invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[LightBulbFun]

I knew GEC had a factory at Trafford Park but had no idea they also had operations in Shaw. It must've been a massive firm in its heyday.

A major annoyance of mine - someone has to be annoyed by these things - is the proliferation of LEDs in preserved coaching stock. KWVR have a fine set of Metropolitan suburban coaches and they used the standard pearl light bulbs. Last time I travelled on them these had gone and were replaced by some flickering 'atmospheric heritage' shit. Like when the Cuntcil rips out 100-odd year old cast iron lamp standards and replaces them with something modern made to look 'old'.

 

indeed GEC was a pretty big company during its heyday heres some detailed info on the shaw factory  http://www.lamptech.co.uk/Documents/Factory%20-%20UK%20-%20Shaw.htm

 

I fully agree with you on the LED crap

[LightBulbFun]

Just got told by Stuart that they did sell Model 70s privately!

 

and that both RRE20L and VES108S are such examples, with VES108S being the very last Invacar Model 70 off the production line

 

how awesome is that?! that the very last Invacar survives! (he says AC did make about 15 after VES108S, he also says that a total of 25 Model 70s where sold privately between 1971-1978 and that 5 of those are known today )

 

this exactly the sort of juicy information I was hoping for 

[LightBulbFun]

while im geeking out

 

Iv also discovered why the Aussie Model 67 has no front mould lines

 

 

this is because apparently, the whole "Model" naming scheme came from the DHSS

 

with the Model 67 being known by AC as the "Mk14" and the "Mk15"

 

the difference being small things, but one of those things is the lack of mould lines on the Mk15

 

(also fun fact the Invacar Mk12 was known as the Model 66 in the DHSS)

 

Oh and that official paint codes do exist!

[Mrcento]

You've probably seen this 100x over, but in my search for things, i spotted this kids book..... Random, but a cool little thing.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ivan-Invacar-Cave-James-Boles-ebook/dp/B00GB23BMK?SubscriptionId=AKIAJQI4WMRX5G4E5LIQ&tag=forsalecouk-21

 

[LightBulbFun]

You've probably seen this 100x over, but in my search for things, i spotted this kids book..... Random, but a cool little thing.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ivan-Invacar-Cave-James-Boles-ebook/dp/B00GB23BMK?SubscriptionId=AKIAJQI4WMRX5G4E5LIQ&tag=forsalecouk-21

 

 

 

Oh yeah iv come across those, makes me grin that someone out there wrote a childs book around a Mk12 invacar

 

(egg has children right? well now he has a good excuse for getting the mk12, "The kids wanted one after reading the book, honest!" 

 

things are still going very well on Facebook with Sturart giving me a massive welth of infomation on invalid carriages and Model 70s 

 

its very awesome and im very excited about it all, im also very thankful to stuart for him taking time out of his day to answer all my questions

 

I think tomorrow ill do a full write up here on what iv been told  (Like how prototype Model 70 "P5" had a 400cc industrial engine!)

[LightBulbFun]

alright full write up time! 

 

turns out WVM446P (the one in Thailand) was Stuarts first Model 70!

 

TTW991R and "1LEG" which both passed through Fraser are now in the north of scotland somewhere

 

GEV492N MPD536P PHK714R (the 3 Model 70s from that ebay archive type place) all apparently came from a batch of 12 from 1 bloke in Lincoln in about 2004, who acted a bit funny about selling them, then he died and his nephew sold em all off in about a week, where they went from there im not sure

 

WPD607G is just a ringer and not a prototype or such

 

but on the subject of prototypes 

 

 

the above IS a prototype Model 70, "P5" which had a 400cc industrial engine apparently,

 

and then the one after that "P5" apparently looked much more like a production Model 70, with the widened track etc, but had an entire Fiat rear end, engine gearbox the whole lot etc (rather then the Puch/CVT setup of production models)

 

so it looks like they did just decided to widen the rear track on their own accord, rather then do it when they had to switch to the Steyr puch engines

 

(but im bet they where glad they did widen it when they did have to switch!)

 

im very happy to finally get these quaries/questions awnsered

 

im also very glad that the people there seem to get that im very much enthusiastic about invalid carriages, and not that I just want a model 70 because "oh thats a funny looking microcar" or such

 

I think its one of the reasons Stuart is willing to talk to me about it all etc

[LightBulbFun]

i seem to be blocked from that group,as i cant find it but your writing style is very similar to how stuart used to write back in the day,so your probably quite similar.

 

aw sorry to hear that, at least you can be kept in the loop via this thread

 

on that note forgot to mention during my write up

 

that GPG721K is indeed the oldest surviving Model 70 (not sure if he meant production ones, or just in general) with it having the chassis number of Z111, which he says is either the 11th or 111th off the AC production line

 

also that KPK888K is the second oldest, thats a nifty plate

[dollywobbler]

TWC is 805, so they clearly built quite a few in that first year.

[quicksilver]

I thought TWC was the oldest surviving Model 70. Is she the oldest Invacar-built example but there are older ones built by AC?

 

That's a fascinating revelation that you could buy an Invacar as everything I've read is adamant they were only supplied by the DHSS. That explains the existence of the brochure as I was beginning to wonder why they bothered producing a brochure for a vehicle with a captive market. It begs the question of what happened to these privately-owned carriages in 2003 though - obviously the DHSS couldn't take them away and scrap them but with the invalid carriage tax class abolished they wouldn't be road legal anymore so did their owners have to get rid of them?

[DodgeRover]

I would assume given the presence of local offices they would have been re registered as a trike at that point but I assume most of the remaining owners would have been in the disabled class for road tax purposes?

 

It also explains why some spares survived the cull as if none were surviving in private hands then nobody would have kept any remaining model specific stock.

 

Thinking about it we once had a land rover that was registered as farmers light goods tax class which had been abolished - when we taxed it it just went into the PLG catagory.

[dollywobbler]

I thought TWC was the oldest surviving Model 70. Is she the oldest Invacar-built example but there are older ones built by AC?

 

That's a fascinating revelation that you could buy an Invacar as everything I've read is adamant they were only supplied by the DHSS. That explains the existence of the brochure as I was beginning to wonder why they bothered producing a brochure for a vehicle with a captive market. It begs the question of what happened to these privately-owned carriages in 2003 though - obviously the DHSS couldn't take them away and scrap them but with the invalid carriage tax class abolished they wouldn't be road legal anymore so did their owners have to get rid of them?

 

No, there seem to be quite a few survivors on a K plate. I thought she was one of the first, but that seems unlikely with new info.

[egg]

I love this pic of them being stacked like model cars...There's an F reg there, but not a 70?

 

[LightBulbFun]

Yeah I like that photo too  (theres a joke about "yeah picture of my future garage" in there somewhere  )

 

theres also from the same place this picture which I think is quite striking

 

 

SPA219L is for sure a Model 70, TPD924F looks like a AC Model 67-Mk14 going by the mould lines and round wing mirror, APK864H Looks like a AC Model 67-Mk15 because of the lack of mould lines down the front and the more modern wing mirror, I THINK EPH364J is also the same, (as I think every Model 70 is on a K plate or later but iv not verified that) and of course GVW518H ENO109G are Invacar Mk12s (prolly Mk12Es going by the 1969-1970 reg)

 

indeed I too find it pretty cool how they where sold privately, in 1977 they cost £1799, about £10K in todays money

 

im not actually sure what the oldest surviving Invacar made Model 70 is....

 

(as for the private ones, the tax class of "Disabled" was never abolished I believe its still used today, however I dont know how the Model 70s vehicle type stands today which is "invalid vehicle" (going by TPAs logbook), I did read somewhere of one modern day Model 70 owner who got away without updating his from "invalid vehicle" to tricycle so maybe, the few private owners left in 2003 just kept using them as is? this is of course just speculation on my part)

[Datsuncog]

On 2/11/2019 at 10:57 PM, LightBulbFun said:

Just got told by Stuart that they did sell Model 70s privately!

and that both RRE20L and VES108S are such examples, with VES108S being the very last Invacar Model 70 off the production line

how awesome is that?! that the very last Invacar survives! (he says AC did make about 15 after VES108S, he also says that a total of 25 Model 70s where sold privately between 1971-1978 and that 5 of those are known today )

this exactly the sort of juicy information I was hoping for 

Yep, that's interesting indeed - I did know that there were a few Model 70s sold privately when new, although the vast majority were bought by NHS Trusts. Had no idea how many (few), though. This is where the folks on the Microcar FB page can really add value to The Great Invacar Hunt!

You may have read my memory lane ramblings about the legal/practical considerations behind the withdrawal of the last three-wheeler invalid carriages in 2003 on DW's epic thread...

http://autoshite.com/topic/29975-dollywobblers-invacar-award-winning/?p=1359424

Some of my colleagues at the time in The Disabilities Trust had mentioned that at least one Invacar in the Sussex area was privately owned and so non-NHS - there was some confusion regarding what to do about this one.

Obviously it couldn't simply be lifted by an NHS contractor like the few remaining others, as that'd be theft - and no-one could work out who, if anyone, would be responsible for providing compensation to the owner. Yet because the taxation class of 'invalid carriage' would be withdrawn after 2003, it wouldn't be road legal (so we were told, anyway). Since the owner had apparently never sat a driving test, they wouldn't be allowed to drive it even if it was re-classified with DVLA as a motorised tricycle, without passing a test first. I think there was some talk of trying to persuade them to switch to a battery-powered mobility scooter instead, and just scrap the Invacar.

Unfortunately, I never did find out how that situation panned out - but I'd like to think that it might be one of the five survivors...

EDIT: Also interesting that not all survivors maybe had to change their taxation class! Bureaucracy, hey?

[LightBulbFun]

Ah yes I had read that post never gave it a like for some reason, well i have done so now

 

I was aware that privately owned invalid carriages where I thing but at that point (and what I was later told in this thread) I had thought the practice of selling them new privately had stopped in the 1960s, so I figured you where just referring to those cars,

 

but obviously thats not the case, and could of well been a Model 70 (the private ownership of VES108S explains its scottish reg plate too)

 

even if its not one of the known 5 survivors, being privately owned, maybe its still sitting in a barn somewhere

 

im trying to gently approach the topic of me wanting one, gently over there, because iv seen how that went down here, plus I know one of the reasons stuart stepped down from his roll at the ICR was people just went to him to find invacars, rather then for the enthusiasm if that makes sense

 

(a bit like how if you know computers really well, how people will just come to you to fix their computer, rather then share the hobby with you or such)

 

so as such im being quite gentle about where I could find a Model 70, as I dont want to annoy stuart or such

 

BTW I spotted another interesting difference between Mk14 and Mk15 Model 67s,

 

no door on the Mk14-67

 

 

 

yes door on the Mk15-67

 

 

[dollywobbler]

They were never registered as 'Disabled.' They were 'Invalid Carriages,' with their own driving licence class. It is certainly interesting to consider what happened to those privately-owned Invacars in 2003.

 

EDIT - I mis-remembered here, as my brain isn't working. Mine was tax class Disabled, body type Invalid Carriage.

[LightBulbFun]

They were never registered as 'Disabled.' They were 'Invalid Carriages,' with their own driving licence class. It is certainly interesting to consider what happened to those privately-owned Invacars in 2003.

 

I think you miss read what i wrote (although to be fair looking at TPAs V5 again, it does not actually say "vehicle type" anywhere, the closest thing it says to that is body type)

 

their tax class was "disabled" which AFAIK is still a valid tax class these days (used by disabled people of course)

 

but their body type was "invalid vehicle" which I imagine is what people are referring to when they say the tax class was abolished or such like.

 

[egg]

I know PVD has said this is already in existence...

 

But I don't think I'll ever be happy until we have a spreadsheet that says:

• Manufacturer  xxx
• Model xxx
• Engine xxx
• Type of controls xxx
• build date xxx
• chassis number xxx
• registration number xxx

 

and we can actually tick-off the survivors one by one against the master list.

 

Can you tell I've been an auditor for 20 years, lol.

[LightBulbFun]

I know PVD has said this is already in existence...

 

But I don't think I'll ever be happy until we have a spreadsheet that says:

• Manufacturer  xxx
• Model xxx
• Engine xxx
• Type of controls xxx
• build date xxx
• chassis number xxx
• registration number xxx

 

and we can actually tick-off the survivors one by one against the master list.

 

Can you tell I've been an auditor for 20 years, lol.

 

See! someone gets what im on about! 

[Datsuncog]

Out of interest, has this Q-plated example appeared on the radar yet? Exported and now re-registered, mebbe?

Given it was taxed until 2009, I'd like to think it's known to enthusiasts and has survived (picture's stamped 2011).

[quicksilver]

The case of the privately-owned Invacars is certainly intriguing. I can't figure out what the target market was and why anybody would buy one though. Surely anybody disabled enough to need an invalid carriage would be eligible for a free one so how did they sell any?

[LightBulbFun]

Out of interest, has this Q-plated example appeared on the radar yet? Exported and now re-registered, mebbe?

 

Invacar Q202LDV.jpg

 

Given it was taxed until 2009, I'd like to think it's known to enthusiasts and has survived (picture's stamped 2011).

 

Invacar Q202LDV tax status 2019.png

 

ah yes, id like to know what the reg on that one originally was

 

from what iv seen its currently with a car collector in Sweden along with TLX322 another Model 70

 

 

 

The case of the privately-owned Invacars is certainly intriguing. I can't figure out what the target market was and why anybody would buy one though. Surely anybody disabled enough to need an invalid carriage would be eligible for a free one so how did they sell any?

 

indeed I wonder about it too, maybe someone may of been eligible for one, but decided they wanted to own it privately because they did not like the DHSS or something or maybe for people who where not eligible for one on the DHSS but they themselves decided they needed one?

 

defiantly one of my many questions I have for stuart

[Datsuncog]

On 2/12/2019 at 4:16 PM, quicksilver said:

The case of the privately-owned Invacars is certainly intriguing. I can't figure out what the target market was and why anybody would buy one though. Surely anybody disabled enough to need an invalid carriage would be eligible for a free one so how did they sell any?

I've kinda wondered that myself. Possibilities might include:

• reasonably wealthy people who didn't want to join a waiting list for NHS assessment and provision to become independent/regain their independence (I've no idea what sort of timescales applied from application to assessment to receiving an Invacar in the 1970s, but I'd guess the process still took a while - whereas buying privately from the manufacturer would be 'off the shelf');
• people who preferred the idea of owning their vehicle, rather than the 'owner' being the NHS (sounds weird, but I know some older people who have a massive aversion to feeling in debt/being dependent on others, to the point of pre-paying all their utilities up front so they never receive a bill);
• people who weren't disabled but may have been able to expolit the no-licence nature of the vehicles - wild guess here, but did Invacars inadvertantly fall into a similar category to the French sans-permis vehicles, which were/are often used by people who lose their license through the courts?
• people who really, really wanted to park at the touchline at football games (okay, probably not that one).
• eccentric millionaires who liked to move about incognito - the same way you could buy an upmarket version of the Austin FX4 in non-taxi 'limousine' spec - the Austin FL2. Apparently a few high-profile people once used FL2s to get around London without being noticed, including Lawrence Olivier, various peers of the realm and (most famously) Phil The Greek. I mean, what are you more likely to think: "Wow, I just saw Howard Hughes drive past in an Invacar" or "Wow, that fella who just drove past in an Invacar is an absolute double for Howard Hughes" (ok, probably not that one either - but have a pic of an FL2 anyway).

[Datsuncog]

On 2/12/2019 at 4:29 PM, LightBulbFun said:

ah yes, id like to know what the reg on that one originally was

from what iv seen its currently with a car collector in Sweden along with TLX322 another Model 70

Ah, I recognise it now - thought it was a C-prefix on that one! Good-o.

[LightBulbFun]

been talking to "the Guy in the know" some more and its been Awesome!

 

learn some really cool facts!

 

like how a Model 70  is NOT an invalid carriage, and how there are 2 different definitions of "invalid carriage" by the government, and used at the same time between 1970-1988!

 

its quite complicated but it boils down to the fact, the original invalid carriage category so to speak had a weight limit of 5CWT

 

anything over that was NOT an invalid carriage, however in 1960 the government did introduce the "invalid tricycle" category so to speak for things between 5cwt-10cwt

 

also people issued with these "invalid tricycles" had to pass a class 3 test invalid tricycle, where no different then how someone with a Reliant of some kind  was treated (this explains the invacars with L plates you some times see in old photos)

 

it also means, the ONLY thing you have to change on a Model 70s V5 if you want to drive it around these days, is change the Tax class from "Disabled" to "Tricycle" or as they all are these days "Historic" class

 

you dont have to and theres no reason to change body type (and you can leave it as it is as "invalid vehicle )

 

 

now if your wondering, yes the invalid carriage signs you saw on motorways ONLY applied to the original invalid carriage category

 

things like the Model 70 where NEVER banned from the motorway or such, its just a giant misconception basically

 

(in 1970 the government introduced the Chronically Sick & Disabled persons Act  that introduced the modern day mobility scooters you see these days, and most helpfully* the government called these invalid carriages! while the original invalid carriage spec was still going, eventually in 1988 the original 1927 category was retired. but for a while from 1970-1988 you had both categories running at the same time for maximum confusion LOL) its also why you still see "invalid carriage" on various DVLA pages, they are just referring to the modern mobility scooters

[quicksilver]

This is starting to feel like an episode of QI where all the 'facts' everyone knows about the Invacar turn out not to be true and the klaxon goes off everytime anybody says anything

[LightBulbFun]

This is starting to feel like an episode of QI where all the 'facts' everyone knows about the Invacar turn out not to be true and the klaxon goes off everytime anybody says anything

 

Hah yeah its been a bit like that today but im very happy and excited to finally get some proper information on the whole subject right from the source so to speak 

 

its also interesting how suddenly a lot of things fall into place, like the L plates thing, or why the Mk12 brochure says "Invalid tricycle" rather than "invalid carriage" 

 

it also explains how the privately owned ones would have been treated, just like a reliant Regal or robin would have been

 

I wonder what the vin plates of the private Model 70s look like, since the DHSS ones have all the government stuff on there)

[dollywobbler]

I am so annoyed that I didn't get photos of the first V5C that arrived when I first applied for one for TWC. I was just so giddy and excited that I just sent it back, not knowing the info on it might be of interest. I'm pretty sure it did not say Invalid Tricycle though, yet I do know about the weight limit (and the fact the Model 70 is over it). Mind you, we all know that DVLA records can be a right mixed batch at the best of times...

[LightBulbFun]

I am so annoyed that I didn't get photos of the first V5C that arrived when I first applied for one for TWC. I was just so giddy and excited that I just sent it back, not knowing the info on it might be of interest. I'm pretty sure it did not say Invalid Tricycle though, yet I do know about the weight limit (and the fact the Model 70 is over it). Mind you, we all know that DVLA records can be a right mixed batch at the best of times...

 

"I was just so giddy and excited that I just sent it back" now thats something that sounds very odd out of context 

 

I dont think? model 70s at least said "invalid tricycle" anywhere in the V5, invalid tricycle is just what their category was in the government... I dont even know if the V5 of any Model 70 (or other such like) will actually say such anywhere, apart from invalid vehicial in the body type, but that does not actually mean anything for if you want to go and drive on on the public highway again

 

but again as you say, iv personally only got a sample size of 1 Model 70 V5, it will be Very interesting if Egg is able to get the original ID and V5 for his Mk12 and what that says

 

this is all very new and exciting stuff for me

[egg]

I'm hoping by some miracle there is a reg plate attached to the front of the MK12, that would be bloody helpful...