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LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...


LightBulbFun

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Might be worth you asking Adam how all of his that have handlebars are set up with their cables and routing, both underneath the car and in the cabin, also where the outer cable is fixed, how long the inner and outer cables are and how the necessary slack to allow full handlebar movement is addressed.

It should be easy enough for him to get these things checked, photographed and measured when next they are in the workshop, if he doesn't know already.

I think your cable is a generic one that just happened to be of sufficient length to use on the day, rather than being the specific correct one for the car, so you aren't really starting from the 'correct' datum point there either.

 

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7 hours ago, Mrs6C said:

Might be worth you asking Adam how all of his that have handlebars are set up with their cables and routing, both underneath the car and in the cabin, also where the outer cable is fixed, how long the inner and outer cables are and how the necessary slack to allow full handlebar movement is addressed.

It should be easy enough for him to get these things checked, photographed and measured when next they are in the workshop, if he doesn't know already.

I think your cable is a generic one that just happened to be of sufficient length to use on the day, rather than being the specific correct one for the car, so you aren't really starting from the 'correct' datum point there either.

Yeah Ill have to see if he knows anything I know he mentioned at one point that he found an off the shelf throttle cable which worked (but required slight modification at the carb end) Ill have to see if I can find the link to that again

EDIT: found the link! :) https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/301679274597

although looking at that it might actually be the end which goes into the twist grip that would need its ferrule  changing but im not 100% sure

 

BTW @Zelandeth just wondering when you fitted the new fuel sender and gauge set to TPA did the sender unit come with any instructions inside its tube?

I was just looking at this photo that Adam sent me a few months ago and realise those instructions might give us a clue as to the exact pinout of things :) 

64996546417__8D008655-F252-45A8-9C34-401098E4ADAD.thumb.jpeg.5b55c844881fa18a83b7bdc307cc2433.jpeg

(curiously No gauge was actually found inside, I wonder if someone back in the day pinched it for another car and then just put it back on the shelf!)

but speaking of the gauge itself I was just looking at this photo of a NOS one and noticed the Second hand one I have on hand is missing the gold coloured bracket, wonder if thats needed to fit the gauge or if it serves some other role?

image.png.6d87ac1c3103eb908890d470a13054fb.png

(good thing I spotted it before I pulled the old gauge out!)

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18 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

in other news, came across a couple interesting things :) 

first of all one for @quicksilver its a Kit Bashed AC Acedes Model 57 :) 

https://amodelrailway.blogspot.com/2010_07_01_archive.html

unnamed.jpg.b99fee79bd0bb5ae97e2c63956147888.jpg

I love the attention to details especially with regards to the rear lights/indicator placement :) but its a shame they got the colour entirely wrong for a Model 57!

(but from what I can gather they where working off Black and white photos only)

That's brilliant! Pity the photos of the finished model are so tiny we can't really appreciate the craftsmanship. The colour looks pretty accurate for a Model 70 so it's a shame the 57s weren't the same colour.

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 decided last night to go ahead and purchase this from Big Al

image.thumb.png.8bc743e5a7e1e1a62a89b7e8d34f4ba3.png

tis a complete Model 70 Twist grip and throttle cable set, almost identical to the one Zel had/has on TPA I think! :) 

it stung a little at £40, but prices of new cables of a similar length where about £25 with no guarantee they would fit, I Just hope this used one turns out to be usable and not completely fucked inside or such given it is a used pull

Im not sure how I am going to go about fitting it, but at least here if nothing else I will have a known good pattern to show to people!

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I think that new twist grip and cable will save you a faff Dez, good investment I'd say and it looks to have a mid way oiler/grease nipple which will be good way to keep things smooth and long lived.

On the Brian front the next sub project is on the bench and now in pieces awaiting measurements to be taken and drawings made for a new skin and end plate. In the mean time I await the arrival of a new A3 Imperial graph paper pad and new batteries for my Verniers as both ran out with the last "Brian" drawings made. 

Also Mrs6C has found a correct door handle on the Ebay which has been secured so we now both have one of them.

262985308_290908346293307_6250122318134990417_n.jpg

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That is pretty cheap as classic car parts go, Dez. 

I think the thing you're missing is the metal ferrule which locates in the twist grip and the end of the cable outer then sits in.  Afraid I don't have a decent photo on hand, this is about the best I can find.

IMG_20211204_215523.thumb.jpg.30661b24e20112617ebc1b088e6f0c2c.jpg

The rubber boot over the end of the cable is mainly just a cosmetic finisher I think. 

IMG_20211204_220102.thumb.jpg.d4b3bc8d1b5dcde825545b9f5a584683.jpg

In a motorcycle application it might also help to keep the weather from getting into the cable I guess.

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1 hour ago, Zelandeth said:

That is pretty cheap as classic car parts go, Dez. 

Yeah I wouldn't complain if it was or known good etc, but its a used pulled part, from Big al, From Oddingley where KPL and KPU came from, so im understandably a little bit apprehensive, but hopefully it will be alright :) 

1 hour ago, Zelandeth said:

I think the thing you're missing is the metal ferrule which locates in the twist grip and the end of the cable outer then sits in.  Afraid I don't have a decent photo on hand, this is about the best I can find.

IMG_20211204_215523.thumb.jpg.30661b24e20112617ebc1b088e6f0c2c.jpg

The rubber boot over the end of the cable is mainly just a cosmetic finisher I think. 

IMG_20211204_220102.thumb.jpg.d4b3bc8d1b5dcde825545b9f5a584683.jpg

In a motorcycle application it might also help to keep the weather from getting into the cable I guess.

the current setup on REV has a ferrule on the end, but theres nothing that clamps it to the twist grip if that makes sense, it just goes into a hole and sits against a stop if I pull on the outer I can pull it away from the stop and out of the twist grip, which cant be right, there must be something to clamp the outer to to the twist grip body but I cant see anything

tis worth noting the current setup has no nut like your one does so thats something I might be missing

(BTW did the rubber boot thingy come with your new twist grip? as I notice its not present in the picture with the old twist grip)

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I think the boot was on the twist grip from KPL originally...could be wrong though, it's been a while!

The cable outer should sit reasonably snugly against the twist grip without anything needing to fasten it there.  By pulling the sheath of the cable away from the twist grip you are essentially doing the same thing as twisting the grip if that makes sense.  If the cable outer won't sit snugly against the grip that suggests that the cable is too slack.  Though given the number of people who have looked at this I'm sure it's not that simple!

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Even if the new cable is not 100% working when it arrives, it will be a damn sight easier to inspect/investigate/service/repair with it off the car than the one currently fitted to yours.  Make sure you lubricate it thoroughly before fitting. 

Fitting should* be possible with a piece of string securely fixed to the end of the old cable before pulling it out, then attached to the new cable and pulling back through in the opposite direction. 

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30 minutes ago, Crackers said:

Even if the new cable is not 100% working when it arrives, it will be a damn sight easier to inspect/investigate/service/repair with it off the car than the one currently fitted to yours.  Make sure you lubricate it thoroughly before fitting. 

yeah thats what im hoping to achieve :) 

speaking of, does anyone have any good recommendations with regards to the correct lubrication for it?

I imagine it would would want some fairly thin oil, (I have some penetrating fluid on hand, but not sure if thats taking things a bit too far!)

34 minutes ago, Crackers said:

Fitting should* be possible with a piece of string securely fixed to the end of the old cable before pulling it out, then attached to the new cable and pulling back through in the opposite direction. 

Ooh thats a good idea! I had the thought of tying/taping one end of one throttle cable to the other and pulling the whole lot through, but I was worried the connection in the middle might snag on something but your idea with using string sounds like a much better idea avoiding that particular  issue :) 

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The fact the outer cable can be pulled out of the recess in the twist grip would indicate it's not tight enough. Is all the adjustment used up at the engine end? Would it be a possibility to route the new cable inside the car and leave the old one in place, with the ends either coiled up or snipped off. ? I know it's nice to keep things original, but sometimes it's necessary to do what's expedient, as with the fuel pump. Getting underneath doesn't look very feasible at the moment. Good luck with it. If you need any bits making, I've got a small lathe at home. Made a friend a spindle bush for a 1953 BSA motorbike a few months ago. 

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Don't use penetrating oil as a lubricant as it is not a lubricant! Most use parrafin as a base. What you want is a nice thin oil, 3 in 1 is perfect (used to be available in Woolworths but that does not help much) or some machine oil such as that sold for air tools. If you dont have any available, some engine oil will do. Warm it up to reduce viscosity when applying, it thickening up once in will not hurt.

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1 hour ago, Saabnut said:

Don't use penetrating oil as a lubricant as it is not a lubricant! Most use parrafin as a base. What you want is a nice thin oil, 3 in 1 is perfect (used to be available in Woolworths but that does not help much) or some machine oil such as that sold for air tools. If you dont have any available, some engine oil will do. Warm it up to reduce viscosity when applying, it thickening up once in will not hurt.

Yeah thats what I thought! thanks for the recommendation on what I should use :)  I have ordered some 3 in 1 Oil from Amazon

and I also got a 1.5 Tone scissor jack (one that has a flat rubber block for its lifting surface so ideal for the box sections of a Model 70 chassis :) ), even if cant climb under the car, I figured it would be a good thing to have on hand, say if I need to check if a brake is binding or if someone else visits and wants to have a look underneath! while being "light" enough that I can lug it downstairs if I have to, (and for those wondering I was already very kindly given a pair of axel stands by @Mrs6C and @Six-cylinder :) )

 

2 hours ago, Dobloseven said:

The fact the outer cable can be pulled out of the recess in the twist grip would indicate it's not tight enough. Is all the adjustment used up at the engine end? Would it be a possibility to route the new cable inside the car and leave the old one in place, with the ends either coiled up or snipped off. ? I know it's nice to keep things original, but sometimes it's necessary to do what's expedient, as with the fuel pump. Getting underneath doesn't look very feasible at the moment. Good luck with it. If you need any bits making, I've got a small lathe at home. Made a friend a spindle bush for a 1953 BSA motorbike a few months ago. 

Yeah seeing the slack there is flopping around in the cabin im inclined to think that my existing throttle cable is too long and needs trimming, I think when its adjusted at the engine end all the force to push it against the twist grip just gets lost in the slack if that makes sense

now that I hopefully have a known good cable on the way, I might try trimming the existing cable and see if I can get anywhere with that :) 

but thanks for the offer incase I need any small bits and bobs machined up, thats much appreciated :) 

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@LightBulbFun Its the path that the cable take that needs to be got right first before the new one is fitted, I still think that has a lot to do with it. Before fitting, hang the new cable up straight (from your balcony) and feed some 3in1 oil into it so it goes the whole length, and make sure the inner moves easily in side the outer.

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18 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

Yeah seeing the slack there is flopping around in the cabin im inclined to think that my existing throttle cable is too long and needs trimming, I think when its adjusted at the engine end all the force to push it against the twist grip just gets lost in the slack if that makes sense

now that I hopefully have a known good cable on the way, I might try trimming the existing cable and see if I can get anywhere with that

I would not cut the cable you have, I am still convinced it is the path it takes from handle to carb causing the problem . If it is too long, there may be a way of "loosing" the extra with finding the appropriate path. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
10 minutes ago, JJ0063 said:

Stolen from FB, spotted today

95B7BEAA-F76A-443B-B6D5-DA6888E9AC65.jpeg

Ooh! thats very cool! thanks for sharing :) @Zelandeth you have properly been papped in TPA at long last! a very neat photo :) 

only took what 3 years! always seen but never photographed until now! there will always be someone who comments "Oh I know of one of those that hurtles around MK!" but no ones ever managed to get a decent photo until now

and heres the link :) https://www.facebook.com/groups/1940723526249203?multi_permalinks=3249242018730674&hoisted_section_header_type=recently_seen

7 minutes ago, JJ0063 said:

Don’t know if you’ve seen this @LightBulbFunbut someone on FB posted it in the comments

5901BDF7-4113-4BD8-AD6F-4C1A9A37AE04.jpeg

this one I have seen a few times :)  if your curious heres some more details on it :) 

On 03/12/2021 at 02:46, LightBulbFun said:

and then I also found the source of the Crashed FOO179H Invacar Mk12 pictures :) 

https://www.bcthic.org/View_Archive?ODE3M3wxMjl8fHw=

goes to show that you dont instantly die a painful and agonising death if you get into an accident in an Invacar as most people would have you believe! (poor Invacar tho would have only been about year old!)

 

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7 minutes ago, JJ0063 said:

I assume you’ve searched that group in the past? Quite a few pics of different Invacars, quite a few photos I’ve not seen on here before 

indeed I have and a few others :) and I regularly search the internet daily for new photographs as well of course :) 

(hence why its a bit of a game to try and find an Invacar Photo that I have not already seen before :mrgreen: )

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for those wondering about REV, a couple weeks ago I had to do some physically exhausting things around the house which has left me a bit flat on my arse so to speak

however funny that posts should be made to my thread now as I am planning on hopefully doing some more work on REV finally tomorrow in-fact :), sadly the throttle cable I bought from Big Al has still not been posted and I have no idea when it will be sadly

but @CaptainBoom did kindly send me a grab bag of various washers (and some PTFE tape), so im hoping in the meantime I might be able to use one to act as a reducer/stop to allow me to use my existing skinny throttle cable with my non-knackered twist grip which expects a thicker throttle cable/end ferrule 

and ill try oil the cable with the 3 in 1 Oil I got from amazon a few days ago

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@Zelandeth @dollywobbler Did either manage to get pics of the throttle cable path for @LightBulbFun ? Before you do anything with the cable,  confirm the path.  I am convinced once that is right, it will be the answer.   Remember the trick for oiling the cable by hanging it from the balcony.    Sorry I cannot get to you before January sometime. 

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went to do a bit more work on REV, but sadly was not able to get much done (which is quite frustrating as its very painful for me to make these outings, so id like to have at least got my moneys worth out of the pain!)

found a good looking washer but pretty quickly realised that it was not going to work as the bobbin at the end would not pass through the hole (id have to pull the entire inner out and thread it through the washer first)

2085659615_IMG_01111.thumb.JPG.e23dbd65a4c44df1c08cb355da51fd88.JPG

and then I noticed at the carb end the throttle cable outer had actually come away from ferrule on that end, so that cant be helping things!

1682051671_IMG_01062.thumb.JPG.e9c0d8f0e30187801c178eb75dae87c5.JPG

I then had a look at the routing of the cable 

116363508_IMG_01071.thumb.JPG.d110a495d00e4a505024157df4992a9a.JPG

(if I pulled the outer into the cabin I could pull this bent bit straight)

1628919835_IMG_01081.thumb.JPG.d45b2fbb7bc9aa9fec0afdae808e6ea5.JPG

749923015_IMG_01092.thumb.JPG.2ae4e72a3e2e9c4379b5f9978bcb3ba6.JPG

I also noticed the cable was coming out of the right hand hole in the bulkhead rather then the left hand hole like it does on most other Model 70's but I seem to recall we moved it to the right hand hole at the FoD to try and make it smoother, and indeed when I moved it to the left hand hole it got even stiffer!

1265769433_IMG_01051.thumb.JPG.d8211e4a81b56e9a6ab5e99c0611c8f0.JPG

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16 minutes ago, Crackers said:

That bend halfway through the cable run won't be helping matters. Looks too long.

yeah I have a feeling the cable is a bit too long given the slack it has

If I pull on the cable I can straighten it out but then all the slack is just moved to the cabin and if I push the slack out of the cabin it bends along the run as you see

I have thought about shortening it but not sure how exactly to go about shorting the outer, especially seeing as the carb end has pulled out of the the threaded ferrule, which im not quite sure how to handle in and of itself

(and there is still the overarching question of is it even run properly) 

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Re. washer.    You can cut a slit in the washer to pass it over the inner cable, and the washer will then fit over the shouldered end of the outer cable, which I take it is the requirement.  Just needs a saw cut. 

Then what happens at the carb end?  How does the inner cable attach to the throttle lever? It looks like it just wants pulling through a bit further. 

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