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Invacar MK12 - New owner Mrs 6Cyl


egg

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@egg I spoke to Stuart today and among the many things talked about (which ill be posting about in my own thread soon :) )  

and we spoke a bit your issues getting your Mk12 registered 

and Stuart spoke to Simon/Big Al, and it seems like somewhere along the line there was a communications fail (surprise surprise! LOL)

and he says Simon/Big Al have been waiting for a V765 and V55/4 from you for them to sign off on/stamp

 

he says your Mk12 should be a nice easy one to do as you already have all the evidence etc rounded up and ready to go, so for the ICR, all they have to do is sign off on it

although one thing he says just in future when you submit pictures etc, nail a set of number plates to it, even if they are cheap and nasty ones that are clearly brand new or just even numbers painted on London Transport Routemaster bus style

he says the DVLA like that sort of thing, and it can help with V765's etc

 

so here is what I would do/say:

 lets hope this V62 does go through and work first :) 

 

but in the meantime id fill out a V765 and V55/4 ready to go just incase, 

I would also contact the owner of JBY503J and kindly ask for a picture of the V5c so we can get a better idea of what the V5c of a Mk12 looks like so we know how to better fill out the V55/4

and of course please do show me the V55/4 before you submit it etc if it comes to that, id like to make sure all the info on its is correct! and also so I can make sure no fields are filled in unsserly, remember there's a lot of things on it that are just not applicable to invacars

(id also be happy to fill in the V55/4 for you and then you can go over it and make sure theres no admin side of things that I have missed!)

but whatever you dont submit the V765 V55/4 until after this whole V62 thing is over with! (on the V62 situation, Stuart says  he never seen a vehicle that does not show up on the DVLA  get a result from a V62 before, but I say given that it looks like the DVLA might actually be doing something this time id say lets wait before V765ing things)

if it does come to a V765 V55/4 I can then hand it to Stuart who can push it through for us and make sure it does not get lost to any more communication fails!

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The DVLA are fucking awful (time wise) when it comes to applying for a V5 that you didn't get.  God knows, maybe that have to wait and see if anyone else lays claim to it within whatever time frame they use, but it just takes forever. Have a feeling one took about 12 weeks to come here once, and I bet the Lambretta one I applied for three weeks ago won't be here any time soon.

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holy fucking shit it worked the V62 worked!

im still waiting for my 3rd party sites to update their database so I can check out the details on it

(little bit concerning that it comes back as "2-wheel" with a 1000cc engine, im a bit worried someone thinks its a motorcycle, I want to make sure the Body type comes back as "invalid vehicle" )

but thats so cool! that the V62 worked for a vehicle that no longer showed up on the DVLA

really gives me hope for Stuarts harding :) (and other Mk12's and Model 67s etc that dont show up on the DVLA)

so fucking awesome to see it finally show up, after all the work (and money!) you put in it finally paid off!

id love to know if the last taxed date is just a generic one, or if thats when it was actually last taxed

it does sound about right for a villiers machine, maybe it was a case that whoever was responsible for this Invacar, never got its Buff Log Book changed so it was never properly registered with the DVLA despite surviving into 1980?

but since they kept taxing it im guessing the DVLA would of had records up to that point but this is purely speculation 

(I seem to have 1983 as a cut off date for something to do with those buff logbooks, maybe @busmansholiday can fill us in more there)

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1 hour ago, LightBulbFun said:

(little bit concerning that it comes back as "2-wheel" with a 1000cc engine, im a bit worried someone thinks its a motorcycle, I want to make sure the Body type comes back as "invalid vehicle" )

Yes, but this can be updated right? I'll have to send the new V5 back to them again anyway to get MOT exemption in theory anyway. 

Nothing in the post today, but I'll be waiting in anticipation...

Agree with your point about V765s....

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6 minutes ago, egg said:

Yes, but this can be updated right? I'll have to send the new V5 back to them again anyway to get MOT exemption in theory anyway. 

Nothing in the post today, but I'll be waiting in anticipation...

Agree with your point about V765s....

it should be changeable in theory, but when Zel tried to do it all they updated was the engine capacity and put the engine number in that was missing beforehand on TPAs V5

they never changed anything else on the V5, but thats just DVLA shenanigans I imagine

which was very good in Zels case because he erroneously changed the body type from Invalid vehicle to Tricycle, but luckily as mentioned, the DVLA never updated that

he dodged a bullet there!

I look forward to seeing the Physical V5c of XWC :) (as mentioned the main thing I want to make sure is correct is your body type as that's what dictates the legal side of things when it comes to invalid vehicles)

 

but yeah the fact you got XWC to show up on the DVLA again with just a V62, really is something

because AFAIK the universal consensus is/was that if a historic vehicle no longer shows up on the DVLA, its a V765 jobby and the DVLA wont have any info on it

but your case shows the DVLA does have some info old vehicles, I really do wonder what exactly the DVLA has squirreled away in there basement so to speak

this is really good news for historic vehicles everywhere not just invacars :)

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14 minutes ago, egg said:

Indeed. Of course another error is year of manufacture which should be '67...

not too surprised by that given how it was first Registered on the 24th of January 1968 so would of been right on the cusp (which BTW checks out with the Essex records :) ) for example REV was made in October 1976 but registered for the first time on the 5th of November 1976 

it looks like the year of manufacture was only a recent thing as for vehicles which have been inactive for a long while don't display a year of manufacture, but then when suddenly they become active, one shows up, I imagine based off the date of first registration

see TPA for example :) 

image.thumb.png.7838d751105aff527919f1c433f7a4b6.png

 

Screenshot 2019-01-29 at 13.10.26.png

 

so yeah technically an error, but one that would of been there from the start/regardless if that makes sense :)

 

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I do find it most curious still how XWC Despite having an earlier chassis number was registried a good few months later then WOO976F

ill have to check with Stuart if the chassis number he has for WOO976F is one he confirmed properly, or if he found out about it via a round of chinese whispers

esp as its a as WOO976F is a Wxx-F car which logically would come before Xxx-F

 

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13 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

I haven't had the V5 yet for Dolly. The DVLA has taken my money, though, so I guess it will happen in due course...

I reckon the dusty guy (or gal) in the basement who does Invacar V5's has just got back from their long summer holiday ;-). Hopefully you'll get it soon.

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7 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

I haven't had the V5 yet for Dolly. The DVLA has taken my money, though, so I guess it will happen in due course...

ah cool (I think!)

I was wondering how the application for dolly's V5 was going :) 

(it seems like Brian getting MPH759Ps V5 so quickly was the exception rather then the rule sadly!)

if they cashed your cheque I think that's a good sign, as I dont think they would cash the cheque if there was an issue with the V62 application

remember once you get the V5 all you have to do to do to hit the road with Dolly on the paperwork side of things, is to go to the post office with a V112 and ask to change the tax class to "Historic" from "Disabled"

you dont have to do this when you get the V5, but its just something to be done before you hit the road 

(although going by how fraser managed to tax his mobility scooter online despite it being in the disabled tax class, it does make me wonder if you can do the same with Invacars and tax one online without changing the tax class its something id like to try with one purely as a case study of course, as unless you're actually disabled your vehicle should not be in the disabled tax class! )

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https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/133172282832

I see Barry is not done selling off his Invacar spares

one engine for each wheel, 3 wheel drive? :mrgreen:

"I think it is 197 cc  but could have been fitted with a 250 cc barrel at some time - I don't know."

so you can upgrade the piston/barrels on these like a Steyr puch or 2CV engine then?

that would be down right lethal in a Mk12 with its 1 wheel drive LOL

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22 minutes ago, egg said:

Yes, many Villiers 197cc were upgraded on motorbikes, so I guess this would be the same. 8.5bhp is enough for me!

Will watch this with interest, thanks.

Meanwhile. Good news!

28755582_IMG_20190916_1556432.thumb.jpg.d5ab61b2a931a00324da34457693e985.jpg

aye yeah, for £200 it will be interesting to see if it does attract any bidders,

Very cool to see you got some paperwork in regards the whole situation finally :) 

I love how make and Model are blank, that's how you know your dealing with the obscure :mrgreen:

I wonder if its worth calling them up and letting them know its a 3 Wheeler before they send out the V5 to you? (or if that might just be throwing one to many things into an already complicated situation) I think sadly my 3rd party tools update their databases on a monthly basis so I have not yet been able to check the Body type sadly, but maybe if you call them they might be confirm (as mentioned before seeing as it shows up as "2-Wheel" im a bit worried and also curious if someone has it down on the V5 as a "Motorcycle", or if it is properly down on the V5 as an "invalid vehicle" regardless of the wheel plan)

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I'm a bit conflicted about that. Not sure whether just to deal with whatever arrives or be pro-active. I think if I could actually speak to the person handling my case (yeah, right) I could sort it. But otherwise I think I'd be unlikely to be successful. Probably a do nothing situation.

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2 hours ago, egg said:

I'm a bit conflicted about that. Not sure whether just to deal with whatever arrives or be pro-active. I think if I could actually speak to the person handling my case (yeah, right) I could sort it. But otherwise I think I'd be unlikely to be successful. Probably a do nothing situation.

My suggestion would be to get the paperwork from the DVLA in your hand, then review it and if you think it's worth doing so at that point, you could advise the DVLA of any changes you think need to be made. After all, until you get the V5, how would you know exactly what was on it and what may be wrong and what may need to be changed?

The key goal for now, surely, is to get the V5 issued to you? I'd advocate you focus on that and get that sorted, rather than adding in the potential for further delay...

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yay! the 3rd party websites I use to get info on vehicles that the DVLA checker does not provide, have updated their databases

and now XWC468F shows up and happily the body type is "invalid vehicle" so thats very good!

image.png.af7c40ada928cb7feb52fc3aa4cfb0ba.png

 

it looks like the "2-wheel" thing is either just an OCR fail somewhere or just general DVLA shenanigans

the important thing is the body type is correctly down as "invalid vehicle" 

 

(its interesting to note, that XWC468F in the MOT checker just comes back as "INVACAR" where as most other invacars come back as "INVACAR UNKNOWN" but its not like "UNKNOWN" is on the V5 either, as seen with REV's V5, the Model bit is just blank, its worth noting that WVX947 and a couple earlier Mk12's (PEV627D and NNO246C) also just shows up as "INVACAR" I wonder if those were brought back from the DVLA "dead" like XWC468F was?)

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I think I have said this before a few times but in the early 80s the DVLAs new shimmery computer system was creaking at the seams and they were rapidly running out of storage space for more cars, so records of vehicles which had not had either a change of owner or been taxed for many years were archived and removed from the main system. These were vehicles which would have had a computerised record and logbook issued.

Getting the record back when one of these vehicles comes back into use is a clerical matter. I don't believe that there is any automatic check done to see if a vehicle may be on the archived files if an application is made.

When dealing with enquires of this type address your envelope"Clerical Vehicle Enquiries" do it will actually go to the correct department.

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1 hour ago, DodgeRover said:

I think I have said this before a few times but in the early 80s the DVLAs new shimmery computer system was creaking at the seams and they were rapidly running out of storage space for more cars, so records of vehicles which had not had either a change of owner or been taxed for many years were archived and removed from the main system. These were vehicles which would have had a computerised record and logbook issued.

Getting the record back when one of these vehicles comes back into use is a clerical matter. I don't believe that there is any automatic check done to see if a vehicle may be on the archived files if an application is made.

When dealing with enquires of this type address your envelope"Clerical Vehicle Enquiries" do it will actually go to the correct department.

interesting, I recall reading something like that before :) I found your post here https://autoshite.com/topic/34488-invacar-mk12-no-v5-yet-happier-with-the-dvla/?do=findComment&comment=1745507 but Im pretty sure you or someone else also posted something like what you posted just now somewhere else on this forum as well as your post sounds very familiar 

I do wonder what the exact specific where that meant a vehicle would not get put onto the computer/removed from the computer, for example XWC468F is Tax due 1st Aug 1980, so its not like it was "tax due 1970" when they decided to remove it from the  system or not put it on the system because it had been inactive for 13 years in 1983, unless this "1st of Aug 1980" is just a "filler" thing in lue of any actual tax due information

 

I also know of this for whats its worth

Quote

 

The conversion of vehicle records – In 1974 DVLC began registering and licensing all new
vehicles and also began converting the old style log book (VE60) registered vehicles onto
the computer, a process which continued until 1983. By then, the Department was facing
grave problems associated with the forgery of old style log books and fraudulent claims to
attractive registration marks. The solution lay in calling a halt to the continuing registration
of old vehicles under their original mark.

 

The closure of the vehicle record – A major publicity campaign was launched regarding these
intentions, which included advertisements in the national newspapers. Reports also appeared in
specialist magazines and information was also circulated to all known vintage vehicle clubs and
societies. To be able to retain an original mark registration had to be effected by 30 November
1983. More than 200,000 motorists took advantage of this opportunity. After the closure of the
record vehicles were only able to reclaim their original registration marks if they could show that
they were rare or in some way historically significant.

 

 

 

from here

https://driveall.co.uk/files/4813/6897/5728/inf57.pdf

its interesting to read, does it mean if you had a car with a Buff Logbook, and never bothered to get a V5 for it, the vehicle would suddenly lose its registration number? or would they see your still taxing it or something and shove it into the computer anyway

its not very clear on that front

 

on the note of DVLA and long dead vehicles a few days ago I spoke to stuart about REV453R, and we realised that it never was taxed, in that it was taxed at the factory, but never made it past its first year

image.thumb.png.7d6597534f99d4e945d21b66f54aa0a8.png

 

Stuart and I wonder if REV453R was one of those mythical Model 70's with 0 miles on the clock at the heywood stores that have been mentioned in various articles but we never have had any solid proof of)

we wonder if REV453R was delivered and then just put away into storage right away

its worth noting that I know of RAR29R another one that looks to have not been taxed after delivery 

 

image.thumb.png.7bc39d6b46fb20d394e098620b9fb508.png

 

the question I ask is why do these show up on the DVLA if they did not even make it to their first year, where they "kept alive" by the DHSS somehow?

OR 

why are there Model 70 regs from the time period that DON'T show up on the DVLA if these "not even lasted a year" example do show up?

for example REV452R does not show up on the DVLA, yet if REV453R shows up despite having never even made it a year, so should REV452R should it not? even if it also never made it a year, so why does it not show up?

(its worth noting I think all Model 70 blocks will have reg numbers in them where the DVLA online checker says "Sorry m8 no info found!" obviously a lot more for the earlier reg blocks, but even the last blocks from 1978 will have "holes" in them so to speak) 

it would be quite interesting to see what the DVLA would have to say on a Model 70 whos reg does not show up on the online checker

especially as the post 1974 Model 70's would of all been registered on the DVLCs centralised system and I think issued with computerized logbooks or what have you since the get go right?

(I should have REV453R and RAR29R run by my HPI guy and see if they have a scrapped marker and if so when was it issued?)

 

 

another one I wonder about is LPD806D, the Hammond AC Acedes Mk11 Model 57, it was part of 14 Model 57's that were in storage at haywood at the time, that where being disposed of, and around about this time the cry for some invalid vehicles to be donated to museums was made, hence why there are a good number of Model 57's found in museums these days 

image.thumb.png.732e7ad15673f6045946cd7360c40bd3.png

anyways its very interesting to note a similar 1980 tax due like XWC

I wonder if LPD806D was not on the DVLA computer system at the time, and then when the DHSS transferred ownership of it to the hammond collection, it got "woken up" again like XWC468F, especially as 897PE was part of those 14, which was sadly scrapped rather then saved and does not show up on the DVLA, but what if the DHSS suddenly had to issue that car again or did donate it to a museum...

its also interesting to note that despite LPD806D being untaxed for So long, I can (well could before they broke) pull its chassis number with my public tools

the same goes for a number of other museum Invalid vehicles like PEV627D and DPD778J both of which again not been taxed for Many years yet I can pull their chassis numbers no problem!

 

 

side note I showed Simon of the ICR where the Chassis plate of an Electric AC Model 64 is, he owns "MOJ416" (false plate) but he did not know the chassis number nor where the chassis plate was, so I showed him where it is :)

and so he sent me a picture of it and much to my surprise it says Model 64 Mk5!

it was though until that picture, Mk4A was the highest revision of the Model 64

I do wonder if the AC Model 64 Mk5 has has parallelogram front suspension rather then C tube front suspension, much like how the Invacar Mk12 was fitted with it for the Mk12E

its also worth noting that during my talking with stuart I happened to accidently have reminded him that the AC Acedes Mk14 Model 67 does not have Parallelogram front suspension but actually has C tube type front suspension, and as such he was able to edit his big book draft and correct that mistake (he apparently wrote the Model 67 section of the book many years ago and new info has come to light since then, so when he revisited the section to answer a question I had asked, he spotted the mistake, you can actually see the mistake in the Small book as I call it where on the Invacar Mk12 page it says "while the 12E of April 1969 was fitted with the new Parallelogram front suspension of the AC Acedes Mk14" )

although its worth noting that sadly Stuart has only seen 1 Mk14 up close, so its unknown if all Mk14's had C tube suspension or that or if for some weird reason this 1 Mk14 stuart did see was fitted with older type suspension, or I also wonder if on the Mk14A one of the changes with the "A" was the fitting of parallelogram front suspension 

speaking of chassis plate madness its worth noting that the youngest AC Acedes Model 57 Stuart knows of apparently says "AC Acedes Mk18" on the chassis plate, Mk18! go figure that one out!

when discussing the suspension stuff with stuart I said I wonder if the Mk18 has parallelogram front suspension to which stuart said thats a good thought! but that sadly he never looked under the front service cover of that one, so that remains a mystery

i'm all the more eager to see what the spare parts book has listed in it in terms of the different invalid vehicles it covers (I know it covers a wide range of vehicles, so it might give us some info on the whole suspension thing, and what was different between the Mk14 and Mk14A for example)

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If a change of owner occurred then it would remain on the computer system the tax due date wouldn't be updated. Some of my trials bikes are like this with tax due dates going way back.

In the 80s if you attempted to tax a vehicle with a buff logbook at the post office you were told they could no longer do it and you need to get a new style logbook at the DVLA local office.

I suspect in the run up to the cut off for change over if you presented a buff log book at the post office they would send it off for replacement for you. In those days you needed to take in an insurance certificate, MOT if applicable and the logbook, or you had to fill in a lost logbook form.

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On 9/21/2019 at 6:28 PM, richardmorris said:

I must admit that I find all this history chasing and dvlc antics far more interesting than I probably should.

As an aside I did a mot history check on a Bristol outside work this week which came back as a “Bristol Unknown “.

happy to see im not alone :) 

I always like and quite enjoy trying to figure out things when there's mystery's or an unknown esp if it involves my hobbies! I also know in this case the DVLA stuff will benefit not just Invacars but any vintage car that someones bringing back from the dead :) 

on the Unkown front, i think its a left over from an earlier incarnation of the System, in that at some point in the past, any vehicle with no Model info had "Unknown" put there by the system software, but then at some point the system software must of been upgraded/changed and stopped doing that so vehicles that are added to the online database later on, that dont have any Model info on the V5, will just return nothing for the Model header (as mentioned it just says Unknown in the MOT checker, it does not say "UNKNOWN" on the V5, for REV at least!)

heres REV

image.thumb.png.e68753ed01fc67622a3c6545ce6c8bf5.png

and heres XWC

 

image.thumb.png.936f5513378ee284af1ebdc6db255e8f.png

which is what makes some of the other Invalid vehicles that dont say Unknown all the more interesting as it may indicate they were added to the database later then the rest where, indicating that maybe they were added to the online database from the DVLA's physical archives like XWC was, rather then added to the system in the 1970's/1980s when it was happening wholesale

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2 hours ago, groovylee said:

My Ranger has 'unknown' unknown' as make and model. on an age related plate too.

 

i could never understand that one lol

if you give me the plate I could try and figure it out :)

I cant say I have ever seen "unknown" for "Vehicle Make" on the DVLA checker

closest I have seen is 3 vehicles down as "INVALID" WNO55F, UPH163S and UPH170S the later 2 are Model 70's while im pretty sure WNO55F is just some sort of Moped (but I have not been able to pull its body type to check that for sure)

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