

its interesting to note the Ministry lists the 419F specification engine for every Villers machine I have in this spare parts list, except the Mk12 for which they list the 313F engine

for example here is the Model 67

and the Model 66, Invacar Mk12

I do wonder what the diffrence is and why the Mk12 got its own engine spec compared to the rest, AFAIK every villers machine tops out at about 40-50Mph top speed, but I dont know if thats gearing limited or just engine power limited 

I have seen a few other 11E engines with different spec numbers in some villiers invalid vehicles IIRC, so maybe perhaps the DHSS just standardised the engine specifications at some point?

im really not sure tbh! sadly there's comparatively very little info out there on the Villers machines!

[Zelandeth]

Is the head separate on these or part of the cylinder barrel itself?  If it's separate that's probably be looking to pull that sooner rather than later as it should give you a bit of an idea of what state the internals are in, and then whether or not (or more likely how thoroughly!) the piston is stuck to the jug.

[BlankFrank]

2-part, head separate from jug.

Good idea, i might go out to the garage and give it a try. I'm concerned that the bolts+stud that hold the head on will be rust seized.

[LightBulbFun]

2 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

Is the head separate on these or part of the cylinder barrel itself?  If it's separate that's probably be looking to pull that sooner rather than later as it should give you a bit of an idea of what state the internals are in, and then whether or not (or more likely how thoroughly!) the piston is stuck to the jug.

the head is indeed separate  it even has a head gasket going by the gasket kit @egg posted, which amusing is not something the Steyr puch engine in the Model 70 has AFAIK!

On 2/16/2020 at 11:35 AM, LightBulbFun said:

Tri engined Invacar? 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/124084891889

its interesting to see one with the head removed, and just how much of is just barrel rather then piston! LOL

 

 

[wuvvum]

3 hours ago, BlankFrank said:

Yep it's a spare engine, gearbox and clutch as one assembly. No dynastart or points or gear shift lever and there are probably other bits absent that i'm forgetting. Good thing about these engines is the gearbox seems pretty tightly integrated into the engine so when you buy an engine, it basically comes with the gearbox too.

Might take some pics of it in a future update.

If you do end up fitting the spare engine you could always leave it as a kickstart, like an early Bond.

[jonathan_dyane]

It’s going to be awkward getting out of your wheelchair to start it with a kickstart mind

[LightBulbFun]

17 minutes ago, wuvvum said:

If you do end up fitting the spare engine you could always leave it as a kickstart, like an early Bond.

 

14 minutes ago, jonathan_dyane said:

It’s going to be awkward getting out of your wheelchair to start it with a kickstart mind

you joke but the the first Invacars could actually be kick started! and the fact the invacar had an electric starter was an advertising point

(I belive the facility to kick start them was left in as a sort last resort/emergency type thing, same reason Bond mini cars retained the facility)

 

and amusingly quite a few Model 70's do have a starter dog fitted for a starting handle!

[BlankFrank]

After taking the heads off of both engines i'm shifting strategy, the plan will now be to make a good engine by starting with the 3R engine as a base (the clean unseized but incomplete one from ebay) and putting all the required parts from the 3F engine (XWC's original seized up engine) on it. I'm not going to bin the original engine but it's just not feasable to use it at this point in time.  I'd rather start with a base that's already %30 toward being done instead of starting from square 1 with the seized engine.

 

 

 

 

Here's XWC's original engine that i'll call '3F' for simplicity with it's head off:

The head gasket is obviously blown, i assume that's what originally took XWC off the road (presumably in the 90's) unless it happened in the space of time between it getting taken off the road years ago and when it was parked on the verge in the wreckers yard all the way back on page 1 of this topic.

(above is 3F's jug with manky piston and 3F's head, all pictures below are from 3R)

3R on the other hand is clean inside apart from some light rusting from lack of use which shouldn't be too bad (please correct me if i'm wrong though, this goes for anything i say btw)

 

 

^ this bit on 3R's cylinder wall is the worst, still savable though? (correct me if wrong)

 

If you look closely you'll see the piston on 3R is a +.015" oversized one and that means the cylinder has been re-bored oversized too. That would entail +.015" oversized piston rings so i checked they were installed and...

The replacement engine has no rings!

Then i rememberd egg writing in a post that the replacement engine's rings were in an envelope separately so i checked them out and..

..bugger, both are broken.

As the relacement engine is an oversized jobbie i'll get the corresponding rings for it, it's still got a far better chance at functioning than the seized engine.

The replacement engine seems to have eaten its own rings at some point in the past, the ones included in the envelope might have been what was left of them. The damaged head looked like it was possibly going to be re-used by the engine's previous owner (before egg), i'm undecided on whether i want to use XWC's original non-pitted head or the one that came with the replacement engine.

This is the pitted head that came with the replacement engine:

^ that pic has the head gasket placed on top to show where the jug would meet it when bolted down. The mating surface is smoother than that on the actual head, the pitting however is part of the head and not the gasket.

3R (clean replacement)'s gearbox goes through all the gears correctly which is good and all the parts that need to go on it (apart from the rings) are comptible with 3F's parts for swapping over.

Still unsure specifically what seized on the original engine (3F) but during the engine assembly of 3R i'll peck away at the original one until i find out.

[Zelandeth]

So long as it's not pitted that cylinder should be fine after a good honing I'd think. 

I'd definitely be looking to use the original non pitted head.  Gives the best chance of working and you can pull the rest of the engine apart at a later date to see if you can get it going as a spare.

[jonathan_dyane]

That’s absolutely the right call, the original engine looks like a world of pain

[egg]

I think those rings may have got broken on 3R in storage with me, for which I apologise.

[LightBulbFun]

6 hours ago, BlankFrank said:

The head gasket is obviously blown, i assume that's what originally took XWC off the road (presumably in the 90's)

interesting that the head gasket was blown! XWC came off the road sometime before the 1st of August 1980 as thats when she ran out of tax, (before getting Taxed and SORNed by @egg)

so she has been off the road coming up to 40 years now!

you might already be be aware of them but I believe these guys are the go to for villiers spares these days  https://villiersservices.co.uk/

im sure they will have the piston rings you need  

 

as a side note on the gearbox thing I mentioned earlier, I was checking the villiers parts list in the DHSS spare parts list

and its interesting to note they list 2 final drive sprocket with different teeth count, which If I understands my mechanics correctly would directly affect the final drive ratio right?

it would be interesting to see how many teeth the sprockets on your engines have  

[Jikovron]

It might be worth dressing the port edges, the rebore looks to have been used for a short while and those sharp edged ports may be why it's got a new looking piston with no rings yet fitted. 

I've not dealt with 2 strokes for years but the rings riding the port edges I remember being a bugger with new rings etc

[BlankFrank]

On 5/23/2020 at 8:26 AM, egg said:

I think those rings may have got broken on 3R in storage with me, for which I apologise.

No worries.

On 5/23/2020 at 1:35 PM, Jikovron said:

It might be worth dressing the port edges, the rebore looks to have been used for a short while and those sharp edged ports may be why it's got a new looking piston with no rings yet fitted. 

I've not dealt with 2 strokes for years but the rings riding the port edges I remember being a bugger with new rings etc

Cheers for the info.

Any 2 stroke people are welcome to chime in with any/all info reguarding the rebuild; i'll always appreciate the knowledge.

On 5/23/2020 at 12:27 PM, LightBulbFun said:

It would be interesting to see how many teeth the sprockets on your engines have

Okidoke, i'll put that on my to do list. Also yep i've been browsing their site, very useful.

[BlankFrank]

Question for 2 Stroke people (or anyone who knows) :

Would there be any serious reprocussions if i used 0.010" oversized rings instead of 0.015" ones, i understand that the ring gap will be bigger but would it be noticable/damaging at all to go with them? Reason being that i can't seem to find 0.015" oversized rings specifically.

 

I've found some 0.015 rings for a villiers 197cc but the age cut-off ends before my engine was presumably built, anyone know if they'd be compatible?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Villiers-197cc-1938-to-1956-set-of-Wellworthy-Milemaster-015-piston-rings/184301577323?hash=item2ae93ae46b:g:UWwAAOSwIV5dvD7x

[Mr Pastry]

If you use the .010" rings they will not fit the bore tightly enough and will in effect be worn out before you start,  i.e. not so much compression and plenty of smoke.   You may get away with it, but better not to IMO.  

[plasticvandan]

You also have to bear in mind the rings may not fit your piston,as there will be several different manufacturers

[BlankFrank]

Cheers for the headsup guys, very good to know.

[egg]

The Villiers engines group on Facebook has 2k members, and is probably useful for questions like that. The Villiers Services guy is in the group.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/Villiers/

Have I posted this before? 197cc Villiers in a go-kart...

 

[BlankFrank]

Shame i'm one of those non-facebook people.

Found the cause of the seize, top end. At least that's not an unknown now, also as 2 strokes go, top ends almost seem like consumables so i can't be too disappointed i suppose. ?

Can't get the piston out of the jug, one day i'll buy a mapp gas torch and see if i can free it up. Hammering some wood on the piston didn't budge it.

 

 

 

[busmansholiday]

5 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

and its interesting to note they list 2 final drive sprocket with different teeth count, which If I understands my mechanics correctly would directly affect the final drive ratio right?

Is that due to where they intended the vehicle to be used, a bit like buses ?.

Sheffield, being very hilly, specified a different dif ratio to most operators so that they could cope with this. Down side was top speed was severely reduced.

"I've found some 0.015 rings for a villiers 197cc but the age cut-off ends before my engine was presumably built, anyone know if they'd be compatible?"

They should*  be OK, says the man who needs to pull his finger out and fix his Villiers engined bike.

 

[LightBulbFun]

10 minutes ago, busmansholiday said:

Is that due to where they intended the vehicle to be used, a bit like buses ?.

Sheffield, being very hilly, specified a different dif ratio to most operators so that they could cope with this. Down side was top speed was severely reduced.

it is not mentioned specifically in the spare parts list, but I would not be surprised if that was the case or one of the reasons for having different drive sprockets available  

certainly the ministry had specific vehicles designed for Large people and or people living in hilly districts, as seen here

On 8/28/2019 at 11:21 AM, LightBulbFun said:

Not bad

and in the Harper review @barrett posted on my thread which also makes mention of different drive sprockets  

 

On 5/13/2020 at 9:15 PM, barrett said:

Have you seen this before?

Will send you something else by PM shortly...

 

[egg]

1 hour ago, BlankFrank said:

Shame i'm one of those non-facebook people

I've left that group now, as I didn't think I'd be needing it again! But happy to rejoin and ask the question for you, if you think it is of use, but busman's holiday's answer seems to be helpful anyway.

[LightBulbFun]

Aye although I sadly have 0 experience in the matter I too think it should be alright

because I spotted this https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/333584082378

which overlaps date wise with the 015 ones you found  

besides even if you cant find any on ebay im sure the villers website would have something and I doubt it would be too expensive its just piston rings for a simple 2 stroke engine! 

(I know when @egg contacted them they said they had every part for the 11E engine in stock or something to that effect anyway!)

[BlankFrank]

@egg

Cheers, i've taken a punt on the only Villiers 197cc 0.015" rings on ebay, auction ends in 3 days. I'll be sure to let you know if i need the FB group.

According to this http://www.users.waitrose.com/~colinatkinson/mq29.html all villiers 197cc engines had a bore of 59mm as standard so that fact along with busmans' comment gives me enough of a reason to put in a bid on the rings on ebay.

@LightBulbFun

True, good catch on the overlap.
Regarding the Villiers repairer website I thought that too but after looking i couldn't specifically find rings for 0.015" overbore on a 197cc / 59mm bore diameter piston ring, they had other overbore sizes though.

[somewhatfoolish]

9 hours ago, BlankFrank said:

Can't get the piston out of the jug, one day i'll buy a mapp gas torch and see if i can free it up. Hammering some wood on the piston didn't budge it.

Leave the barrel in a bucket of vinegar for a week or so, the piston will free up. Coke will work too.

[egg]

i've got a few more close up pics of JBY here, doubt they add much  - but just in case - thought I'd share

Modified fuelling arrangement:

Control close up

Can't remember what this is!

Wheelchair storage arrangement

Dynastart on rear shelf

Engine