Project BX17RD - the further adventures of PBO

[vulgalour]

That's the hope I'm clinging to on this one.  Have ordered a rebuild kit so I can venture into the scary world of fiddling about with diesel pumps.

[junkyarddog]

One plus if you have to remove the injection pump for repair,you don't have to remove the timing belt,two bolts screw into the metal plate behind the pulley and hold it in position, the nut holding the pulley to the pump acts as a puller,so actually removes the pulley from the injection pump when it's undone.

Clever bit of design.

I had to remove my 205 pump as the front seal was leaking. 

This info may be of some help.

[vulgalour]

That does make things look slightly less scary.

[Cleon-Fonte]

That'll be the control lever shaft seal that's leaking, it's a common problem on VE pumps. Entirely possible to fix with the pump in situ like so. Change the pump cover seal whilst you're in there, everything you need is in this kit.

[vulgalour]

That is a very useful guide.  I've already ordered a kit, which has rather more seals and whatnot in it than the one linked, so hopefully it has the bits I need.

[Talbot]

On 5/6/2020 at 1:31 AM, vulgalour said:

My best guess is that it's the silver square-ish box to the bottom right of this image

Correct.  I was under the belief that all XUD engines had this up to about 1990, but evidently not.  The 1990 405 1769td I had definitely had one, as it was as porous as a colander and the reason I got the car cheap.

[vulgalour]

I hate this job.

I first attempted @Cleon-Fonte's useful looking suggestion and instructions for removing the top plate to just replace the throttle shaft o-ring.  While this did work, once I'd figured out which combination of tools was needed...

... There was something holding the plate on that I couldn't see, possibly just an o-ring since it had that sort of springy-rubbery feel to it.  Rather than risk breaking something, I opted to screw the top back on and remove the pump.  This is a much more involved proceedure.  It also means if other seals are damaged I can deal with them all in one go if just doing the top o-ring wasn't going to cut it and, given that I have a full seal kit, I might as well.  Next challenge was jacking the BX up when you can't get it running.  Fortunately there was just enough of a dip in the paving slabs where the jacking point is that I could get a jack under if the other half lifted the car as far as he could (which was about 2mm, cars are heavy!) and I could get it on an axle stand.  Jacking up the BX is one of the things I hate the most, there just aren't enough strong points on the car's structure to lift it that you can get a jack to when its sat on its arse.

Handbrake off, car in fifth, rotate the front driver's side wheel until the bolt holes in the end pulley line up with the holes in the injection pump mounting plate.  Then hope that you've actually got two M10 bolts (I did) and that your tools will fit in the gap (they did, but as you'll learn later this is not always the case with stupid French cars).  Thanks to @junkyarddog for providing really good pictures of what that looks like.  That done, mark the pump location against the mounting plate to ensure (hopefully) the timing doesn't get buggered up later.  Oh, I forgot to mention, make sure that when you remove the cambelt cover that you somehow jam it between the components in the gap and one bit of it snaps off, pinging into the heavens, never to be seen again.

Then disconnect the throttle cable, the other cable the name of which I've forgotten once you mark that to make sure you know where it goes, mark the two screw things on top of the pump for the throttle bracket thingy so you don't mess up that setting, disconnect the four injection lines, the bottom back one of which has separation anxiety and likes to hide behind the other pipes, disconnect the stop solenoid wire, and the battery at some point in these proceedings too, and then try and undo the three bolts holding the pump in place.  Go on, have a go, it's great, you'll love it.

You will not love it.  A spanner is the only tool that fits and if your hands are too big and/or don't dislocated, you can't actually get a tool on the bottom bolt that you can't see no matter how hard you try without removing the alternator.  Great.  At one point when trying to remove the alternator it was refusing so steadfastly to come out of its bracket that I thought I was going to have to remove the radiator to get purchase on the alternator... and then it popped out no drama because cars like to cause stress like that.

Then, you simply undo the bolt on the pulley you locked earlier with the two m10 bolts so that you can sImpLy ReMOvE the injector pump.  SIMPLY.  Grr.  Many swears later after finding the ONLY tool I had that would fit in the gap between the car body and the nut I needed to undo was a frigging ring spanner I had it undone.  Then I had to fight with that injector pipe that kept reconnecting itself, and then the pump which did not want to be separated from the car until all at once it did.  Magnetic screwdriver to the rescue to save the woodruff key that tried to join the cambelt cover fragment from earlier too.  I have highlighted the troublesome nut that I needed to remove the alternator for (I seriously have no idea how anyone does this with the alternator in situ) so you'll know what to look for when you do this job.

It's a big old thing this pump, leaves a massive hole in the engine bay when it's out.

Set it on the bench, checked the time and realised this had taken me nearly 3 hours!  That's absurd.

Now just psyching myself up with a bit of a sit down and a coffee before braving the internals of the pump so that I can start fitting nice new seals... and then the great joy of reinstalling the monstrosity.

[strangeangel]

You've certainly earned that brew!

 

[vulgalour]

For reference, took a snapshot of how the bracket is set on the top before removing it, this would allow me to get to the throttle spindle.

I'd already marked the pump position before removing it, as instructed in the manual and on fora variously.  The o-ring on the throttle spindle was quite loose and discoloured.  No particularly obvious signs of wear otherwise so I was moderately hopeful this was the cause of the air ingress given other symptoms presented as documented in recent posts.

figured out that was was stopping me removing the top plate while it was on the car was the throttle bracket assembly that bolts to the spindle, once you unbolt that, the spindle can be pushed out and the top plate lifted free.  I would have found this very difficult to do on the car since I dwasn't entirely sure what I was looking at even with instructions.  On the bench it was much easier to work out.  Happily got the top plate off and decided not to strip it down further than that since it looked a bit beyond my skill set so I kept myself to the comfort zone.  The top plate gasket did look fine but since I had a new one in the kit I'd bought, I decided to fit it.  The new seal doesn't seem to fit very well, perhaps there's a knack to it, perhaps it's a rubbish seal, I don't know.  I also had trouble finding which of the supplied o-rings was the correct one for the spindle, none of them seemed a better fit than what was already on there being either a shade too large or a shade too small.  I was beginning to have misgivings about this job.  Undeterred, I started reassembly.

I don't know why but it just felt wrong going back together.  I didn't force anything, I was very careful to make sure things went back together the way they came apart, as much as I could tell at any rate.  But it just felt... I don't know... off.  Gut feeling was that something was perhaps not properly aligned so I gently eased the top plate off again and discovered that the plastic piece that supports all the complicated little springs in the top of the pump had snapped.  I will reiterate, and no doubt some readers will ignore, that I used the absolute minimum force here, I hadn't even got the top plate bolts more than a couple of turns in, nothing was tight.

So that's buggered that.  I do not have the relevant skill to rebuild this and what should have been  simple o-ring replacement has now become a bit of a nightmare.  Not really sure how to fix this at this point.  The pump was fine apart from sucking air in, presumably through the top o-ring (I guess we'll never know for sure now) and nowit's broken and there's no point putting it back on the car.

 

@The Mighty Quinn yes, I marked the pump location relative to the mounting plate, as instructed many, many times over and over.  Yes, it's Bosch.  Fuel delivery is not the issue, it does that just fine.  I know it's a chore, but if you read back a few posts you'll be able to see what's been done and what hasn't, shouldn't take you too long to get up to speed.

[Jim Bell]

For this reason and many others, I've always just lived with throttle spindle pump seepages. 

I have the absolute fear of taking the lid off. 

Hope it can be fixed with a minimum of frustration and wailing man. And good on you for cracking on. You've got far more enterprise than me. 

[vulgalour]

I'd've lived with it if the car would idle, it'd got bad enough that you couldn't drive the car, otherwise I'd probably have never ventured in.

[Jimbob McGregor]

Now you’ve got the pump off and having issues, I’d recommend finding a local diesel specialist. The old-school sort, with all the kit to calibrate injectors and rebuild rotary pumps.

They should sort that in a jiffy, hopefully making full use of all your seals in the process. Hopefully not massively expensive too.

Don’t stress, it’ll get there.

[Jimbob McGregor]

Oh, and these just have a suction pump on the injection pump - no in-tank pumps required, nice and simple.

[vulgalour]

Right, I've figured out what I did after finding a useful resource with exploded diagrams.  It is part #68 on this diagram: https://injectionpumps.co.uk/interactive/interactive-bosch-ve-parts-diagram.htm and what I've broken is both the rod that holds the springs and the two pronged fork bit.  The reason I've managed to do that is I didn't seat the rod correctly on reassembly, which is why it felt wrong going back together, but by the time I realised that the parts are so delicate that I'd already broken them.  Lesson learned.

I'm not going to attempt this myself, I need to find a specialist to give it an overhaul and repair.  While I probably could DIY it, I'd rather quit while I'm ahead.

[strangeangel]

Liked for the fact that you've worked out what's wrong (and that you attempted it in the first place), not because it's broken.

 

[Cleon-Fonte]

I guess after 30-odd years of heat cycles and hard use the plastic bits become brittle over time, just one of those things really. At least it was just the throttle shaft and not one of the deep internal bits of the pump, it'll be easy work for a diesel specialist.

[vulgalour]

I thought it was plastic at first but no, it's some sort of cast metal, which is probably why it's so delicate.  My concern is that the end of the rod has dropped inside the pump since I can't find that, another reason for not DIYing.

[Vantman]

These people are good and fairly local,they have helped me out with a couple of problems on my lorries-- i can help out if you want anything collected etc. as they are only 10 minutes away from me.       https://www.thomasgroupltd.co.uk/thomas-classic/

[vulgalour]

Good news!  Sort of.  The second hand pump arrived today, it wasn't listed as being for my car specifically but looked similar enough that I hoped it would at least yeild the parts I needed.  Original pump is the one nearest the wall.

Whatever route I took from here, I knew that I wouldn't just be putting the second hand one on the car and hoping it worked. It's expensive to get the pump rebuilt and it would be cheaper to just throw the second hand one on the car and see if it worked, but if it's rebuilt I stand the best chance of whatever pump I refit actually working and not leaking.  Fundamentally, both pumps do look the same.  There's a slight difference in the throttle mechanism on the top, and a slight difference in the lower casing where the second hand one has a big flat area that the original doesn't.  Otherwise, everything that connects looks similar enough that I hoped it would work.  Unfortunately, the second hand pump has had a fall at some point which has bashed part of the top casing off and bent the bracketry on the injector line side so even if I did want to fit it to my car that wasn't going to happen without some parts swapping.  Whatever I did, I was going to have to open up the second hand pump so that's exactly what I did next.

Happily, the broken piece with the springs on was intact and now I understand better how things go together, it remained that way when I removed everything.  This was the main reason for getting this particular pump.  I had also hoped the throttle shaft would be the same.

Unfortunately, the throttle shafts are completely different and, as far as I can tell, not interchangable.  That means I'll have to get a new throttle shaft which is another £40ish, providing I can get the one that my pump needs.

They do both at least have part numbers on them, so replacement should be easier.  It's worth noting too that removing the throttle shaft from the second hand pump was much more difficult, the o-ring was providing a much better seal than on my original pump, which lends credence to the theory that it was that o-ring that was leaking on my original pump.  I need a 777 throttle shaft, the second hand pump is equipped with a 716 throttle shaft, so it's shorter but otherwise the same.  There's also additional plastic bits on the throttle shaft spring that my original pump doesn't have.

Oh well, one step closer at least.  I'll call some injection pump rebuilders and see what they suggest, it may be more cost effective for them to get the throttle shaft my original pump needs, or it may be possible to make one good pump out of the two I've got here.  It's also worth noting that the pump I bought we didn't know exactly which engine or car it fitted, so this was always a bit of a gamble.  There are a lot of variations on the Bosch VE pump for whatever reason and like many things mechanical on French cars, it's just part of the fun of ownership when trying to find the correct bit.

Now, I just need to save up a good chunk of cash to get this moved along to the next stage.

[spartacus]

I'm liking the tenacity you're showing with this Vulg, nothing seems to phase you. On top of all that you still manage to remember to take pics and then do a detailed write up, top work!

[vulgalour]

I'm presently weighing up whether or not it's worth having another stab at DIY since I only really need to replace an o-ring and a throttle shaft, both items I can get easily and relatively affordably, especially when compared to the cost of a full rebuild which probably isn't necessary.  I just have the fear I'll cock it up on reassembly again and put myself back to square one, all for the sake of saving a few hundred quid.

[spartacus]

I think you should give it a go, you'll have learnt from the mistakes that you made on the first go, presumably you've got the time in the current climate, you haven't got much to lose.

[vulgalour]

New throttle shaft and o rings is £40-50 and, if I don't fuck it up, that puts the car working again.  I'll see how the Princess head rebuild goes first, if that goes well my confidence is likely to be a bit higher for sorting the BX out.

[vulgalour]

Pointless plastic tat arrived just now so I had to chuck it on the car.  It might help with wiper lift since the BX does suffer from that a bit at motorway speeds in the rain.  Mostly I got them for nostalgia reasons.

 

[mat_the_cat]

I remember my Dad fitting this back in the day, on his BX. I've not noticed the need myself, but having said that motorways are fairly scarce in North Wales (if not rain...)

[MorrisItalSLX]

5 fins! And here I was thinking my 3 fin versions were giffertastic!

[vulgalour]

More is more!

[vulgalour]

Today has been a good BX day.  Not only has the parts I ordered for the pump now being despatched, one of our neighbours asked if I'd like some old metal ramps.  I'm not a big fan of the old metal ramps for driving onto, I've had a habit once too often of driving a bit too far because I've no sense of where they are.  However, they are a practical thing to jack the car up and sit on for some jobs and free is free.  Neighbours were having a bit of a clearout and I'm sure I've become Old Car Guy (tm) on our street now because if people are getting rid of things, they ask if we'd like them, and I often do because it's useful stuff that we just don't have.

One of the most useful things was an old Black & Decker DN54 circular saw.  We've been clearing a lot of overgrown stuff out of the garden, old laminate flooring, and bits of fence and we've needed something to chop them down with.  Current pandemic restrictions means getting a tool we don't have hasn't really been viable, so providing this little saw actually works it should go through what we need to clear fairly quickly.  I'm guessing it's no newer than mid 90s.

We also got a bunch of old hand saws, some with those really comfortable wooden handles.  I'll clean these up and make them good again, these will be very useful dealing with garden waste that the circular saw and other tools aren't.  There's also a shed to build and the garage to kit out with cupboards and shelves, so these should be a real boon, there's even a nice little tenon saw amongst this bunch.

A Colortune 500 is a useful thing to have.  Am I going to resist the urge to put the Colortune sticker in the back window of the Princess?  Probably not.  It will certainly help with setting things up providing it's all present and correct, which it looks to be.

This little tool is an oddity.  It has two crocodile clips that go on battery terminals and it's for cleaning up spark plugs.  I thought they'd stopped making these well before this style of plastic bodied thing.  I'm thinking it can probably be repurposed as a bolt thread cleaner, I doubt I'll ever use it for its intended purpose.  I imagine the abrasive material inside it is full of lovely lead from old 4 star fuel.  Mmmm carcinolicious!

Finally, the sturdy ramps.  These should make some of the jobs I have to do at home a bit easier.  Jacking the BX up to get them under the front wheels was a bit of a palaver involving two jacks since without the injection pump fitted I can't actually start the car to raise the suspension, or drive the car onto the ramps.  It's another weapon in the toolchest at least and it's saved me getting a new set since there's nothing wrong with these aside from maybe benefitting from a coat of paint.

All in all, not a bad haul.

[stuboy]

blimey not seen one those plug cleaners in 20 years

[dozeydustman]

Nice selection of tools you have got there sir. Could do with a decent set of ramps myself. Old tools with wooden handles are so nice to use. Those old Black & Deckers are pretty robust, might be worth checking the motor brushes.