Garden Shed

[Kiltox]

Be interesting if pattern parts become a thing - at the moment replacing an instrument cluster isn’t viable unless you’re using one from a scrapper

[SiC]

Software, well that'll cost pennies once and then even less to rejig for each new model.

 

Software cost pennies to develop?! Software is by far the biggest cost in developing the majority of electronic products. Especially in safety critical applications like automotive, medical, military and aerospace where the paper trail required is huge. Yes if well written it can have a lot of reuse, but to get that it takes an awful lot of time and effort.

[Kiltox]

Bloody developers

 

[cort16]

It costs a lot to develop but the cost per unit will be minimal in the grand scheme of things . I noticed the heater controls on my Kia now have no temp displayed next to them it displays it on the central touch screen . How much did deleting that save in a bazillion Kia’s made world wide. Also the Kia has no CD player . It took me about 3 months to notice.

[cort16]

The lcd screen on new BMW’s is probably driven off a dynamo attached to sprocket on the timing chain .

[SierraMikeHotel]

I'm going to guess Pillock meant pennies per unit.

 

Who'd want a CD player in a new car? They're massively inconvenient.

 

I'd want a USB or SD slot and nothing else thanks. They've *got* to be both cheaper and better - no moving parts and many hours of music without having to take your eyes off the road to change media.

[cort16]

I’ve got apple car play when I plug my phone in that’s all I really need .

[Noel Tidybeard]

Since having cars with (working) climate control and air conditioning, I've never had to put on the front air or rear defrost while driving. I've only ever had to put them on at the start of a journey then once clear, just hit the auto button. Actually most modern cars will automatically put on the rear + wing mirror defrost if it's low temperatures outside - even if it doesn't light up indicators to tell you this.

 

ah yes your spaceship was the diseasel wasnt it- HRW on to load altemator to load engine to make it warm up faster

[Pillock]

Yeah, pennies per unit.... BMW sold 1.1 million cars in Europe and USA in 2017, and a similar number in 2016 and 2015. Naturally a screen won't be in every single vehicle, but the software would definitely be a developed once, reused many times sort of thing... if I get in a 3/4/5 series, or an X1/X3/X5 I see very similar iDrive stuff that works a bit differently but definitely shares lots of code. It's certainly not going to be as costly as the screen itself especially when a decent amount of code such as the mapping software, USB storage etc will be either open source or bought in.

 

There's also far more reuse available if it's an entirely software solution... you can literally fit the same screen across every single model in your range whether it's a 5000rpm diesel or a 8000rpm petrol. Flogging eco cars to companies? Spec it with MPG gizmos and little flowers that light up. Selling a trackday weapon? Uplaod the software that has shift lights and g-force graphs. A manufacturer currently has to produce/buy and stock a dozen variants of an instrument cluster across one range... that can't be cheap.

[loserone]

In a modern I couldn't care less about the screen, but if it gets an HUD like the one on the Renault Talisman it's about the only major improvement in driver information technology I've experienced

[SierraMikeHotel]

I like a digi dash in the style of a late naughties Civic... but I can't stand some recent cars which look like they have an ipad just stuck to the windscreen.

 

I was in a 2 or 3 year old A class recently and the infotainment system looks like its a halfords bought afterthought_28a2973.jpg

 

Agreed, our NewMerc looks like this and it does look like an afterthought.  However it was clearly a deliberate design decision that you and I happen to dislike - they could have put the screen anywhere.

[lesapandre]

Not for me. But then i get annoyed when there is no volt meter, no i feel i am not the target market for an ipad on wheels.

Got me thinking - out on my bike. These smartphone/tablet dashes are giving people what they are maybe familiar with at home so a sales ploy - once you are in the showroom sitting in the vehicle. I'd wonder they are recessed enough to avoid reflections. All my 80's cars have deep cowls with concave covers which work well. Are, lit from the side, analogue instruments easier on the eye and brain than these lit screens, even if you can dim them? I don't know but they seem interesting - but I wonder about how long lived. Average Apple computer and iphone life...5 years or am I wrong?

[drivewaymyway]

What happened to simple and uncluttered ??  I hate new cars and I hate technology as most of it is change for change sake, when I learn something I decide whether I use it, not have to relearn 'updates'.... I find LED lights make my eyes hurt, the light is too bright and intense, dials don't have that problem. Heater / radio controls should be logical and clear not tiny dials or digits that can't be seen when you need them. too much information is the same as too much light, 99% of the time it's not needed, speed, fuel and a clock is all you need so why all the other stuff ? I'm a keep it simple and there's less to go wrong type of bloke, shiny / digital appeals to simpletons that are easily impressed and part with big money for cheap tat ( no offence ).. I don't like error codes and ECU's .. I'm a dinosaur that burns dino juice.. The thing with technology is the likely hood of information being abused / stored / sold on for profit.. ( I know I'm using the internet right now ).. Who says this information will not be used against you some time in the future ? Charging for the roads by the mile or sending speeding fines based on your speedo readings ? I don't like just accepting things, Government can't be trusted and neither can Corporates..

 

  Sorry, these digital dash things just don't appeal, even the older ones, I had the pleasure of being a Fiat mechanic back in the 80's and Tipo's had shocking dash, totally unreadable just like the Ren-ough ones..

 

  Very sorry to bring the mood down on this one and to bang on about conspiracy etc but I am very worried about the future, we're aaall DOOOMED !!

[Parky]

We’ll just have docks for our phones soon. Pop on the phone and swipe according to what info you need, speed, fuel, temperature, tyre pressure etc. Why not, we are all walking about with a touchscreen in our pockets anyway.

 

May not work on Nokia 3210’s, on those the oil pressure appears as a game of snake.

[Tamworthbay]

Not for me. There is a reason that analogue gauges have lasted so,long, it’s because the brain can take in enough infor from a quick glance at an analogue gauge in a way they can’t with digital. After all it doesn’t matter if you are doing 29 or 30mph so precision isn’t needed. Some modern dashboards have such stupid levels on information that I don’t think they help a drivers concentration. Give people the info they need but don’t overload them, there is a reason that most prospective pilots fail the instruments tests at least once after all. And on top of that I don’t like the look of them, this aspect is personal but they just look tacky to me,

[SiC]

Yeah, pennies per unit.... BMW sold 1.1 million cars in Europe and USA in 2017, and a similar number in 2016 and 2015. Naturally a screen won't be in every single vehicle, but the software would definitely be a developed once, reused many times sort of thing... if I get in a 3/4/5 series, or an X1/X3/X5 I see very similar iDrive stuff that works a bit differently but definitely shares lots of code. It's certainly not going to be as costly as the screen itself especially when a decent amount of code such as the mapping software, USB storage etc will be either open source or bought in.

 

There's also far more reuse available if it's an entirely software solution... you can literally fit the same screen across every single model in your range whether it's a 5000rpm diesel or a 8000rpm petrol. Flogging eco cars to companies? Spec it with MPG gizmos and little flowers that light up. Selling a trackday weapon? Uplaod the software that has shift lights and g-force graphs. A manufacturer currently has to produce/buy and stock a dozen variants of an instrument cluster across one range... that can't be cheap.

Developing the software in a hardware product isn't simply a couple of code monkeys on seats tapping away to produce code. A piece of software requires a large amount of people in greatly varying skills sets to produce. Software is only a section of what makes a product. There is a whole complex intertwined web of things that make up that software and make it work. You can't cost up software as one "thing", there is far more to what makes it up as a whole than just code on a screen. It's really not like development for a desktop PC that runs on standard pieces of hardware which many people think of what all software is.

 

Developing hardware solutions for these sort of applications requires large teams. From software engineers to UX designers, from system architects to verification engineers, from integration engineers to acoustic engineers, from algorithm developers to security analysts, from project, program & product owners to electronic engineers, etc - I could go on.

 

A lot of the visual interfaces that you interact with yes will use open source software, however that is only a small part of software running on a modern car. Vast majority of it has been developed over many years. Most open source software is simply not of high enough quality to achieve the grade required for automotive qualification - especially at ASIL level D.

 

It's not just by the big named manufacturers who are developing the systems to go in their products. There is a whole army of tiered suppliers. The barrier to entry is especially high. As a readily open example, you only have to look at even ARM struggling to get market penetration with their Cortex-R based cores. When well proven, fully verified designs like the Infineon Tricore are around, it's hard for others to muscle in - even when they're the size of ARM. Even that single processor line alone has hundreds of engineers working on it. Highly specialist work commanding a high salary using software tools that cost tens of thousands per seat per month alone. Then on top a whole structure to support that team. Just for one small bit of silicon on a board.

 

The VW scandal was especially interesting as it put into public domain how many software subsystems in vehicles are developed. In the case of the diesel ECUs, Bosch predominantly produced the core engine software. On top of this is a number of customisations layered on top of this to interact with the other subsystems in the car and also adapted to suit the particular needs of a manufacturer. This customisation and integration is a lot of work.

 

Not all do this however and some manufacturers keep it in house. One notable example is the Toyota hybrid system. Again another scandal brought this into the open on how their systems are structured. This was the accelerator jamming fault. A Google will bring up numerous papers and assesments done on the causes of this. But also how their system is architected.

 

That's just one system in a vehicle of many. To provide another example - airbag controllers. A large amount of development goes into accurate positioning of sensors, force assesments, simulation & testing of airbag deployment and such like. These are all different for a different vehicle design. It might not be just software engineers sat on seats however it has a whole army of people working away to make it work. All part of making a piece of software do what it's supposed to do. Thid builds up the cost of developing a software solution.

 

In comparison, thanks to mass production of consumer electronic devices it has created a whole commodity market of parts. Thus actual hardware and their associated build costs are by comparison a lot lower to developing the product.

 

It's no surprise that manufacturers are heavily platform based nowadays. Platforms that are shared between other manufacturers. No doubt because these platforms cost billions to develop. Actual build costs are quite low, it's the amortization of development and tooling costs that make up a large proportion. Remember most automotive manufacturers profit margins are well under 10% - many under 5%. R&D make up a large proportion of this. Don't forget that a lot of the costs of production will be made up by the cost of parts from tiered suppliers - who will also have amortalised their costs into part costs. Thus single manufacturer R&D spends don't tell all the costs involved in developing a modern car.

 

Most people simply do not realise the amount of work, man hours and costs that go into producing our modern world full of electronic gadgets. Work done by those with specialist knowledge and specialist skills.

 

A large proportion of my friends and acquaintances work in software (myself included) for many different types of industries. Not only (of course) automotive but also consumer, AI, metrology, banking and aviation. Most of us are software engineers of some type, but have specialist skills associated with it. Software development being our toolbox, our specialist skills being what we actually do with those tools.

[mat_the_cat]

The reduction in physical switches is a bugbear for me, that you can operate by feel quickly and easily, without taking your eyes off the road. The idea of major functions on a touchscreen, where you have to look at it to see where to touch (even worse if it's in a menu), and to see whether your press has been detected, strikes me as being a step backwards in safety.

I was reading that the Tesla Model 3 even has a glovebox operated by the touchscreen!

[Pillock]

So.... not pennies then?

[cort16]

I dunno I still think the savings you make on hardware balance the cost of software development. You're not starting from scratch any more there's so many frameworks to base things on like all software it's an evolution. It's part of the game of building cars now it's just an associated cost, which will be off set somewhere els.  In the case of BMW the timing chain tensioners.

[Tayne]

For those people questioning glare, this works perfectly well in bright sunlight.

 

[cort16]

I think I depend how the screens are positioned in the car. I've seen a couple of reviews of this new Audi setup and reflections on the screens have been mentioned. Also the lack of feel makes it harder to find the controls without looking down as there's no touch reference.

 

 

[SiC]

I dunno I still think the savings you make on hardware balance the cost of software development. You're not starting from scratch any more there's so many frameworks to base things on like all software it's an evolution. It's part of the game of building cars now it's just an associated cost, which will be off set somewhere els. In the case of BMW the timing chain tensioners.

Oh yeah that will be the end game for them for sure. Always often is the case that stuff gets moved into software as much as possible to reduce the hardware cost longer term. However right now, the development costs for digital dashes are significant. Where as conventional dashes on the other hand are well proven and understood solutions for automotive manufacturers. Once the development costs are paid back over many years, they'll become more common place. But then likely another technology will come in to replace the dashboard as it is now. Or we'll see continued development over time with OTA updates to bring new features - a la Tesla. Tesla (especially with their model 3) have gone down the route with less displays but larger. This in turn integrates more functionality possible. How that development will be paid for depends on the revenue model of the car manufacturers.

 

Possibly we could get higher recycling rates of cars at shorter intervals? Stuff like battery packs, drivetrain and power systems are going to be very long lasting - so why not recycle/refurbish that and stick it in a new body? A new body that has the latest processor and interior fashion for the shiniest dash.

 

Dacia are a great example of what it costs to make a car without the huge development costs associated on more modern technology cars. The reason it can be made for so little is that it's reusing well proven older technology and tooling - parts bin stuff developed and paid for over a decade ago. Many of the electronic units are from the Clio III era - developed well over 12+ years ago. Thus the development costs is limited to the body shell and associated parts. Then of course sales & marketing costs on top.

[Parky]

Some good points from folk lamenting the potential end of the analogue dial.

 

If anyone has watched Air Crash Investigation as avidly as me you will know that sometimes things go wrong and pilots seem to have no idea what’s happening. This is caused by lack of instant knowledge in that they are glancing around a glass cockpit full of digital readouts trying to extrapolate information as to what a plane is doing in an emergency situation, where often simpler needle gauges give them that info more easily. Not saying you are ever likely to stall your diesel mondeo at 36000 but sometimes all you need is to see the needle. I know on my daily that when both the red needles are sitting dead horizontal I am doing 50mph. Handy in motorway roadworks as I don’t even need to see the numbers.

 

Analogues aren’t always better though, look at the Swiss chrono style dash on a Lexus IS200 and you will realise that sometimes even analogue dials jumbled together aren’t that easy to read

[Cavcraft]

For those people questioning glare, this works perfectly well in bright sunlight.

 

127C1FAF-2C17-4EED-952E-D8585479C40B.jpeg

 

That's because everybody's eyes will have been burnt out by that minging interior.

[sierraman]

I don’t mind so long as the interior doesn’t look like something from the Jetsons.

[Asimo]

Have some eye-bleach.

 

[Pillock]

Aaaah, the days when Porsche were in need of a dashboard on a Friday afternoon so just nabbed the VW 1303 one and went to the pub.

[sierraman]

I like to feel comfortable in a car. I’m very much of the Jaguar X300 school of interior design. I hate this stuff where all the dash looks like a fucking bombs gone off with screens sticking out of the dash and wierd oblique shapes shooting out of every direction. And those cars where you get chairs. Not seats. Chairs you sit on, not in.

[Kiltox]

If I could justify various lease cars I am sure I would love the LCD dash

 

A Porsche Boxster S and BMW X5 are circa 600 pcm each. Even though that Boxster is a 4 pot.

 

I can’t do it even though I can afford to. I pay around £550 for insurance, storage and tax on my entire fleet including

The incoming X5.

 

Not to say anyone shouldn’t.

[Tayne]

If anyone has watched Air Crash Investigation as avidly as me you will know that sometimes things go wrong and pilots seem to have no idea what’s happening. This is caused by lack of instant knowledge in that they are glancing around a glass cockpit full of digital readouts trying to extrapolate information as to what a plane is doing in an emergency situation, where often simpler needle gauges give them that info more easily. 

 

 

 

Is this an official conclusion of the air accident reports, or just your own opinion?