Project BX17RD - the further adventures of PBO

[Three Speed]

Way back in the 80s I was a development engineer at Lucas CAV who provided the fuel system for these things - if not them it would be Rotodiesel who were the French part of the company. I never worked on anything for indirect injected engines with their DPA / DPC pumps but I do remember that there was some feature that increased fuelling on cold starts. So there must be something that detects temperature and something that responds to it. I don’t recall what what either of those things would actually be. I remember some debate about how they actually helped start a cold engine. Opinions differed. Some thought it was “more fuel = more chance of something igniting” whilst others thought it was that the excess fuel ran down the cylinder walls and helped the cold rings seal and improve compression.

Whatever the truth it did seem to be effective so I think it’s worth a look.

Whilst I never worked on IDI systems I did own a CX2500D at the time which was a pig to start when the glow plug connections were loose or the plugs were dud. To the extent that the starter motor finally gave up and sprayed its solder all over the inside of its case.

Everyone should experience bump starting a hydraulic Citroen at least once.

 

[stuboy]

3 hours ago, vulgalour said:

just a light that comes on to tell you it's f****d.

and whilst waiting for recovery look in the local free ads for next mota

[Tadhg Tiogar]

1 hour ago, Three Speed said:

....Everyone should experience bump starting a hydraulic Citroen at least once.

My priority is getting hold of an unobtainable coolant hose. The bump start can wait.

[vulgalour]

Tested the battery and it's holding a healthy amount of voltage and hasn't dropped overnight, so that's good, battery ruled out of the potential issue equation. I then used darrenh 's instructions here forum.retro-rides.org/post/2257563 to test the glowplugs and all of them read 000 on the multimeter, which I assume is what we want. I also read the output for voltage which is 9.5-8.5 on the glowplugs when they're on though I'm not sure if that actually means anything. The glowplug timer relay is working I think, I tested this by testing the voltage on the glowplugs and listening for the relay going off, when it did the voltage disappeared. I assume that means the relay is providing power to the glowplugs for the set period and then not when they've heated up, which is what we want. Good. Progress. Battery, glowplug relay, and glowplugs seemingly ruled out of the equation. I put the glowplugs back in, dropped three of the wire retaining nuts and couldn't find them because the engine ate them, was very glad I put the ones from the old glowplugs in the ashtray as a result, and put it all back together.

Car started fine.

Whut? Okay, look at the engine and see what's different.

Can you see what I forgot to reinstall? Maybe this picture will help.

For some reason, the cold air pipe makes it harder for the car to start and I have no idea why. I've checked the hose and the plastic elbow and both are completely clear of blockages or damage but, reliably, if I remove that hose the car starts better and if I fit it, the car has a harder time of starting and that makes no sense I can think of. I've left the hose in the boot for now and we'll see if it was coincidental or if that's actually the fix, if it is the fix then great but I'm a bit puzzled by that one.

[dean36014]

Well that's really weird. I assume the foam isn't breaking up inside and blocking the air filter? 

[vulgalour]

Nope, foam is lovely and foamy and staying where it should.  I'm very confused by this.

[dean36014]

Have you changed the air filter at all? Maybe it's restricting air flow a bit. The problem without that air trunk is the intake noise is horrendous.

[vulgalour]

I haven't done the air filter.  Agreed, the intake noise is a bit much without the pipe so it's not ideal.  Interestingly, if I put the pipe back on when the car is running it makes no difference to how it runs other than quietening it down, but if I leave it on and try and start the car, it doesn't like it.  It must be coincidental, it can't be the actual problem with starting.

[vulgalour]

Smol update!

I had to move the BX, it's below freezing and the car is likewise quite cold.  Am I going to experience the eternal churn of disappointment?  Nope!  Double cycle of the glowplugs, a little bit of throttle to help it along and boom, car started more willingly than it has on milder days since the problem appeared.  Perhaps it wasn't coincidental with that cold air intake pipe then.

[vulgalour]

Small progress update on the BX.  I had to put the cold air pipe back on, it was just unbearable with it off.  I found that if I used half throttle when I started the car, it counteracted the issue the pipe was causing.  Today, the hose I ordered arrived so we could do a bubble check.

Upshot of this is there appears to be no bubbles.  The car also seemed to start more willingly so perhaps the hoses that were on had unseen issues.  If this doesn't sort it, I've been offered loan of a spill tester to find out if it's an injector issue.  I'll give it another check and inspection tomorrow when it's stone cold so we can see if bubbles appear when the car is cold since I could only test it when hot today.

[vulgalour]

The starting problem has come back, but not as badly, so injector spill test is next, when I get chance.

The only other issue is the water ingress.  I did another round of sealing potential points on the outside of the inner arch and that hasn't cured it. I know it's coming in from the outside of the car and I know it's not coming in through the inner arch, so it's probably coming in under the washer bottle.  Or it's coming in through the roof rails, down the A-pillar, and then appearing at the first point it can find to get into the car.  It's proving difficult to locate because all the areas on the outside of where the water appears inside the car can be dry and the water will still get in.  I know it's not screenwash or coolant, it's definitely fresh water runoff that's coming in, and it's barely even a dribble so without the carpet in the driver's footwell it dries out really fast.

I've also got mystery water ingress in the boot.  I've been getting a damp spot in the middle of the carpet in the boot, and I can't figure that one out at all since there's no holes or rust or drain points or anything there that would cause it.  Other times the driver's side storage cubby carpet is damp, but only as damp as a well wringed out dishcloth.  If I hose the rear arches and the windows and such no water leaks through so I don't think it's a seam that's gone, it's just like the water *appears*.  Dries out very quickly too, so by the time you've actually investigated it, the moisture is usually gone.

I hate when you can see the symptoms and not locate the cause.

[barrett]

Sounds terminal mate. £150 2nite to take it off your hands

[vulgalour]

Please hold while we transfer you to our Internet Purchasing Team: @Cavcraft

[Tadhg Tiogar]

Useful BX reference resource?

[vulgalour]

I've used that a few times, it's quite good.

[vulgalour]

On the 21st of December, the BX and I undertook the 300 mile drive down to the new house in Kent.  It was a surprisingly uneventful trip, with the BX even choosing to start with absolutely no drama on a somewhat chilly morning.  Smooth running roads and surprisingly clement weather for the entire run meant progress was steady up until about the last 50 miles when the weather changed, becoming intermittently foggy and rainy.  Arriving at the new house I felt a little tired from the long drive but not uncomfortable and we quickly set to unloading the car to get the more fragile things in the house.

Internet was connected today, the 2nd of January, and in the last two weeks or so, the BX has got rid of its starting difficulties for no obvious reason.  I assume the long run helped clear things through because since arriving here, the car has only exhibited the starting difficulty once so I'm not entirely sure what the issue is there.

It turns out that when I had time to investigate it, the rear reflective panel was indeed filling up with water.  The foam sheet I used wasn't the problem, the problem turned out to be that I hadn't put any drain holes in so the panel would fill up until it found a way out through the screw holes that hold it to the tailgate.  After tipping out the rainwater, I added three drainholes in the bottom of the foam and now it doesn't fill up with water and the rear screen thus far has stayed clear of condensation.

At the front, the water ingress into the driver's footwell looked to be caused by a blanking plug on the inner wing behind the washer bottle.  I removed what loose sealant I could, cleaned it up as best I was able, and resealed it all. So far, the footwell has stayed dry even after a night's rain so I'm hopeful that this is cured and I'll soon be able to reinstall the carpet again.

Last thing of note is the MoT that's due at the end of this month.  I've got a useful shortlist of garages to try out locally so hopefully we'll get through that with minimal fuss.  Certainly, I'm not expecting any drama, the car is in better shape now than at its last MoT and I've barely really done any miles since then.  This also marks just about 1 year of ownership, which has flown by, this car has been, and continues to be, a joy to own.

[stuboy]

were in kent you moved too vulg?

[Noel Tidybeard]

is the cable subtly arrowed below tight when engine cold- iirc that is cold start enrichment, which if not working would fit with the adding a bit of pedal improving matters

[vulgalour]

@Noel Tidybeard That particular cable is tight when cold, yes.  I wonder if it's just the sort of driving I've been doing that's causing it, diesels don't really thrive on short hops and with the exception of the house move that's really all I've been doing.  Certainly, the long run on the motorway cured the problem completely for a time so perhaps I just need to drive it more... now there's a first world problem.

@stuboy Allington.  Seems a fairly quiet place, lots of oldies and so far I've only encountered one wayward Jazz.

----

It doesn't seem to want to be dry here.  I never notice it raining but clearly it is.  Not ideal for a car that likes to let a bit of water in really.  Currently, my parking situation is a little bit tucked down the side of the garage where the previous owners kept their caravan.  Until we remove a chunk of hedge so we have full access to the dropped curb again, it'll have to do, but hedge removal is a pretty hefty job and can wait a little bit while we work through the other house move stuff.

Building carports is a way off too, for the same reason, though that is the short term measure.  I'll come back to this in a mo.  Usefully, since cleaning the car up and doing the various repair works I had a good clean datum point to see where water was coming in and the trickle has been coming in steadily for long enough now that it's left some nice orange telltales.

Someone has been here before trying to cure this water leak, both sides, and honestly it's a tricky one to unpick without removing the dashboard.  I'm pretty sure the leak is directly related to the previous windscreen surround repairs and the A pillar door hinge repair since it's coming from that sort of area.  The difficulty is figuring how the water is getting into the area it's leaking out of into the car.  I know it's all sealed up from the outside on the inner wing because I did all that, and there's no obvious ingress from the door hinge repair either.  The windscreen, so far as I can tell when I removed various trims, isn't letting water in or suffering from rot either.  The only place I could find anything was behind the washer bottle in the scuttle area.  There was some loose sealant in this area that I dug out and daubed fresh on when things dried out and this drastically reduced how much water was getting in so I suspect that's the right sort of area.  It's not 100% sealed yet, when the weather is better I want to really dig into this area and eliminate any holes and rot that might still be hiding, it's probably a fairly small repair that's required along with a lot of time to dismantle everything to get to it, so probably not a fun job.

On the plus side, since adding drain holes to the rear reflector panel the boot is staying properly dry now and the rear screen hasn't fogged up excessively so I'm cautiously optimistic I've sorted that out.  The other job today was clearing some rubble from the end of the parking area in part to get the car back a bit further and test for Princess space, and in part to show just how tight the garage is here.  You can literally get the BX (or the Princess, they're about the same size) in the garage and nothing else, which is honestly a bit disappointing.

Ah well, jobs for future days.  The important thing is I've got off-road parking for the cars and a garage that can be used as a little workshop in the meantime.  The plan is to build a carport on each side of the garage and replace the astroturf with some hard surface.  That will keep the worst of the weather off and, as I understand it, not land us foul of any planning permissions since car ports are regarded as 'temporary structures'.  Then in a year or three we can look at building a really fancy garage and proper hard standing to smarten everything up and increase practical working and storage space.  I'm happy enough for now.

[stuboy]

12 minutes ago, vulgalour said:

Allington.  Seems a fairly quiet place, lots of oldies and so far I've only encountered one wayward Jazz.

ah yes north of maidstone

[vulgalour]

I don't know if it's a Kent thing, or just an Allington thing, but I'm really hoping there's more weather options than Very Damp and Far Too Hot, because I'm not keen on either.

[Noel Tidybeard]

you must leave the astroturf, a princess cant sleep on a hard bed! ?

[GrumpiusMaximus]

2 hours ago, vulgalour said:

I don't know if it's a Kent thing, or just an Allington thing, but I'm really hoping there's more weather options than Very Damp and Far Too Hot, because I'm not keen on either.

You're not quite in the 'Fog Belt' (as I dubbed it).  I used to live in Charing Heath and going along the M20 through Harrietsham, etc. was permanently fog for about 4 months of the year.  There are some nice days.  Usually when you've got something else booked to do indoors.

[vulgalour]

Ah yes, I'm familiar with that bit of the M20.  Sometimes the fog was really quite bad and you actually genuinely had to use the foglights.  Apart from Executive German Cars, which are apparently fitted with a special fog mode allowing you to barrel along as fast as you want without consequence.

[Zelandeth]

Just make sure to check your local planning regs, how they handle stuff like that seems to vary from authority to authority.

Here they require full planning consent for any structure which extends beyond the original frontage of the house - irrespective of whether it's attached to an existing shed, garage etc.  Side or back of the house, you can do what you like - but if it's out front (where our drive is), you need permission...and they're apparently ridiculously hot on enforcement around here too.

Granted... I've also had hassle from the council here for "unauthorized litter picking" for fishing crap out of my hedge while standing on the public footway...so MK council are clearly utterly insane, so it's probably not a great comparison!

[Noel Tidybeard]

6 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

Granted... I've also had hassle from the council here for "unauthorized litter picking" for fishing crap out of my hedge while standing on the public footway...so MK council are clearly utterly insane, so it's probably not a great comparison!

reply to the cooncil about unauthorised use of your hedge as litter bin!

[chodweaver]

45 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

"Just make sure to check your local planning regs, how they handle stuff like that seems to vary from authority to authority.

Here they require full planning consent for any structure which extends beyond the original frontage of the house -"

I believe that's fairly standard - the original building establishes the 'building line' and thou shalt not build anything in front of it.

 

"I've also had hassle from the council here for "unauthorized litter picking" for fishing crap out of my hedge while standing on the public footway."

WTAF! What boils my piss is the combination of older residents who still have hedges at the front of their gardens (and much preferable to a concrete sectional wall they are, too) and the local scrotes that believe any hedge is a suitable receptacle for their discarded Red Bull and Carling cans and their spawn's Capri Sun and Haribo packaging. Same as the local woods are for their old sofas, mattresses and push chairs.

MK council evidently want a good shoeing for that sort of attitude. Grrr.

[vulgalour]

I'll be double-checking before any money is spent, for sure.  That said, there's quite a few houses locally with odd extensions and car ports and such so I imagine the local Council are less insane than Milton Keynes.  That said, it's probably not difficult to be less insane than MK Council.

[Zelandeth]

On 1/3/2020 at 4:28 PM, chodweaver said:

WTAF! What boils my piss is the combination of older residents who still have hedges at the front of their gardens (and much preferable to a concrete sectional wall they are, too) and the local scrotes that believe any hedge is a suitable receptacle for their discarded Red Bull and Carling cans and their spawn's Capri Sun and Haribo packaging. Same as the local woods are for their old sofas, mattresses and push chairs.

MK council evidently want a good shoeing for that sort of attitude. Grrr.

The rubbish is annoying in the extreme, however it's the drug paraphernalia which really grates.  Especially as the kids from round the corner insist in playing hide and seek in there (I couldn't care less about that, it's on the other side of a 6 foot fence).

General consensus seems to be "What do you expect?  You live in town."

Meh...the hedge is going later in the year and the fence will be getting pushed back to the highway boundary as I'm sick of cleaning up this nonsense.  It's another thing we inherited with the house, having been left to run wild by the previous owner - oh, and they're full of brambles.

[vulgalour]

The starting problem is back again.  However, this time I have some extra information to perhaps identify the issue.  I do now know what makes the issue worse since this problem has persisted long enough for me to collate some information.

- If it's 2C or below outside, the car will have trouble starting

- If it's damp outside, or actively raining, even if it's below 2C, the car usually has less trouble starting (I have no idea why this would be)

- cycling the glowplugs before attempting to start the car makes no difference

- Using a bit of throttle when starting helps only to half pedal. Use full pedal and it will struggle and die quicker.

- If the car is having a non-starting sort of a day, the colder it is the longer it takes.

- A long run at motorway speeds eliminates the starting problem for several days, regardless of temperature or humidity, and it will operate as a normal car

- Repeated short runs in a short period make the starting problem much worse, sometimes to the extent that even trying to start the car once warm will take a second attempt before it wants to go.

- A quarter of a tank of fresh fuel, or more, will eliminate the starting issue usually for a day, regardless of outside temperature etc.

- Some days, it just starts with no fuss, regardless of all the variables, as though there's no problem at all.

I'm still at a bit of a loss on this one.  I've gone through the fuel etc. to try and eliminate the usual suspects and everything appears to be operating as it should.  Sometimes there are bubbles in the fuel line sometimes there aren't, and the presence or absence of bubbles does not directly correlate to the difficulty or ease of starting the car.  The bubbles in the fuel line are only present when you turn the car off, at which point you see them returning down the hose (I fitted clear hose to see what's happening).  The glowplugs, which are new, tested fine with the multimeter and while I know new parts does not always equal success, it seems very unlikely those are the culprit.  Fuel consumption is normal, so the car doesn't seem to be running excessively lean or rich, and it doesn't smoke, so I assume that side of things is good too.

For now, I'm running the fuel tank as empty as I dare just in case there's some old fuel or something sloshing about in there that's perhaps causing an issue, it can help with petrol cars, I've no idea if it helps with diesels, and given that it always runs a bit better with fresh fuel in I'd say it can't do any harm.  Worst case it'll drag something through from the tank and block the fuel filter (which is clean and moderately new, I did check).