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inconsistant

Audi, VW and NSU history 1970s

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That bit of Audi history: didn't the 5cylinder Audi 100 come along a year or two after the 1976 introduction, the 5 replacing the 4 also seenin 924 and LT?

Don't think so , from launch the advertising centred on 6 cylinder performance and 4 cylinder economy , or some such bollocks. There were 5S ( carb) and 5 E models, from memory.

I thought it was the 4 pot 1600 that came later with the Avant bodystyle, even as a kid I knew those would be gutless .

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Which pushrod engine are you referring to?

The engine used in the previous model Audi 100.

In the magazine articles of the day phrases such as "based on" and " derived from" were used of the new ohc engine and it's ohv predeccessor.

 

Well, both engines used the Otto priniple and had four cylinders..........

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The Audi-hypothesis is only based on the use of the Neckarsulm-factory. VW and Audi shared production plants and the Porsche-cooperation meant a big deal for all of the involved participients. Audi had a busy Neckarsulm and still its CoupéS and the quattro maybe at the horizon, VW had the Scirocco and with the 924 a decent successor for the 914, for Porsche this car simply represents the rescue for the brand itself.

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On 10/12/2018 at 10:54 PM, stormee said:

The Audi-hypothesis is only based on the use of the Neckarsulm-factory. 

VW and Audi shared production plants

Porsche-cooperation meant a big deal for all of the involved participients. 

Not just this, but also the use of an Audi engine when there were VW alternatives available, that it was being developed as a RWD car when all other VWs were moving to a standardised fwd, front transverse layout, and that the Audi 100 Coupe S ended production in 1976, the same year the 924 was launched,  with no successor and a gap of 4 years before the next Audi Coupe (based on the Audi 80) was launched. VW had only ever produced sports cars in collaboration with other manufacturers (VW-Karmann Ghia Type 14 and Type 34 and the VW-Porsche 914).

 

I don't think VW and Audi did share production plants? I thought Neckarsulm, being an ex NSU factory built the Ro80 and then some Audi 100s and 100 Coupe S. Audi also had Ingolstadt and VW had Wolfsburg.

 

Some accounts suggest the Porsche and VW joint venture that produced the 914 ended badly, and VW didn't want to enter another collaboration to jointly produce a model with Porsche. Assuming the 924 would have been an Audi Coupe, that would have done wonders for the branding and marketing of Audi. In the 60's and 70's lots of Audi 100 adverts made a big thing about the Mercedes derived engines. In the early 70s Audi was a dull but worthy brand, an Audi Coupe 'designed by Porsche' would have been just the ticket for sexing up the brand, in the same what that a few years later they used the Quattro and 4wd to define the brand.

 

The thing is, as has been noted in several replies above, people will believe anything written about cars without question and myth seems to take over from facts to the extent that if the story of the development of a model is complicated then the easiest version becomes the truth. The 924 was going to be a VW. Yes, but since Audi, or indeed Auto Union, or NSU were all divisions of VW (Audi wasn't a stand alone brand until the mid 80s) it's just possible that the 924 was going to be a VW, but was also going to be marketed as an Audi, or an NSU, or a VW-Audi, or an Auto Union. We don't know, and that's the fun bit!

That 1:1 mock up with the VW badge I don't think proves/disproves anything. The designers might have had no idea how the car was going to be marketed, just that they were being commissioned by and presenting their ideas to VW management.  

A good example of the above... next to that photo of the 924 mock up with the VW badge in the book Porsche 924 928 944 968 The Complete Story (Glen Smale) it says "

a.png.6f0201c827cd23c125db48fb730f1670.png

but the Passat was launched in 73, the Scirocco 74 and the Golf 75, so I'm not sure he's got a grasp of the timeline of events. He also goes on to talk about Audi suspension parts being used but as far as I'm aware they're all VW superBeetle and Mk1 Golf. So I'm doubtful that his view is 100% accurate.

 

CAR Oct 1974:

71054600_caroct1974.thumb.jpeg.35e19f14307bcc29fe2bc5dfe7aafadc.jpeg

 

464199732_caroct1974copy.thumb.jpeg.45c4a2e2cf769a735d09d85ae7646ae7.jpeg

 

Motorsport Feb 1976:

157485725_32copy.thumb.jpg.26a6f475c9a729574e16cdceb7adc23e.jpg

 

To clarify, I'm just curious to find out more about the origins of the 924 here, I don't necessarily think I'm right, I'm only exploring whether there's more to the often repeated myths than there appears. Grateful for all thoughts and opinions, I've learned loads I didn't know about the 1970s German car industry!

 

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On 10/12/2018 at 9:31 PM, Alusilber said:

This is the photo from that book I mentioned earlier in the thread that makes me a bit sceptical about the Audi hypothesis...

post-17372-0-56923500-1539375460_thumb.jpeg

Interesting pic but could just be disguise.

If we theorised like this then we might come to the conclusion that the Freelander was destined to be the replacement for the Maestro Van.

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7 hours ago, Timewaster said:

Interesting pic but could just be disguise.

If we theorised like this then we might come to the conclusion that the Freelander was destined to be the replacement for the Maestro Van.

No, the "Maestro 4x4" was a mule for running gear testing on public roads, hence the disguise. The picture above looks like a styling buck (note the dummy lights and opaque windscreen) - something intended for internal consumption only, so no point disguising it really.

 The 924 project had mules for drivetrain testing too.  They were disguised as Opel Mantas and a BMW 2002, because that's actually what they were before Porsche got a hold of them.

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9 hours ago, inconsistant said:

Not just this, but also the use of an Audi engine when there were VW alternatives available, that it was being developed as a RWD car when all other VWs were moving to a standardised fwd, front transverse layout, and that the Audi 100 Coupe S ended production in 1976, the same year the 924 was launched,  with no successor and a gap of 4 years before the next Audi Coupe (based on the Audi 80) was launched. VW had only ever produced sports cars in collaboration with other manufacturers (VW-Karmann Ghia Type 14 and Type 34 and the VW-Porsche 914).

But what non-Audi VW engines were around in the early 70s that would give 125 bhp?

924 as a successor to the 100 Coupe is interesting, but didn't the latter have back seats you could actually sit in?

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Good point about the engine, although it only had 125bhp once Porsche had added an aluminium head and fuel injection, and even then only in Europe as the USA  model had 90bhp at the start.

In the Audi 100 it was 115bhp I think, and the 100 Coupe S had about the same but from a 1900cc engine? 

The K70 had  1800cc with 100bhp... could Porsche have eeked out another 20 or so bhp from this engine? The 1973 Passat I think had an Audi engine but the mk1 Scirocco was available as an 1800 or 2000 according to the Wikipedias but I don't know if they were available at launch or how many bhps. 

The Coupe S  had proper back seats as it was based on the 100 saloon. I don't think the 924 was trying to match the specs of the 100 Coupe S, (didn't it also have a boot rather than a hatchback) I'd see it as a move in a more sporty direction for Audi to counter their sensible saloon model image. It worked for Datsun with the 240Z and Mazda with the original RX7.

Another thing that I think helps the case for the 924 being an Audi was that the 2nd Gen Audi 100 launched in 1976 was sold as a 4 door saloon and the 100 based hatchback was a 5 door 'Avant' which would allowed space in the range for a smaller, sportier 3 door hatchback car.

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1 hour ago, inconsistant said:

.....The K70 had  1800cc with 100bhp.....

K70 had three different power outputs: 1605cc, 75hp (low compression, never sold in UK); 1605cc (90hp, high compression); 1807cc, 100hp. Not sure anyone ever tried fuel injection for these Type 48 engines.

k70mot.jpg

Quite a tall engine once fully dressed, so not sure that it would have gone into the front of the 924 without a noticeable change to the bonnet line.

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Having read various accounts of the 924's history, my impression now is that it may never have been set in stone what badge it would wear before VW pulled the plug, but the photos of styling proposals that have appeared with VW nose badges and wheel centre caps suggest that the intention was that it was going to be a VW at least at one point.  Remember the Polo started off as the Audi 50, so swapping badges around (even after launch) doesn't seem to have been a big deal to them.

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I think i tend to agree with you there. It’s even possible that it might have appeared under different brands in different markets?

Purely speculation, but given the early 70s was a very problematic time for VW and NSU but a time of huge growth for Audi, maybe there were conflicts within the company over direction and model line up in relation to whether VW should replace the 914 with another sports car, and whether Audi should replace the CoupeS with a stand alone sports car? Maybe Leiding, being ex Audi, had to pretend it was going to a VW to get it commissioned but planned it to be an Audi all along?

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A huge shame that once it had been developed and then launched by Porsche, it wasn’t given the Fuchs wheels as the cars look amazing with them. I guess it was a cost related thing and to separate the 924 further from the 911  as a budget Porsche.

Even the stud pattern didn’t happen until the turbo or the 924s. 

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