invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[LightBulbFun]

at this point I just feel bad because now stuarts going to have to rewrite sections of his big book, and now his small book is wrong! LOL

but S Reg Tippen delta! really is late registration madness LOL

[LightBulbFun]

bit more late registration madness

K Reg AC Model 64 and 57!

 

 

this means that the AC Model 57 64 and 70 where all in production at the same time for a while!

although going by the chassis numbers, EPA414J is a year apart but only a few numbers apart from HPH37K, so I suspect the 57/64's by this point where produced on a by request basis rather than on a rolling production line 

(its thought that the Model 57/64's greater ability to be physically modified, ie say to be 8ft tall, is why it continued in production even after better/newer models came along)

[egg]

15 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

granted if its not there its not the biggest loss in the world, I doubt it would be hard to rig up something modern with todays tech

I think the trouble with the 'leccy Tippen - is if the motor is seized and beyond repair,  a like for like replacement might be a bit tricky and could threaten the MOT exemption if changed for something more modern? Just a thought. What transmission did the Tippens use to transmit the power to the wheels I wonder? My experience of electric motors is limited. 

I wonder how water proof they are? Probably not very!

[quicksilver]

Interesting stuff that sheds a lot more light on the NI cars. It looks like the DHSS in GB and its NI equivalent had some degree of independence and placed separate orders as there's no evidence of any batches being split between the two. NI appears to have had its own stockpile, probably in Belfast, which would make more sense than waiting for it to be shipped from Heywood every time one was required. The big difference is that the NI cars seem to have been delivered unregistered and only registered when issued; with the later cars as demand reduced they must have sat around for a while as their registrations are nowhere near chronological with the build dates. Maybe some of those missing cars were never issued and thus never registered.

 

As for the electric Tippen Deltas, they seem to have been effectively built to order, i.e. when one was requested, they would take a surplus petrol Delta from the store at Heywood, rebuild it to electric and register it as a new vehicle. Do we know who actually did the electric conversions? As they were all registered in Lancashire that suggests they were done at or near Heywood.

[LightBulbFun]

18 minutes ago, egg said:

I think the trouble with the 'leccy Tippen - is if the motor is seized and beyond repair,  a like for like replacement might be a bit tricky and could threaten the MOT exemption if changed for something more modern? Just a thought. What transmission did the Tippens use to transmit the power to the wheels I wonder? My experience of electric motors is limited. 

I wonder how water proof they are? Probably not very!

its an electric vehicle from before 2015 (IIRC thats the cut off date) so it will always be MOT exempt, regardless of what you do to it

also since its not MOTable you cant plate rape one  

or in theory you cant...

its worth noting that no invalid vehicle got an MOT in DHSS service, they had an equivalent to one, but I don't believe it was an actual MOT certificate, so one wonders if VES108S etc should really have been allowed to get plate raped...

 

I dont think there was a transmission as such, just a motor bolted directly to the differential  (they are indeed 2 wheel drive unlike their 1 wheel drive petrol counter parts)

or at least thats how it is on 833BRW, the Prototype electric Tippen Delta first built with electric argson gear, then was then later rebuilt as a Mk2 Electric Tippen Delta

yeah its a floppy top so dont know how weather proof it is!

I know a couple members here had reliants with similar roofs maybe they can share their experiences on the subject of waterproofness!

 

12 minutes ago, quicksilver said:

Interesting stuff that sheds a lot more light on the NI cars. It looks like the DHSS in GB and its NI equivalent had some degree of independence and placed separate orders as there's no evidence of any batches being split between the two. NI appears to have had its own stockpile, probably in Belfast, which would make more sense than waiting for it to be shipped from Heywood every time one was required. The big difference is that the NI cars seem to have been delivered unregistered and only registered when issued; with the later cars as demand reduced they must have sat around for a while as their registrations are nowhere near chronological with the build dates. Maybe some of those missing cars were never issued and thus never registered.

 

Yeah  I wonder if it was a case of DHSS would put a contract down for AC, then say to AC "don't registire these 10 they will be sent to/reserved for NI" or something like that, and yeah pretty much all NI Model 70's where always registered much later then their english counterparts (for example KPC391P was registered Aug 75 but  KOI6214 which is one behind chassis number wise was only registried in Sept 76!)

12 minutes ago, quicksilver said:

As for the electric Tippen Deltas, they seem to have been effectively built to order, i.e. when one was requested, they would take a surplus petrol Delta from the store at Heywood, rebuild it to electric and register it as a new vehicle. Do we know who actually did the electric conversions? As they were all registered in Lancashire that suggests they were done at or near Heywood.

aye very much looks like that, much like the Late Model 57/64's

I remember stuart did tell me who rebuilt them into electric form, ill have to see if I can dig it up or ask him again  

 

[LightBulbFun]

Quote

Tippen the company downsized in 1970 & the electric rebuild contract was taken over by fred miller of lancashire

here we go  

(fun fact frank Tippen and sons, was the company that made Model 70 spares after Invacar and AC wound up   we wonder if they made that NOS Model 70 Body shell or not, a Tippen Model 70 now thats a funky thought LOL)

[LightBulbFun]

so continuing with the whole "yay I have a VIN to reg tool" thing

I now suddenly had/have a way to find private Model 70's

see the problem with finding those before was, being private etc they were not registered together in nice neat blocks like DHSS cars where

at least with the Invacar ones at least most did lurk inside DHSS blocks so it would be possible to detect if one existed in a block if the chassis numbers fell behind by 1 in a block

but the ACs where never registered inside a DHSS block so there was no way to find those

but now I have a VIN to reg tool, I can find them, because the private Model 70's have their own chassis number series, that did go up consecutively from one private example to another

so armed with all that, I was able to find a good number of private Model 70's  

 

sadly its not known if which survive or not (some have scrap markers some don't) apart from the obvious 3 RRE20L JNJ135L NPN924P and REV451R

and sadly there are a lot of missing cars, but more on that in a bit

starting with Invacar Model 70's 

is OOO661M hiding in the OOO-M block, this is thought to be the first private Invacar Model 70

 

Private 2 is PPU942M, hiding in the PPU-M block

 

 

Private number 3 is POO214M, hiding in the POO-M block, its interesting to note how close together PPU942M and POO214M where registered, I wonder if they where bought by the same couple or something like that 

 

then sadly Private number 4 to Private number 7 does not turn anything up

Private number 8 is JHJ548N, hiding in the JHJ-N block sadly its not actually known if this on survives or not it did have a keeper change in 2009 so I like to think it still exists

 

then private Number 9, this one is very interesting, because its not part of any DHSS block, nor is it even essex registried 

 

then finally private number 23! REV451R, hiding inside the REV-R block, this one mine  I do wonder if she is the last surviving private Invacar Model 70 given the unknown about JHJ above, scary thought! (and I cant find anything above number 23, so I suspect REV may of been the last Private Invacar Model 70)

sadly theres 12 car gap between Private number 9 and private Number 23,

I dont know what happened to these cars, and also worth noting that March 76 we are on private 9, then suddenly in less then a year by November 76 we are on private number 23!

it sounds almost like some private person or company ordered 12 Model 70's in one go for 1 reason or another!

the whole random periods in the chassis numbers does not help things either, perhaps those 12 are on the system, but have a stray decimal point somewhere messing things up so i cant find em!

I did try a few combinations of decimal points in various locations but never turned anything up

 

then onto AC's as mentioned these where never registered in any DHSS blocks, and most where registried where the first keeper was, but a couple where seemingly registried in Surry/at the factory

its hard to say which AC Private Model 70 is what number ie i cant say which is the 1st or last exactly, because the chassis numbers for them are already into the 2000s by the earliest private Model 70's, I doubt AC sold 2000 Private Model 70s by 1972, so I imagine the chassis number scheme is a continuation from Pre Model 70 private cars

 

RRE20L is the earliest private AC Model 70 I can find

next is JNJ135L (which does not have a scrapped marker thankfully, but does not show up on the DVLA checker for some reason) this one is 1 chassis number up from RRE20L, Stuart says this one very much does still exist

 

next is GPM346L, 1 up from JNJ135L yet registered a good few months before it, go figure that one out! Surry reg but not part of any DHSS block

 

then theres a missing car

then after that missing car is VFG958L "fife m8!"  

  

then after that is PPG124L, again not part of any block but is surry registered 

then there are 3 chassis numbers that dont turn anything up

then finally the last one to show up is NPN924P, note its AC ELECTRIC but without the brackets

 

there are 10 cars/chassis numbers from inc RRE20L to inc NPN924P, but only 6 return results sadly

 

so yeah looks like the private Model 70's are even more of a mystery then initially thought!

 

[egg]

@LightBulbFun a quick Google of Fred Miller revealed this from 2002

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/5930028.caring-firm-puts-off-celebrations-until-spring/

Quote

Fred Miller Ltd, of Moscow Mill Street, was set up in December 1952 as a motor vehicle engineering company and is now one of the largest independent wheelchair service providers in the north west.

Still trading.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00513841

[LightBulbFun]

1 minute ago, egg said:

@LightBulbFun a quic

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/5930028.caring-firm-puts-off-celebrations-until-spring/

 

neat find  

its a shame they dont mention the whole Tippen detla thing, I would think it would be pretty note worthy!

[quicksilver]

Quote

 

LPF701P a lone english car not part of any block, but is a government example

then a missing car then 5 NI Model 70's

Maybe this was diverted from an NI order as a replacement for one that had suffered some misfortune? It was registered after LPE993P but clearly built some time earlier, which suggests something out of the ordinary.

LOI1818 would fit nicely as the missing car here except Cartell says it was a Vauxhall Chevette, oddly registered in the middle of that Model 70 batch.

Quote

but the second one comes back as VNB590S

Definitely an oddity this one. It could be an NI car brought over and re-registered but I can't see why they would bother as surely Heywood had enough spare, unless it had a particularly unusual control layout.

Quote

LOI9672

LOI9674

and the 3rd cars chassis number not turning anything up sadly

Quite likely this was LOI9673

Quote

MOI4951

MOI4948

6 missing here sadly

MOI4949

MOI4944

MOI4945/4946/4947/4950 would logically account for 4 of these. The others could be some combination of MOI4942/4943/4952/4953..

Quote

MOI7366

MOI7367

missing car

MOI7369

Probably MOI7368

Just guesswork but there's a few possibilities for you.

[LightBulbFun]

27 minutes ago, quicksilver said:

Maybe this was diverted from an NI order as a replacement for one that had suffered some misfortune? It was registered after LPE993P but clearly built some time earlier, which suggests something out of the ordinary.

 

LPF701P does not look to have been registered any later then normal for a British car?

in fact it was registered before KPL210P the one that comes before it chassis number wise!  but it is strange that its all on its own, I do wonder if it was canceled NI order or something like that

(did make me realise I made a small typo I meant KPL210P when I said KPL211P!)

 

 

 

you may well be correct on the NI reg front  

it looks like as I discussed with @Datsuncog in a PM, we think that the Model 70's were sent to Musgrave Park Hospital's orthopaedics unit in South Belfast.

where we think they sat unregistered, only being registered when issued to the first user, hence why the registrations are completely out of whack with the chassis numbers, since they would of probably been picked at random, or in according to the control scheme that suits the particular user

I wonder what other places outside of mainland england did the DHSS operate in?, once again I wonder how things  worked in Jersey or the isle of man, it might explain some of the remaining missing cars  

 

27 minutes ago, quicksilver said:

Maybe this was diverted from an NI order as a replacement for one that had suffered some misfortune? It was registered after LPE993P but clearly built some time earlier, which suggests something out of the ordinary.

 

if you were bringing a car back from NI back then did you have to re-register it or could it retain its NI plates etc?

I wonder if it was meant to be a NI car, that just never got sent out for one reason or another, and then someone eventually noticed it and issued it out?

 

I imagine DHSS would contract AC to build an amount of Model 70's but then say "dont registry these 10, they are for NI" or something like that

its also interesting to note that apart from right at the very end of production, it looks like there were no NI Invacar Model 70's

Stuart wonders if its this is to do with the fact it says "Thundersley essex" on the badge, which you didn't exactly want displayed on your car in 1970s/1980s NI LOL

or it could be just good old fashioned DHSS favoritism LOL, in that they decided to let AC handle the extra NI cars

(I would imagine AC would of had more production capacity then Invacar)

[quicksilver]

I suspect the DHSS had nothing to do with the NI cars so it's unlikely they would ever gone anywhere near Heywood but were sent direct from the factory to Belfast. Much like the situation with the DVLNI until recently, it looks like NI has its own Department of Health, Social Services & Public Safety based in Belfast, who were presumably responsible for the invalid vehicle scheme there. I know nowadays NI plates are valid in GB (and vice versa) but I'm not sure that was the case back in the seventies so VNB590S may be a re-registered import - if it was an unregistered car it seems more likely it would just be declared new and the year of manufacture would match the year of registration.

The 590S on that reg seemed familiar to me but I couldn't think why. The answer is obvious!

Back to the 1970s by Adam Floyd, on Flickr

[LightBulbFun]

26 minutes ago, quicksilver said:

I suspect the DHSS had nothing to do with the NI cars so it's unlikely they would ever gone anywhere near Heywood but were sent direct from the factory to Belfast. Much like the situation with the DVLNI until recently, it looks like NI has its own Department of Health, Social Services & Public Safety based in Belfast, who were presumably responsible for the invalid vehicle scheme there. I know nowadays NI plates are valid in GB (and vice versa) but I'm not sure that was the case back in the seventies so VNB590S may be a re-registered import - if it was an unregistered car it seems more likely it would just be declared new and the year of manufacture would match the year of registration.

 

there must of been some involvement or something , because the NI Model 70's are very much DHSS Model 70's

or they would not have DHSS Chassis numbers and Chassis plates with DHSS contract numbers on them

(ok tbf on the last one REV is a private Model 70 and still has a DHSS contract No, but the chassis number is different to DHSS cars)

it also looks like NI Model 70's where taken off the road at the same time as British examples in 2003, so it does look like they were under the same jurisdiction 

SOI7570 has a 2003 scrapped marker for example (although the picture I have of SOI7570 looks more recent then that so hopefully its still around!)

heres a picture of WOI654's chassis plate as an example, its identical to a Mainland english DHSS one

 

if the NI Model 70's where not involved with the DHSS, then id ask how did heywood get ahold of VNB590S? and how/why did it leave NI in the first place! 

but I still think it could be an unregistered example, that sat around for a while with the 76/77 thing explained by the fact they they have the year of manufacture on the Chassis plate hence why it says 1976, but date first registered oct 77

as back then the plate was done according to the date of first registration not the year of manufacture hence S reg rather then P or R reg despite being a 1976 Model 70

 

(as a side note I have never seen the Chassis plate of a Private AC Model 70 it would be very interesting to see what one says  )

 

just discovered a couple more NI Model 70's while typing this  

4 car hole between JPF573N and JPL5N

JPF573N

KOI4951

missing car

missing car

KOI4952

JPL5N

these now being the earliest NI Model 70s Iv found! 

its interesting to note that it looks like the DHSS spare parts list specifically excludes the NI cars from when it lists changes

for example using made up numbers here

it would say "part fitted to vehicles from Chassis No A8 Registration AAA128A"

ignoring A1-A7 which are NI cars

I wonder if this is because they did not know the registration numbers of the NI cars (since perhaps they were not issued yet) or for some other reason?

I would normally say, perhaps the NI cars just happen to be right before the documented change, but I know of a case where a chassis block STARTS with a NI car, but the DHSS spare parts list says the changes that were introduced with that chassis block only apply to vehicles 8 of that block and up, I doubt they would of made 7 NI cars specifically without those changes

 

hah yeah I thought VNB590S looked familiar as well! that explains it, shame its not known survive, to be parked next to YDU590S!  

[Datsuncog]

On ‎11‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 2:41 PM, LightBulbFun said:

I guess this is where @Datsuncog you come into it! I was wondering if you knew anything about how the motability scheme operated over in NI back then? Me and stuart wonder if they were scared by the troubles, so the government had to keep issuing Model 70's?

but its worth noting although registered very late, production defo ended in 1978 as proved by WOI654s chassis plate, so somehow the government knew to stockpile Model 70's or something like that!

Sadly I'm too young to know for sure (and hey, I don't get to say that very often these days), but my take on the NI cars issue is as follows:

• Northern Ireland has a high degree of autonomy from the rest of the UK, in part because it isn't physically connected. Between 1922 and 1972 it had its own independent Parliament, its own Prime Minister, and so forth. Therefore a number of public services are run in a very similar way to those in GB, but are otherwise wholly independent.
• As an example, DVLNI ran alongside DVLA until 2014 - very similar systems, but using completely different legislative tools put into law by the relevant NI Department. Some aspects are the same in practice, like SORN and V5 forms, but others were, and often remain, totally different - such as the R Plate system for new drivers, and the use of government run testing centres for MOTs (and MOTs weren't introduced in NI until the 1970s).
• I believe that the DHSS in NI (called DHSSPS between 1999 and 2016, and now the Department for Health) always operated completely independently as an organisation from the rest of the UK's DHSS.
• Even though it is clinically and administratively run as part of the NHS structure, its budgeting and procurement is allocated from what's called the Northern Ireland Block Grant - a big pot of money set aside to run NI's affairs. Between 1972 and 1999, under the political system of Direct Rule, this grant was allocated and administered by specific Northern Ireland Ministers appointed by the government of the day in Westminster. Currently there is no devolved Northern Ireland Assembly operating, and Direct Rule hasn't been restored (which is why things are fooked).

 

• My understanding is that procurement procedures for DHSS(NI) has always been localised, and as such I don't think Northern Ireland cars could have had any organisational connection to the DHSS Heywood depot.
• You're correct in stating that all the Model 70s you've uncovered were registered in Belfast, with OI and XI series plates (except GIG, but that's clearly a weird one). 
• I'm going to suggest here that Model 70s (and indeed any previous invalid carriages, plus all necessary spares) were most likely ordered separately by the DHSS in NI as and when needed directly from the manufacturer - possibly in small blocks of say ten or twenty cars, and maybe fewer - stored at Musgrave Park, and registered as and when they were allocated to a user. Then, when stocks were running low, another batch was ordered.
• Or - to put it another way - NI cars were maybe in the unique position of being ordered and paid for in exactly the same way as private Model 70s, while remaining DHSS ('government') property - but the owner here was DHSS(NI), Hence the inclusion of the standard DHSS chassis plates, but the confusing way in which they were allocated. I'm wondering if the contract number stamped on is in any way different from those on GB cars?
• This is perhaps why sometimes there are entire blocks of NI cars, and then sometimes only one or two NI examples hiding amid bigger blocks of GB plated cars. With constant spending constraints, DHSS(NI) might have put in some big orders for Model 70s at the start of a given financial year - and then later on found themselves running short due to demand, but were only able to pay for two or three as needed from the remaining budget. Sometimes, they may have ordered a car and then un-ordered it again, putting it back into the general DHSS pool - hence the registration anomalies picked up on upthread.
• Similarly, I think that could be the reason for NI cars being excluded from the GB DHSS spare parts list - because mechanics in England, Scotland or Wales would never have to work on these cars. DHSS(NI) had their own mechanics and, presumably, their own spares lists based on their procured Model 70s.

 

• I think that the vast majority of Model 70s in NI being AC built, rather than by Invacar, suggests that DHSS(NI) purchased them directly from the AC factory using a Direct Award Contract (DAC). This is a common government procurement method when there is no competitive advantage to going out to public tender for procuring something, because only one supplier makes the thing they want. Now, here there were two manufacturers each building broadly the same car, which is unusual - but perhaps the AC factory offered more flexibility in payment, storage or shipping; or maybe Surrey being slightly closer to the Irish Sea than Essex allowed for slightly cheaper delivery costs.
• Unfortunately, it's unlikely that any paperwork remains to prove or disprove this theory. The 'not wanting to send over cars with Essex on the badge' is a good theory, but I don't think that's the reason!
• It's also possible that Invacar-built Model 70s only appeared towards the end of the scheme, when production had ceased, as declared surplus cars were moved out of Heywood and shipped over to NI under NHS rationalisation plans in the early 1980s - because it made more sense to move the odds and ends to one smaller geographical area. Hence new Model 70s being registered well into the 1980s.
• The display in the Ulster Transport Museum (now removed) stated that there were still 1,700 three-wheeled invalid carriages being used in NI as late as 1994, which sounds like quite a lot - but then, as pointed out upthread, The Troubles left a lot of people with serious, life changing injuries. 
• The now-removed information boards in the museum also set out why some people were reluctant to change over to an adapted car, even though efforts to promote adapted cars over Model 70s were being made in the early 1980s:
   
  
  

So - that's my tuppence worth! All this is mostly conjecture, based on my awareness of NI's history and also government procurement procedures, mixed in with your recent discoveries - but I'm happy for you to pick holes in this, if there's crucial facts I've missed!

Oh, and the car which went from an NI plate to a GB plate may have been allocated to someone living in NI who subsequently moved (or returned) over to the Mainland.

I think at that time it would have been a requirement to reregister the vehicle with DVLA, using a new or age-related plate - I don't think 'cherished numbers' (cheap ageless NI plates in GB) were a thing until the records were computerised in the mid-80s, with DVLA and DVLNI administrations then able to access the other's records.

Although the car technically would have belonged to DHSS(NI), if there were specific adaptations for the user then it's possible that common sense prevailed and this particular Model 70 was signed over to GB DHSS - or possibly there was an arrangement that another Model 70 would be sent over to Musgrave Park to replace it. Either way, I'd hazard a guess that this was an ad-hoc arrangement.

I'm wondering whether someone from the Disabled Drivers Association NI may be able to fill in some of the gaps here for us? They're on Facebook... I'm guessing they must have members with a good understanding of exactly how the system ran in NI.

Great going, guys - it's true to say you're breaking new ground here, for sure!

[LightBulbFun]

Ohh thank you for your write up

its exactly what I was hoping for if that makes sense!

 

2 hours ago, Datsuncog said:

• You're correct in stating that all the Model 70s you've uncovered were registered in Belfast, with OI and XI series plates (except GIG, but that's clearly a weird one). 
•  

Yeah, GIGs original registration looks to be WOI4001 so that makes it fit in with the rest

2 hours ago, Datsuncog said:

I'm going to suggest here that Model 70s (and indeed any previous invalid carriages, plus all necessary spares) were most likely ordered separately by the DHSS in NI as and when needed directly from the manufacturer - possibly in small blocks of say ten or twenty cars, and maybe fewer - stored at Musgrave Park, and registered as and when they were allocated to a user. Then, when stocks were running low, another batch was ordered.

its worth noting for what its worth that the NI Model 70's where always in between blocks of mainland cars

they never interrupted a block persay

its interesting to note that all the Invalid vehicles in this video have english registration numbers (assuming this actually happened in belfast! I know its not 1959 because Invacar Mk12s are shown which where not introduced until 1960, so perhaps the location is wrong too? Im not sure)

 

2 hours ago, Datsuncog said:

I'm wondering if the contract number stamped on is in any way different from those on GB cars?

thats the thing the contract numbers are the same as British cars

WOI654

VES108S (XEV88S) close relative to SOI7570

 

REV451R (note the "tippex" over the government property bit LOL)

and TPA621M, interesting to note that it looks to be part of the first 301/x/x/x contract, being 301/1/1 if im reading that correctly

 

2 hours ago, Datsuncog said:

I think that the vast majority of Model 70s in NI being AC built, rather than by Invacar, suggests that DHSS(NI) purchased them directly from the AC factory using a Direct Award Contract (DAC). This is a common government procurement method when there is no competitive advantage to going out to public tender for procuring something, because only one supplier makes the thing they want. Now, here there were two manufacturers each building broadly the same car, which is unusual - but perhaps the AC factory offered more flexibility in payment, storage or shipping; or maybe Surrey being slightly closer to the Irish Sea than Essex allowed for slightly cheaper delivery costs.

aye this could well be possible, I know that Invacar basically had no storage space, and struggled to store Invacars rolling off the production line as it was

so I doubt they could of handled the extra load/uncertainty of the NI cars

 

2 hours ago, Datsuncog said:

This is perhaps why sometimes there are entire blocks of NI cars, and then sometimes only one or two NI examples hiding amid bigger blocks of GB plated cars. With constant spending constraints, DHSS(NI) might have put in some big orders for Model 70s at the start of a given financial year - and then later on found themselves running short due to demand, but were only able to pay for two or three as needed from the remaining budget. Sometimes, they may have ordered a car and then un-ordered it again, putting it back into the general DHSS pool - hence the registration anomalies picked up on upthread.

its worth noting that throughout the Model 70 production, no NI block is bigger then about 10 cars

until we get to the end of Model 70 production where there's a block of 20 NI cars, then VPGS243S-VPGS269S then 53 more NI Model 70's after that to the end of the Chassis block (and thought to be the end of Model 70 production)

 

again that's another thing, as well as having blocks of registration numbers, AC Model 70's  in particular also had blocks of chassis numbers

 

in that using made up numbers

Chassis number went like this S1-S2500, then B1-B500 then F1-F1750 etc (worth noting that the leading letter did not go alphabetically and i'm still trying to figure out what it meant exactly!)

and each chassis block ended with round numbers with reg blocks ending when the chassis block changes (ie it never changes from one chassis block to another chassis block mid reg block, hence why the KPK32P-KPK76P block is only 45 cars big, as thats when that chassis block ends)

which makes me suspect it may have something to do with the contract given at the time by the DHSS

which again makes me suspect SOME cross talk between NI and GB DHSS must of taken place

otherwise the NI cars could not fit in if that makes sense? or would have to have their own chassis numbers

 

2 hours ago, Datsuncog said:

• The display in the Ulster Transport Museum (now removed) stated that there were still 1,700 three-wheeled invalid carriages being used in NI as late as 1994, which sounds like quite a lot - but then, as pointed out upthread, The Troubles left a lot of people with serious, life changing injuries. 
• The now-removed information boards in the museum also set out why some people were reluctant to change over to an adapted car, even though efforts to promote adapted cars over Model 70s were being made in the early 1980s:

I think the 1700 figure is either for GB or GB and NI combined because this video says either 200 or 500 Trike users in 1981 in NI https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-year-of-the-disabled-1981-online

and I don't see how that number could suddenly balloon to 1700 in the space of 2 years when in 1983 the Issuing of Model 70's to new users ended

(again thats another thing, we know in GB, that the last civilian Model 70 was issued in July 1978, but the option to war pensioners remained until 1983, which coincides with the latest registered Model 70 I can find being from 1983 CXI936 if the invalid vehicle scheme in NI was independent from GB, then surely they would have their own dates etc?)

you say the display is removed, is WOI654 still there? I hope its safe!

 

the points you make are valid that the Model 70's in NI where entirely separate from the DHSS in england

but theres too many things that connect the 2 for me to totally agree with that

its worth noting that under the DHSS, the Invalid vehicles where run by the invalid vehicle service the IVS, I wonder this specific department was the same between DHSS GB and DHSS NI?

anyways these where my corresponding thoughts  

 

 

2 hours ago, Datsuncog said:

Great going, guys - it's true to say you're breaking new ground here, for sure!

 

Thanks  so much new stuff uncovered! 

from all the NI Model 70's through the private Model 70's to S Reg tippen deltas!

(side note I only know of 1 NI or ROI im not entirely sure, Tippen Delta DNI89, sadly does not produce a result on anything, but I know its a Petrol Tippen Delta 3 from 1961 apparently)

[LightBulbFun]

On 11/6/2019 at 10:04 PM, LightBulbFun said:

 @BorniteIdentity your Tippen Delta is here!  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174088082071

 

hang on...

Tippen delta and a Model 70 in one shot

@Mrs6C this is not your friend who said he had both a Tippen Delta and a Model 70 is it?

otherwise this makes 3 people I know of that have both a Model 70 and a Tippen Delta!

[Mrs6C]

59 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

hang on...

Tippen delta and a Model 70 in one shot

@Mrs6C this is not your friend who said he had both a Tippen Delta and a Model 70 is it?

otherwise this makes 3 people I know of that have both a Model 70 and a Tippen Delta!

I doubt it as I don't think he'd be selling it any time soon.

Found this...

 

[LightBulbFun]

3 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

I doubt it as I don't think he'd be selling it any time soon.

Found this...

 

interesting!, do let me know if ya manage to get details and pics on the Model 70/Tippen Delta he has  

ah yes I v seen that one a few times, note 5821F right at the start, singular letter Reg  

(also Invacar Mk10 galore  )

[LightBulbFun]

keep meaning to mention

had my 6th driving lesson today

again I think it went quite well, today I focused on getting quicker at pulling out of junctions, making sure to shift into 1st before I come to a stop so I don't have to worry about shifting to 1st when pulling out of the junction

also did some more mingling with traffic, and dealt with roadworks and temporary traffic lights which was interesting! I also practiced holding the clutch up just before/at the bite point so I could set off quickly etc

I have not asked how well he thinks im doing, although I do plan to

but I think he thinks im doing well, as today initially, he wanted to take me to the place they do the actual tests at to familiarize myself with that area, but since it would take a good 20 mins to get there he was like "do you want to drive there?" as a way so the 20 mins spent getting there is not just me sitting twiddling thumbs

which is a good sign if he thinks im good enough to go there with me driving, but I asked that we practice pulling out of junctions just little bit more, as at the point I was still a bit too slow I think, so thats what we did this lesson which I think went well, im definitely quicker/more confident then before today  

I definitely think i'm getting better at this whole driving malarkey  

next lesson is scheduled for monday  

[LightBulbFun]

12 minutes ago, trigger said:

 

gosh that is shiny  

makes me very happy to see a Model 67 that even vaguely looks roadworthy, let alone this shiny

did you happen to talk with the owner and or get any details of it?

I have not seen the inside of a Mk15 before so im very curious to see what it looks like

and a long shot, but you did not happen to grab pictures of the engine bay and the front suspension area? 

such a shame its been rung with the ID of a Model 57, im hoping in time to find the actual chassis number location on the actual chassis on villiers machines, so I can ID these rung ones, and the ones where the chassis plate has been lost/removed (did the tax disk say anything out of curiosity ?)

sadly the actual chassis number location on the chassis itself is only currently known where it is for Model 70's

thank you for grabbing these 2 pics at least  

[Mrs6C]

It looks like petrol tanks failing in Invacars was a known issue at the time, not only now...

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/1974-11-15/debates/b977e745-ddfe-4176-a0e2-c82a058beff4/Invacars(PetrolTanks)

The Hansard archives have quite a few records of discussions about Invacars, invalid tricycles etc. Worth a look!

[LightBulbFun]

1 minute ago, Mrs6C said:

It looks like petrol tanks failing in Invacars was a known issue at the time, not only now...

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/1974-11-15/debates/b977e745-ddfe-4176-a0e2-c82a058beff4/Invacars(PetrolTanks)

interesting  

I wonder if its to do with this, rather than petrol tanks failing per say, just high demand of petrol tanks caused by the need to retrofit of a safer design,  causing supply issues

 

 

interesting to note that wales has its own little section

[Mrs6C]

Could be, though one wonders how a delay in replacement for increased safety would cause hardship to users, unless the vehicles were taken off them pending the refit and therefore they were without a vehicle in the meantime, but perhaps it was just a political point being made at the time.

This Hansard extract is interesting. It looks like entitlement to an invalid vehicle ceased on reaching pension age. As people would still have had mobility requirements as pensioners, it might explain why private vehicles were purchased. Pensioners would otherwise have had to give up their mobility when the DHSS-supplied models were taken away.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1977-04-26/debates/7c8c262a-69f5-4989-9974-94ca13055601/DisabledPersons(Mobility)?highlight=invacar#contribution-fd34f3ce-5f29-4b51-803a-0346bfd86b94

Mr Giles Shaw (Pudsey)

I am sure that all hon. Members agree with the hon. Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hughes) about the problems and difficulties of obtaining ramps, door handles and switches at the right levels.

I want to refer particularly to the problems facing disabled people who are retired or who are about to reach retirement age. All hon. Members will have constituency cases, but I want to bring to the attention of the House one particular case which, after discussion with those concerned, I have permission to raise.

It concerns a Mr. and Mrs. P. of Yeadon. Mrs. P. is 58 and her husband 64. Both are disabled, not because of immobility in their limbs, but because they have breathing difficulties and cannot move easily. The wife became a registered disabled person first, but, since she was not able to drive, she did not apply for an invalid vehicle. Her husband became disabled 18 months ago and he has an invalid car. He has also received a letter from the Department of Health and Social Security, written on 26th July, which states

"I wish to point out that your entitlement to the supply of a three-wheeler ceases on 10th June 1978 when you reach pension age, and any vehicle on loan to you at that time will be withdrawn.

The text goes on to further discussion, but that was the salient part.

[LightBulbFun]

19 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

"I wish to point out that your entitlement to the supply of a three-wheeler ceases on 10th June 1978 when you reach pension age, and any vehicle on loan to you at that time will be withdrawn.

 

interesting find because im pretty sure for example Marion webb was well past pension age when she finally had to give up TJN352R on the 14th of Oct 2004

I wonder if his case had something specific going on, or if the rules changed at some point

will discuss with stuart at some point  

 

22 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

unless the vehicles were taken off them pending the refit and therefore they were without a vehicle in the meantime, but perhaps it was just a political point being made at the time.

thats what im thinking, approved repairer takes vehicle off the road to be retrofitted, only to find they cant get the part in due to high demand, so the vehicle is left stranded etc

(although you would think they would only take a vehicle off the road once they have the part in stock!)

[LightBulbFun]

welp this just put a spanner in the works

just uncovered KOI3637 an Invacar Model 70....

it somewhat explains some chassis number weirdness in the spare parts lists which we thought was a typo I think...

technically its chassis number corresponds to the reg JHJ582N, but JHJ582N has a higher chassis number then the rest of the JHJ block (JHJ578N-JHJ582N all do) then JHJ583N etc snaps back to normal

and also may explain why in some invacar registration blocks of say 100, the chassis numbers increase by more than 100 by the end of the block, perhaps  indicating that there may be some NI cars hiding in the blocks

 

[LightBulbFun]

Private Invacar Model 70 Number 28! this one was missing a dot where there usually is one when a private Invacar model 70's chassis number does include dots,, ie its normally AAA.A.AA but this one was  AAAA.AA 

I did search for 4-7 10-22 and 24-27 with this new info but sadly still nothing

does mean REV was not the last private Model 70 and it looks like Invacar built more then my 25 estimate, but not far from it! (also looks pretty strongly that Invacar built more/had more private Model 70's orders then AC did)

 

  

[LightBulbFun]

just discovered something interesting about my new toy/tool

it can sort of tell you about VIN number changes

in that if you put the VIN number it was previously before it changed, it will still pull up that vehicle  

should help when I come to sort out "TTW906R"/TVW4R (I mean I know its TVW4R, but just still figuring out how to explain it all to the owner!)

(and WOO848S, that one is running around with the Chassis number for XEV87S on its V5 for some reason, sadly i don't have any detailed pics of WOO848S so I can't say if WOO848S is or is not actually XEV87S)

[quicksilver]

A thought occurred that might explain the 12 missing private Invacars. It's been reported in this thread that some Model 70s existed in the Republic of Ireland, where there was no invalid vehicle scheme and they would all have had to be bought privately. Perhaps that batch of 12 were ordered by a disabled association in Ireland for its members, and maybe some of the other missing cars went to Ireland too? As they were in a completely separate country they would never have appeared in DVLA records.

[cms206]

2 minutes ago, quicksilver said:

A thought occurred that might explain the 12 missing private Invacars. It's been reported in this thread that some Model 70s existed in the Republic of Ireland, where there was no invalid vehicle scheme and they would all have had to be bought privately. Perhaps that batch of 12 were ordered by a disabled association in Ireland for its members, and maybe some of the other missing cars went to Ireland too? As they were in a completely separate country they would never have appeared in DVLA records.

Until the mid 1980s all Irish registrations were in a common series both north and south of the border; who administered the southern series?

[LightBulbFun]

29 minutes ago, quicksilver said:

A thought occurred that might explain the 12 missing private Invacars. It's been reported in this thread that some Model 70s existed in the Republic of Ireland, where there was no invalid vehicle scheme and they would all have had to be bought privately. Perhaps that batch of 12 were ordered by a disabled association in Ireland for its members, and maybe some of the other missing cars went to Ireland too? As they were in a completely separate country they would never have appeared in DVLA records.

Good theory  (with all this NI stuff once more I wonder about the invalid vehicle @Faker knows of, it may answer some questions! )

my comercial "HPI" tool can do ROI stuff too, but sadly nothing has yet to turn up, but ill shove in some more chassis numbers and see if anything pops up

BTW Stuart says the IVS would of been the same for both GB and NI regardless of the fact the 2 DHSSs where run independently 

since the IVS was sort of its own organization , and that for regional stuff they had the whole artificial limb and appliance centers thing etc

which you can see mentioned above with wales having their own specific instructions for example, so I imagine NI would of had its own special ALAC instructions

 

if ROI really had Model 70's I really need a picture of one so I can take its reg and just see what does it come back as!