invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[busmansholiday]

9 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

well, @busmansholiday or maybe it was @Inspector Morose, can correct me if im wrong but I recall at least one enthusiast got round that probably by simply towing along a suitably sized diesel generator  

id love to know the details of that!,  i mean for starters, how big is the Motor (or Motors id presume) in a Trolly bus how much power do they require...

IIRC they ran on 600V DC (thank you traction lightbulbs for that information) but i dont have any info on their average current draw,

these days I wonder if you could strap some solar panels to the roof and just tow a trailer full of Tesla car battery packs or such, wonder what sort of range that would get you

(or even sling the battery packs underneath the trolly bus, DIY electric bus? bonus points if you drive it all the way home from spain)

 

Towed a diesel powered generator. Might be an "interesting" discussion about ULEZ as technically it's electric but towing a BFO diesel engine belching fumes everywhere as that will not need a dpf or cat.

[Inspector Morose]

Moons ago we had a diesel genny for trolleybus shenanigans. Built from bits and pieces, it used an AEC bus engine (with no silencer) driving an ex-Derby 100hp motor. Walsall 862 was fitted with a towbar (the brackets used to be still fitted when I saw it last a few years back) and the whole outfit was driven on the roads with the bus engine wound up to a set speed to provide power. Needless to say this concoction wasn’t that great at proving the silent efficiency of electric traction but it did provide a few giggles!

Of course Sandtoft used to have a static genset to power its system up until 20 odd years ago. They used a Cummins  engined Guy big J chassis, minus axles, with the gearbox replaced by an ex-Bradford 120hp motor. A simple voltage sensing circuit was coupled to a washing machine solenoid so when a bus drew power, the solenoid wound the Cummins wide open. On one occasion the solenoid stuck open and fried the wiring on Maidstone 72 (?) it henceforth becoming known as the 1000v trolleybus. Once I was driving Aachen 22 when its contactor drum failed to retract to off. Still under power, I stomped on the brakes and the current draw managed to stall the genny!

We ran at 550vdc at the Black Country due to the transformer being cheaper. There, current draw with Walsall 862 starting with a load and using auto acceleration would peak about 620A. It was a bit touch and go with the breaker (an ex tramcar one wound out as far as it would go) so a careful left foot was always in order.
Old systems used feeders at strategic points on their systems, with power ratings to match traffic flows along that particular section. One major junction in the centre of Wolverhampton was rated at about 3000A @600VDC. Some major London sections were rated at 5000A.

[Yoss]

I put a like on that because it's all I have available to me. In reality it's the best post I've read in a long time. 

[busmansholiday]

1 hour ago, Inspector Morose said:

so a careful left foot was always in order.

Arh, yes, the thing that catches out most people on trolleybuses and thirties buses is that the right hand pedal is the brake!

[Inspector Morose]

6 hours ago, Yoss said:

I put a like on that because it's all I have available to me. In reality it's the best post I've read in a long time. 

I’ve had more than my fair share of trolleybus fun; did many a year running them at BCLM when they used to have the trolleybus rallies. 
Ah, the trolleybus rallies. They were a fun* thing to organise but we did manage to resurrect some long dormant gems back into operation for a couple of weeks (and get it in ‘the book’). Gems of note off the top of my head were  of running the two surviving Walsall goldfish bowls in service for the first time since 1970, likewise running a pair of Bournemouth MF2Bs in service for the first time since 1969. Oh and arranging for the loan and movement of South Yorkshire prototype 2450 before it was donated proper to Sandtoft, then blowing up the motor genset on its first test run under our wires. One hasty removal of the offending (bloody heavy and well over specced) motor and a local rewind later and all was good again. 2450 was also too tall to be put under suspended tow down to Dudley so had to be dragged on a bar all the way. Guess who got the job of steering jockey? 

A lesser known fact was that trolleybuses could run happily with reversed polarity. This meant we could run the buses the other way around the site circuit and we did this on quite a few occasions.
Just for fun and to confuse the staff tram driver, we used to run from the top terminus as normal then stop at the tram crossing half way down the site and swap poles before the tram caught up. From there the tram runs alongside the road way so we used to roll alongside the tram, running in reverse direction to normal and wait until the tram driver twigged what was going on.

I remember on rally, the chairman pissed me off big time. The visiting buses were parked at the lower end of the circuit overnight so I spent a few hours after service one night turning them all around and parking them facing the wrong way around the circuit knowing he was running the service the next day. He didn’t speak to me for a bit after that and threatened to ban me from site. 

Aah, good times. Never to be repeated.

[LightBulbFun]

loving the details/stories about Trolly buses  (it always amazes me just how much electricity, electric vehicles draw, take the figures above, 550V times by 620A thats 341,000 watts!! and thats for a single machine!)

they are something id love to experience some day, they combine my interests of things electric and Old London buses, yet I know so relatively little about them, and have never been on one, someday hopefully ill catch a ride on one somewhere  

I mean im still trying to figure out what the saloon lighting in London Trolly buses was

see there existed dedicated traction lightbulbs (usually wired in series sets and involving some automatic shunting device in the lamp or socket for when one fails)

but these lightbulbs (unless you knew what you where looking at) looked like your regular pear shaped GLS lightbulb (or squirrel cage lamp if we are talking about a 1920's tram or such)

but from what iv seen inside London Trolly buses, they looked to use golf ball shaped lamps like what they did on on RTs, RM's and the such like

so im really curious to know what are those lamps are they your standard issue London Transport 22W 24V lamp (but  if so where did the 24V supply come from or where they still wired in series?) or where they something else that I dont yet know about?  

[High Jetter]

They were short-lived though. Have watched a few docu's on the tube, fascinating. Electric now, dontcha know?

[Mr Pastry]

2 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

I mean im still trying to figure out what the saloon lighting in London Trolly buses was

I was thinking about that.  My recollection (from 1962?) is that they had golf ball shaped lamps like RTs.  And you wouldn't run the headlamps on 600 volts either.  I would guess that there would be a motor-generator set to produce low voltage to run the lighting and the motor control system, and of course you would need a compressor set if using air brakes.  But I am guessing - @Inspector Morose?

[LightBulbFun]

39 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

I was thinking about that.  My recollection (from 1962?) is that they had golf ball shaped lamps like RTs.  And you wouldn't run the headlamps on 600 volts either.  I would guess that there would be a motor-generator set to produce low voltage to run the lighting and the motor control system, and of course you would need a compressor set if using air brakes.  But I am guessing - @Inspector Morose?

and then theres this thing which I have been able to find 0 info on which may just have run on 600V being a discharge lamp, I swear I recall finding it in an Osram GEC catalog somewhere but I just checked a few from the 1930s, 50's and 60's and was not able to find it there, what is it to be indicating for exactly I wonder...

Osglim was the Brand name GEC used on its negative glow neon lamps back when it was restricted to only being able to use its Osram band name on tungsten filement lamps and also why its carbon filament lamps where branded Robertson, but I digress

 

I did however find this in the 1938 catalog, which might give us some clues as to the mystery of the trolley bus bulbs

catalogs from the 50's and 60's do list trolly bus lamps, but the big difference is the interior lamps where all listed as having 38Mm diamiter bulbs

but all the London Transport trolleys iv "seen" have used 50Mm bulbs (again same as the RM/RT, etc)

so perhaps they used a development of the 1938 version?

heres the same section from the 1960 catalog, note no 50Mm bulbs

but I would not be surprised at all if London Transport had some sort of bespoke Light Bulb made, the interior Light bulbs used in RTs and RM's for example is a bespoke type for London Transport I have not been able to find in any period catalog (22W 24V 50Mm diameter bulb) 

[Mr Pastry]

2 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

and then theres this thing which I have been able to find 0 info on which may just have run on 600V being a discharge lamp, I swear I recall finding it in an Osram GEC catalog somewhere but I just checked a few from the 1930s, 50's and 60's and was not able to find it there, what is it to be indicating for exactly I wonder..

There is a reference in this video at about 3.44, to an indicator light fitted high up on the trolley poles (at the roadside, not on the bus) to show which way the points in the wires were set.  In which case a compact but bright 600 volt lamp would make sense.  How it works is another matter. 

 

[Inspector Morose]

London trolleybuses used 24v lighting circuits fed by a motor-generator set mounted on the chassis on the offside. 

Other operators who didn’t want the complication of all that just used series circuits of 5 110v bulbs. There generally was generally no shunt so if a bulb failed, that circuit went out. As there were three other circuits lighting the interior of the bus, it didn’t matter that much.

There was low voltage lighting for headlamps, trafficators/indicators and the cleaners lights which could be either 12v or 24v depending on preference of the operator. This simply used a battery that was charged by a dynamo belt driven from the output shaft of the traction motor via a standard control box.

On the Bradford front loaders, the lower deck side panels had resistance wire embedded into asbestos blanket material mounted behind the facia.  This 600v ‘electric blanket’ made for quite an efficient heating system and was enough to take the chill off on a cold day, the platform doors helping to keep the heat in.

[LightBulbFun]

5 hours ago, Mr Pastry said:

There is a reference in this video at about 3.44, to an indicator light fitted high up on the trolley poles (at the roadside, not on the bus) to show which way the points in the wires were set.  In which case a compact but bright 600 volt lamp would make sense.  How it works is another matter. 

 

interesting I always assumed, the lamp was for something on the trolley bus itself but you are right it could be something to do with their infrastructure as well (I know of a few odd ball London Transport specials there as well like the Dual filament 100V lamp used in London underground signalling) 

3 hours ago, Inspector Morose said:

London trolleybuses used 24v lighting circuits fed by a motor-generator set mounted on the chassis on the offside. 

Other operators who didn’t want the complication of all that just used series circuits of 5 110v bulbs. There generally was generally no shunt so if a bulb failed, that circuit went out. As there were three other circuits lighting the interior of the bus, it didn’t matter that much.

There was low voltage lighting for headlamps, trafficators/indicators and the cleaners lights which could be either 12v or 24v depending on preference of the operator. This simply used a battery that was charged by a dynamo belt driven from the output shaft of the traction motor via a standard control box.

On the Bradford front loaders, the lower deck side panels had resistance wire embedded into asbestos blanket material mounted behind the facia.  This 600v ‘electric blanket’ made for quite an efficient heating system and was enough to take the chill off on a cold day, the platform doors helping to keep the heat in.

ooh interesting! thank you for the info  (im guessing then if LT Trolleys used a standard 24V lighting circuit then they also used the standard LT issue 24V 22W lamp, I wonder in general when that lamp first came to be...)

the 5 110V bulbs you talk about, they are not the traction lamps I mentioned above are they? as the lamps themselves where often of about 110V although nominally rated by the burning current rather then voltage (because its a series string) I do wonder what they did on the gas filled ones to prevent internal arcing at end of life on the 600V supply if there was no shunt device

later at some between 1938 and 1951, Osram GEC did introduce a Lower voltage higher current traction lamp that did have an internal shunt

always found it interesting that these Low voltage ones where Edison screw only, given the high vibration setting they where to be used in id of expected them to use a bayonet base

 

[Inspector Morose]

Traction lamps are exactly what it says on the tin - lamps for traction (i.e trams, trains, trolleybuses). They were specifically extra super duper heavy duty because of the harsh environment they existed in. With voltage fluctuations, power could go up as well as down as there were some instances of operators specifying, or at least trying out, regenerative braking. Here the line voltage could rise quite high (not to Maidstone 72 levels) so lighting had to cope with that too. 

In the cab, there was the dewirement indicator with a single bulb and a buzzer that would sound if traction current was lost. At Sandtoft there used to be a multitude of dead sections for their overly complicated overhead set-up so the bus sounded like it was sending messages in Morse code every time it ran a circuit!

That London film might be showing an auto frog. Here, there was no manual operation by the conductor, the frog would operate only if the driver drew power over a particular section, hence the greater need for an indicator. Most frogs were manual ones operated by the conductor (or frog boy on particularly busy junctions or at rush hour) so there was no need for any other indication - if the poles went the wrong way, a shout and waiving conductor would suffice to draw the drivers attention that something was wrong.

I must stop going on about trolleybuses and leave you all alone.

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, Inspector Morose said:

Traction lamps are exactly what it says on the tin - lamps for traction (i.e trams, trains, trolleybuses). They were specifically extra super duper heavy duty because of the harsh environment they existed in. With voltage fluctuations, power could go up as well as down as there were some instances of operators specifying, or at least trying out, regenerative braking. Here the line voltage could rise quite high (not to Maidstone 72 levels) so lighting had to cope with that too. 

oh yes I know what they are  I was just verifying that it was that was the type of lamp you where referencing when you said 110V lamps 5 in a string  

does anyone still make dedicated traction lamps still or do museums etc just use regular 110V lamps these days I wonder

 

but the one thing I was wondering about the traction lamps is what did they do for arc suppression, even on 240V an incandescent lamp can and does arc over at end of life its why they go PINK or BANG when they burn out

see an electric arc (as you probably know) is a negative resistance thing, so the more power goes into it the more its resistance drops which allows more power to flow etc etc until something blows up (this is why discharge lamps have ballasts you need something to regulate that current flow)

so mains voltage lightbulbs (good ones anyway) have built in fusing that blows when arcing happens

but on something like a series string found in a trolley bus, this method of arc prevention does not work as the other lamps in the string will act as a ballast limiting current flow so no fuse can do its job, and as such an arc can burn away until total destruction happens, 

heres a fun video demonstrating that  

 

so in lamps used in such series strings (be it Traction lamps or 6.6A US Series street-lighting lamps etc) some alternative method of arc quenching is usually used, (normally something that just shorts the lamp should it go open circuit or an arc form)

and so im curious on these series strung traction lamps what that might be  (especially as it does say they are gas filled and are not vacuum lamps)

1 hour ago, Inspector Morose said:

In the cab, there was the dewirement indicator with a single bulb and a buzzer that would sound if traction current was lost. At Sandtoft there used to be a multitude of dead sections for their overly complicated overhead set-up so the bus sounded like it was sending messages in Morse code every time it ran a circuit!

That London film might be showing an auto frog. Here, there was no manual operation by the conductor, the frog would operate only if the driver drew power over a particular section, hence the greater need for an indicator. Most frogs were manual ones operated by the conductor (or frog boy on particularly busy junctions or at rush hour) so there was no need for any other indication - if the poles went the wrong way, a shout and waiving conductor would suffice to draw the drivers attention that something was wrong.

hah thats quite amusing, a fun mental picture of some 12 year old running across a busy london street dodging road traffic franticly switching frogs about to keep the trolley buses moving

which amusingly is quite similar to the video game Frogger LOL

1 hour ago, Inspector Morose said:

I must stop going on about trolleybuses and leave you all alone.

no no please do continue when you want to, I very much enjoy the stories and info  

Trolley buses are one of those things I find quite mysterious almost, because even Old motor buses you can still go and see them in action etc and bus rallies etc or randomly driving about as their owners take em out for a spin

but you just cant do that with a Trolley bus of course, they are outside of a few special locations, forever barred from the road! which is quite sad tbh

[MT606]

seems as you have a lightbulb fettish I have just got hold of the following lot from the wifes grandads garage clearing out of........ 50's-70's selection? not sure when 6v indictator bulbs were no longer used?

[Mr Pastry]

57 minutes ago, MT606 said:

not sure when 6v indictator bulbs were no longer used?

AFAIK the last 6 volt car produced in the UK was the Ford upright Popular in 1959, but some European models remained 6 volt until the mid 1960s.

 

[LightBulbFun]

3 hours ago, MT606 said:

seems as you have a lightbulb fettish I have just got hold of the following lot from the wifes grandads garage clearing out of........ 50's-70's selection? not sure when 6v indictator bulbs were no longer used?

Ooh thats a nice Varied selection there 1950's to 1980's id say

6V bulbs continued to get used on motorcycles for a fair while after 6V was dropped in cars so the 6V bulbs may have been for/from motorcycles or a moped etc (or a Trabant LOL)

 

 

speaking of indicators im here, finally got new rear lights for lights for REV  sadly the original pair we ordered turned out the seller did not actually have them in stock at the time, so I had to find some elsewhere, the pair I found are of the type with the clear bottom section for illuminating a numberplate when mounted horizontally, where as I need the type with the solid red bottom, but I only really need them for their good backing plate (which are the same between the 2 types) so REV's current lenses should be transferable onto the new backings

also got some head lamps on order as the good but used pair we ordered got lost in the post!, ironicly given my lighting hobby im not having much with the lights on/for my Invacar LOL the new pair look to come with some shite blue tinted H4's iv instructed Adam not to use those, hopefully the message gets through! im really not a fan of those types of bulbs LOL

otherwise not much else to report sadly, adam has still been very busy with work and such, im still eiger to hear if her Throttle cable woes and other such foibles have been solved at long last!

 

I also managed to as always accumulate a few various invalid vehicle pictures on my continued research  

like these period street pictures, iv seen a fair few from the 60's-80's but you dont often see ones from before then so there neat to see  

looks like the first is a Stanley Argson (I think I can just make out the trade market "bucket and spade" on the front of the machine)

and this one is obviously an Invacar, Mk6 with added weather protection I think  

and a nice period picture of someone with their Tippen Delta, I like how the L plate is tied on with string at a Jaunty angle  (even disregarding the fact that fibreglass is not magnetic, did Magnetic L plates even exist back then?)

also got a more recent picture of UOI8850, nice to see this one is slowly coming together still  

and a couple more period pics

and some more recent pictures

I think I have posted this Argson before, but it was in Black and white, so its neat to see a colour photo of it, do wonder what happened to it exactly, supposedly it was parked up at a Garden Centre somewhere..

it has a distinctive square front number plate (made me think it was one id seen in an Old Heywood picture, but alas that one was on retrofitted 12 inch steel wheels so not the same)

TJN352R underwraps from about 10 years ago  

]

a Tippen Delta in a french private collection (I wonder if it gets mistaken for a Sans Permis car LOL)

and finally this neat photo of TPE376S before she completely dissolved! found on one of those novelty greeting card websites, clearly someones photoshopped the plate, but its clearly the same car non the less!

[MT606]

I'm going back again in December to collect more odds n sods, a few rear lights with mounts and some switches if any are good people can have them, same goes for the bulbs/condensers etc.....

[AdgeCutler]

It's been a good while since I checked in properly and Brian has been somewhat neglected for a while as life has been somewhat of a blur. Looks like I have plenty of posts to catch up on in the thread.

Anyhow a few little jobs have been done including a new door rail and the two front floor mounts being fabricated.

I'll be back to completing the new chassis before too long with a little luck.

 

[Mrs6C]

14 minutes ago, AdgeCutler said:

Anyhow a few little jobs have been done including a new door rail and the two front floor mounts being fabricated.

I'll be back to completing the new chassis before too long with a little luck.

Well done!

[LightBulbFun]

18 minutes ago, AdgeCutler said:

It's been a good while since I checked in properly and Brian has been somewhat neglected for a while as life has been somewhat of a blur. Looks like I have plenty of posts to catch up on in the thread.

Anyhow a few little jobs have been done including a new door rail and the two front floor mounts being fabricated.

I'll be back to completing the new chassis before too long with a little luck.

 

Oh awesome! I had been wondering recently how you and Brian where doing given it has been a little bit since we last saw a post  

glad to hear things are progressing still with Brian  I look forward to seeing more! 

and I hope the rest of things are going well with yourself  

[AdgeCutler]

Yep, all fine here thanks Dez, it's all just been a very crazy time with work, work, work, responsibilities, family, favours, a few more of them and a bit more.  I do like to moan about it at times, "Ee wunt be 'appy if ee wunt moaning" but I do bring a lot of it on myself and I'm happy with the life I've forged apart from when playtime becomes short. Ssshhhhhh, don't tell anyone!

[somewhatfoolish]

10 hours ago, MT606 said:

seems as you have a lightbulb fettish I have just got hold of the following lot from the wifes grandads garage clearing out of........ 50's-70's selection? not sure when 6v indictator bulbs were no longer used?

Given how terrible new condensers are these days there would probably be a few customers for those nice NOS Lucas condensers here.

[LightBulbFun]

Today (well yesterday if you want to be technical LOL)

was a big day today!

not only was it REV's 45th Birthday  

but at long last after over 2 years in the making with regard to REV, she is home! Finally! its quite the momentous occasion for me, and in general its been over 3 years in the making from when I first started hunting for a Model 70, I have my very own Model 70 at home!

I give a massive thanks to @adam1db for taking her on for me and getting her road legal and @st185cs for moving her between locations for me

now the journey of my personal independence can finally start hopefully!

it was all a bit sudden and touch and go hence why theres not been many posts about it! but she is finally home Woo!

not yet had a drive as it was quite late when she arrived but hopefully tomorrow I will do so  

I am very much looking forward to it, hell it was just nice to sit in her for the first time in forever  

but I am also quite nervous LOL this will be my first time driving on my own without someone else with me on the public highway and the first time on the public highway in my Invacar! 

main thing im hoping is I really hope she has good brakes now LOL

and there are a few smaller bits and bobs that ideally need sorting out like her twist grip still needs replacing and general throttle cable setup is still very stiff/takes a fair bit of force to actuate and I have been told that she apparently has developed a charging fault where the light goes out when you get moving as it does normally, but comes back on once your at speed, which is a bit of a weird fault not one iv heard of before!

but we will see if that crops up or not tomorrow! I just need to stop thinking about all the things that could potentially go wrong and start thinking about all the good things!

 

in the meantime heres a few pics from the collection caper from Adams to Mine  

hopefully tommorow ill have pictures of her parked outside my local chippy or something such  

once again many thanks to @adam1db and @st185cs for everything and many thanks to everyone else who has been involved and supported me during these 2 years! 

heres to the next 2 and many more as they say!

[Eyersey1234]

Chodtastic news well done @LightBulbFun

[JJ0063]

Great news!

 

If you haven’t already sorted something, please please please buy some decent security for it.

 

If I recall you live in London? This will be very easy to break into and hot wire for a joy rider. Get yourself as much obvious security as you can, be it a wheel clamp, some kind of steering lock if you can, a battery isolator etc too. 

Get a Sold Secure Gold motorbike chain, literally anything and everything you can.

Id hate for you to lose it after all this effort but I know from my job how much vehicle theft goes on in the world!

[Mrs6C]

Just realised that the last picture is REV's parking space behind your neighbour's SD1! That space has been waiting all these years for a smoll Invacar to turn up and fill it!

[brownnova]

This is superb news!! Honestly, from the day you joined (and much longer too) this is all you have wanted... and now you've got it! 

 

Enjoy it.  

And I thoroughly expect you to do AS zoom from inside Rev this week like I did when I bought the TransSport!

[LightBulbFun]

Thanks all   it happened all so suddenly its still a bit hard to believe it happened, but I just checked and she is still there!  

indeed security is one of those things I have thought quite a bit about I have some ideas, but I am also worried if I do something like put a big fuck off chain around one of her chassis legs and tie her to a lamp post, that might draw more attention to herself, but it is an idea I am thinking with!

40 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

Just realised that the last picture is REV's parking space behind your neighbour's SD1! That space has been waiting all these years for a smoll Invacar to turn up and fill it!

indeed its amusing just how well she fits in there! and quite impressive that @st185cs managed to squeeze her in there! I just hope Ill be able to squeeze her back in there after my drive!

35 minutes ago, brownnova said:

This is superb news!! Honestly, from the day you joined (and much longer too) this is all you have wanted... and now you've got it! 

 

Enjoy it.  

And I thoroughly expect you to do AS zoom from inside Rev this week like I did when I bought the TransSport!

Yeah! Just crossing all of the appendages now I have it, that I hope I can keep it going!

and Yeah the thought did cross my mind!  ill have to see if I can at least for a short period of time! (ill have to tether my iPad to my Phone which means finally activating my PAYGO phone voucher I have managed to nurse along for about 2 months now LOL)

[gm]

Excellent news - I hope you have a fantastic weekend and enjoy every minute that you have been waiting so long for  

+1 on some good security, that would be a very obvious target for drunken idiots on the way home from the pub