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LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...


LightBulbFun

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58 minutes ago, SiC said:

 

 


I thought the twist grip would have been changed by now after completely giving up. That was pretty fubar when the cable snapped on me.

Did you ever get the tyres changed on this? I remember the canvas bulging out of the treads and sidewalls alarmingly.

 

we tried to replace the twist grip at the FoD but after first accidentally grabbing a Left hand twist grip, it turned out the Right hand twist grips we had would not work with the new throttle outer that was fitted

as the diameter of the throttle outer and its ferrule was too small for the twist grip throttle outer section, it was like trying to put a T8 fluorescent tube into a T12 Terry clip if that makes sense!

and yeah the Tyres got changed a good while back at the FoD :) 

57 minutes ago, SiC said:

When purplebargken and I put the new cable in, we put it in following the existing route.

well thats one the things I have been wondering about, as she did not start out life as a handle bar machine originally she was some sort of foot control machine

(whether this meant steering wheel/Tiller with foot pedals or literally foot control as in foot steering etc I dont know, all I do know is she has a section of floor covering missing and a screw hole in the floor where Model 70's dont normally!)

it was only in 1985 did she gain standard handle bar controls fitted by/for her second owner Dennis webb to suit his own disabilities, so theres nothing to say that the existing Route was/is correct! and maybe is why the original throttle cable was so fubar? who knows! some interesting food for thought tho

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Well done! I've also replaced the inner cable on mine. It was sticky for a short time but the lube we squirted into the cable eventually had an effect and it's now ok.

The inner cable should go through a ferule on the manifold, then up to the carb. I'd be tempted to disconnect the cable at the carb just to check it isn't the carb spindle itself sticking. Then I'd just squirt plenty of lube into the outer and see if that improves matters (connect it back to the carb first!). 

I think these lengthy cables were always a bit of a weakness, and years of inactivity won't have helped.

Top tip to remember. If it does ever run away on you and the throttle won't shut off, turn the engine off. You will still be able to stop as there is no servo. It's one of those 'old car' skills that's easy to lose sight of in a panic.

 

 

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Just now, dollywobbler said:

Well done! I've also replaced the inner cable on mine. It was sticky for a short time but the lube we squirted into the cable eventually had an effect and it's now ok.

The inner cable should go through a ferule on the manifold, then up to the carb. I'd be tempted to disconnect the cable at the carb just to check it isn't the carb spindle itself sticking. Then I'd just squirt plenty of lube into the outer and see if that improves matters (connect it back to the carb first!). 

I think these lengthy cables were always a bit of a weakness, and years of inactivity won't have helped.

Top tip to remember. If it does ever run away on you and the throttle won't shut off, turn the engine off. You will still be able to stop as there is no servo. It's one of those 'old car' skills that's easy to lose sight of in a panic.

 

 

Just to add further to this. You can pull the inner all the way out of the outer and check it for any old grease or muck that would cause a bind.

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38 minutes ago, dollywobbler said:

Well done! I've also replaced the inner cable on mine. It was sticky for a short time but the lube we squirted into the cable eventually had an effect and it's now ok.

The inner cable should go through a ferule on the manifold, then up to the carb. I'd be tempted to disconnect the cable at the carb just to check it isn't the carb spindle itself sticking. Then I'd just squirt plenty of lube into the outer and see if that improves matters (connect it back to the carb first!). 

I think these lengthy cables were always a bit of a weakness, and years of inactivity won't have helped.

Top tip to remember. If it does ever run away on you and the throttle won't shut off, turn the engine off. You will still be able to stop as there is no servo. It's one of those 'old car' skills that's easy to lose sight of in a panic.

 

 

Thanks! :) 

yeah all the hardware at the carb end is how it should be (at least it looks like it!) its a good shout on giving the cable a good lube! just wondering what I should use as the lubricant, I have some Penetrating fluid and some white Lithium grease with aerosol cans and some 20W50 and EP90 as well of course

and yeah with regards to running away I always tell people as well who are driving a Model 70 for the first time that if it runs away or you feel like your not in control that you can just whack/smash the gear lever backwards which will knock it out of gear and disconnect drive

it is worth noting to be aware that there are Model 70's out there with vacuum brake assist servos fitted, REV does not have one, but @Mrs6C's Model 70 is an example with one fitted :)  (most unusually in the rear, normally the brake servo would live under the front service hatch)

37 minutes ago, dollywobbler said:

Just to add further to this. You can pull the inner all the way out of the outer and check it for any old grease or muck that would cause a bind.

well thats the thing both the inner and out cables on REV had been replaced with NOS items so should in theory at least be free of any old grunge or anything causing issues,

but clearly someting is up

ill have to look into it tomorrow! i was initially reluctant to touch the throttle cable, since it seems to be a bit of a dark art as to getting to play ball, however since Its back to its old tricks again then I have nothing to lose!

 

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5 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

ill have to look into it tomorrow! i was initially reluctant to touch the throttle cable, since it seems to be a bit of a dark art as to getting to play ball, however since Its back to its old tricks again then I have nothing to lose!

I would think twice before pulling the inner cable right out, because it may be a problem getting it back in if it is long and follows a difficult route.  The end of the inner cable tends to catch on the insides of the outer and unravel, and then you are stuck.  I would squirt some penetrating oil or whatever down both ends if you can, and see how it is then.   You may find that a stronger or additional return spring will help - even a strong elastic band if you don't have anything else.  Good to see it all coming together anyway.

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Make sure the spring that runs from the air cleaner to the throttle arm is present... that's critical and the throttle will absolutely not return without it.  Scared myself half to death and nearly deafened myself with that one more than once.

IMG_20211121_011755.thumb.jpg.01b07c2f3feae6d2ebcee09e9b2f67a6.jpg

The most finnicky bit I found regarding the cable routing was trying to make sure the cable wasn't kinked where it passes over the heater crossover hose between the left and right sides of the fan shroud.  I think it was originally routed under it and tended to stick a bit.

Don't seem to have a photo of that handy...but here's one showing where my fuel pump is as that's kind of relevant to what you've been up to.

IMG_20210330_175320.thumb.jpg.4816e2dff4076f007af877060ae590b5.jpg

Helpfully the pump in my case was almost exactly the same diameter as a Lada ignition coil...and I just happened to have the bracket left over from that from when I did the injection conversion on my Riva (which used a coil pack so didn't use the original coil).  So I bolted that bracket onto the top fuel tank strap.

 

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1 hour ago, Zelandeth said:

Make sure the spring that runs from the air cleaner to the throttle arm is present... that's critical and the throttle will absolutely not return without it.  Scared myself half to death and nearly deafened myself with that one more than once.

IMG_20211121_011755.thumb.jpg.01b07c2f3feae6d2ebcee09e9b2f67a6.jpg

The most finnicky bit I found regarding the cable routing was trying to make sure the cable wasn't kinked where it passes over the heater crossover hose between the left and right sides of the fan shroud.  I think it was originally routed under it and tended to stick a bit.

yeah I made sure to re attach the spring when I was reinstalling the air cleaner assembly :) and its present in the video I took so its not gone ping into space or such thankfully!

I did notice on the throttle cable run that as it ran under the heater crossover hose that its put under a bit of tension by it, which I cant imagine is helping matters, ill add re-routing it to run over the pipe to the list of things to hopefully try tomorrow :) 

the other thing I noticed with regards to throttle cables is on most other Model 70's I noticed the throttle cable comes into the cabin goes straight up then turns 90 degrees more or less then in another straight line runs along the bottom of the dashboard into the twist grip, but on REV it seems to be all droopy and not very defined at all if that makes sense,

so it would be interesting to have some shots of how TPA's throttle cable is run from the bulkhead and under the dashboard to twist grip :) 

 

I also seem to recall that with regards to your throttle cable that the inner cable preferred being fed into the outer from one specific direction, I do wonder if something similar is going on here

(although the Inner cable on REV, being a pre-made Model 70 part, has a premaritally attached thingy on the end for the twist grip so it can only be fed into the outer cable from the cabin/twist grip end, whether thats the way the outer wants it is another matter)

I also know the previous owner of REV mentioned the throttle cable outers had some sort inner lining you could pull out of them, meant they munched through inner cables more often but made them much smoother to operate apparently? not 100% sure on the details there however

1 hour ago, Zelandeth said:

Don't seem to have a photo of that handy...but here's one showing where my fuel pump is as that's kind of relevant to what you've been up to.

IMG_20210330_175320.thumb.jpg.4816e2dff4076f007af877060ae590b5.jpg

Helpfully the pump in my case was almost exactly the same diameter as a Lada ignition coil...and I just happened to have the bracket left over from that from when I did the injection conversion on my Riva (which used a coil pack so didn't use the original coil).  So I bolted that bracket onto the top fuel tank strap.

 

yeah your setup looks much more substantial (and neater) then mine! :) 

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Don't think which way the cable is fed in will affect operation, I just found it easier to thread through from the cabin end, it tended to snag if going in from the engine end.

Not the clearest photo but this sort of shows the routing in the cabin.  If I manage to unearth her in the garage tomorrow I'll  try to get a clear (and current) photo.

IMG_20210215_172151.thumb.jpg.3fb39515ffd20d223575ce36c7cd7746.jpg

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8 hours ago, Mr Pastry said:

I would think twice before pulling the inner cable right out, because it may be a problem getting it back in if it is long and follows a difficult route.  The end of the inner cable tends to catch on the insides of the outer and unravel, and then you are stuck.  I would squirt some penetrating oil or whatever down both ends if you can, and see how it is then.   You may find that a stronger or additional return spring will help - even a strong elastic band if you don't have anything else.  Good to see it all coming together anyway.

If you pull the inner out to clean it, first, squirt something like WD40 down both ends of the outer. Before putting the inner back in after cleaning it, tin the end with solder to prevent the strands from separating as it is pushed in.  ("tin" means to heat the wire with a soldering iron and melt a small amount if solder into it)

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so @bobdisk very kindly came down to help me with further tinkering on REV :) 

however sadly neither one of us could get the throttle cable to play ball (we also tried fitting the replacement twist grip that @Mrs6C kindly brought down, however it has the same issue as the others we tried back at the FoD in that the outer cable and ferrule is too skinny for it)

we also looked at replacing REV's fuel gauge with the veglia one @Mrs6C also brought down :)  for the veglia fuel sender REV has installed, however it has 3 terminals on it which we where not quite expecting so we are wondering @Zelandeth if you remember which wire did what on the fuel sender unit with regards to the fuel gage (the fuel sender unit has a black a yellow and a red wire coming from it into a little connector which obviously go with the 3 terminals on the fuel gauge, but we are not sure which are which exactly)

however I very much still appreciate the time and effort @bobdisk took to come down and help. even if we could not achieve what we had hoped to have done! and at least I got another nice 80's street scene photo out of it :) 

image.thumb.png.002cf5e56683dde1a01f1ad7a7c8f8c8.png

(with REV's good side on show for once! she contrasts well with the bright orange of the kitten, just need someone to photoshop some appropriate retroreflective plates on the kitten :) )

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7 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

however sadly neither one of us could get the throttle cable to play ball

Just a thought... if the outer cable were to be fixed in place at close and regular intervals where it goes up into and runs inside the cabin, perhaps it would be able to flex less in itself and the inner cable would then move against a fixed rather than a moving surface. This may help the inner cable to run more cleanly. Perhaps you could have a go with your cable ties and see if it makes any difference? Obviously, the runs will need to be smooth and suitably sweeping arcs rather than right angles. I suspect also that your throttle grip doesn't rotate as cleanly as it should and this may well be the main issue, but it's worth reducing the other potential variables.

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29 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

Just a thought... if the outer cable were to be fixed in place at close and regular intervals where it goes up into and runs inside the cabin, perhaps it would be able to flex less in iself and the inner cable would then move against a fixed rather than a moving surface. This may help the inner cable to run more cleanly. Perhaps you could have a go with your cable ties and see if it makes any difference? Obviously, the runs will need to be smooth and suitably sweeping arcs rather than right angles. I suspect also that your throttle grip doesn't rotate as cleanly as it should and this may well be the main issue, but it's worth reducing the other potential variables.

Yeah I have thought about having a further play with things at some point, but its one of those annoying issues where it does not always fail reliably

so I have inherent distrust of it now LOL

because you can fiddle with it and it can appear to be working fine one moment but then play up the next as @bobdisk got to see first hand!

indeed I dont think the knackered twist grip is helping matters but none we have tried want to fit the throttle cable outer and its ferrule! (I guess we got lucky in that regards that REV's knackered pre-existing twist grip happened to fit this odd ball throttle cable outer LOL)

and then theres the over arching issue of its still far too stiff to actuate, which cant be right and i think is part of the issue (and id like to solve this issue if nothing else just so its not so featuring to operate! I find you have to properly wrench on it to get it to WOT and the throttle cable inner is showing signs of unhappiness as a result of this as well)

 

I feel the solution would be to just replace the whole lot again

but as mentioned I dont think anyone here has ever had need to replaced a Model 70 throttle cable outer before so we have no idea exactly how it should be run/where it should be fixed to/tied down too etc!

and Im not sure I have the physical dexterity to run a new throttle cable on my own! 

so yeah im not sure what im going to do now given its pretty much stumped everyone who frequents at the FoD at this point!

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I'd need to actually look at the fuel sender, but there are two wires which are used for the gauge sender, the third one is for the low fuel light (think it provides a ground from memory, so you'd need to find an ignition switched feed for it), obviously not on the original wiring diagrams as the Smith's gauges didn't have the light.

Have to admit that wiring that up is still firmly buried in the "I'll get to it one day" list on TPA.  Gauge is accurate enough and I never run my cars low enough to see the lights regularly anyway.  Well...aside from the Ladas anyway, but that's because they used to start blinking it at you from about 2/3rds of a tank depending on which direction you were turning at any given time rather than having any real relation to the actual quantity of fuel in the tank.

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13 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

I'd need to actually look at the fuel sender, but there are two wires which are used for the gauge sender, the third one is for the low fuel light (think it provides a ground from memory, so you'd need to find an ignition switched feed for it), obviously not on the original wiring diagrams as the Smith's gauges didn't have the light.

Have to admit that wiring that up is still firmly buried in the "I'll get to it one day" list on TPA.  Gauge is accurate enough and I never run my cars low enough to see the lights regularly anyway.  Well...aside from the Ladas anyway, but that's because they used to start blinking it at you from about 2/3rds of a tank depending on which direction you were turning at any given time rather than having any real relation to the actual quantity of fuel in the tank.

interesting, we noticed that the 2 bulbs each had their own wire/terminal coming out the back, but im guessing that was just the 12V in and as you say there will be a connection going back out for the low fuel warning light in one of the 3 terminals

I think ill have a play with a DMM and see if I can figure out whats what :) (because If I can figure out at least what one is then the rest should hopefully fall into place, although that still would not tell us what the pinout of the sender unit is!)

BTW when you fitted TPA with her proper capacitor in place of the condenser did you measure the value of the old condenser or did you just eyeball it? as funnily enough while me and @bobdisk where at things we checked the capacitance value of the condenser on REV and it came out to bang on 0.22Uf, so you where spot on with your replacement capacitor values :) 

(and that also tells me that REV's condenser is fine, at least capacitance value wise when cold! what it s like when its hot etc I dont know! so id still like to replace it with a proper capacitor for peace of mind at some point)

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for those curious heres the back of the gauge

image.thumb.png.198c85d463b79b10077652494bcedfb0.png

the Ground and positive terminals are pretty self explanatory, but then theres the mystery common terminal, which im Guessing is where the fuel sender unit's variable resistor hooks up to

but then on the sender uni there are 3 wires coming from it, a black wire a red wire and a yellow wire

now I presume the black wire will be ground, but the question is which of the coloured wires does what, one will be for the actual variable resistor in the sender unit that goes back to the gauge, and the other will be the switch that pulls the low fuel warning light to ground to turn it on when the Go Go Juice runs low

the question is which is which (and being Italian I would not be surprised if my presumption of black being ground is actually wrong LOL)

theres also the fun that @Zelandeth's Model 70 being an earlier one does not have any sort of voltage stabiliser for the gauges where as REV being a later Model 70 does have one and im not sure how that plays into things with regards to the veglia gauge and sender set

and I still need to figure out exactly how to remove the old gauge from the dash and mount this one!

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6 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

I still need to figure out exactly how to remove the old gauge from the dash and mount this one!

You should be able to lie on the floor, stick your head up under the dash and take photos of the underside and back of the instruments, to see what is going on back there as regards fixings.

Sometimes gauges are held in place by brackets like this, held on by knurled nuts. You undo them, draw them off and then push the gauge out of the dashboard from behind. It may require a bit of a twist and wiggle to get it going. Once it is free and you have drawn it forwards, you can disconnect it from the wiring harness.
new_196.jpg   Triumph Spitfire Instruments and Gauges

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17 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

You should be able to lie on the floor, stick your head up under the dash and take photos of the underside and back of the instruments, to see what is going on back there as regards fixings.

Sometimes gauges are held in place by brackets like this, held on by knurled nuts. You undo them, draw them off and then push the gauge out of the dashboard from behind. It may require a bit of a twist and wiggle to get it going. Once it is free and you have drawn it forwards, you can disconnect it from the wiring harness.
new_196.jpg   

ah thats good to know! I had a feeling the stud on the back had something to do with mounting it :) I just hope it matches up with the existing mounting hardware for the smiths gauge! 

17 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

Triumph Spitfire Instruments and Gauges

and ooh thats interesting! good to know what the voltage stabiliser looks like! going by its size it must be up in the dash somewhere as I have not been able to spot any extra electrical components otherwise throughout the car

just doing a bit of quick googling, they are quite simple devices, http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Voltage-Regulator.htm (I remember finding out a while back why old British cars had them/why they where needed, but I never actually looked into what they looked like/where comprised of until now!)

should be easy to bypass if needed :) 

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I checked the butterfly at the carburettor, with the cable disconnected, and it easily opened and closed (with the spring fixed to the air filter, as @Zelandeth pictured) when I moved it with my finger. For the throttle cable, it seems to be free but tight along its length because I disconnected the twist grip and pulled the inner cable and @LightBulbFun saw that the throttle butterfly open and close. The twist grip is free to rotate when off the handle bar. But I did notice it was fixed too far up the handlebar, by the bend which it rubbed against, so I moved it more towards the end, and it is now free to rotate. With it fixed to the handle bar, and the cable hanging loose, the throttle appears to work, but it is stiff, and the return is sluggish. If it is held up, like Zel’s pic, it does not return properly and the throttle remains open. As @Mrs6C says, fix it at close intervals, but I would like to see the path it should take from one end to the other, perhaps pictures of the route on TPA from Zel and TWC from @dollywobbler would help. I think once we find a path without any tight bends that might be the answer.

For the fuel gauge, I have found several Veglia Borlettis and connection diagrams, but none exactly like this. At the sender, one is for a switch to earth for the low fuel light, so the light connected to the + terminal goes there. The other two are the level resistor, but not sure of which is what colour, or how the connections go. Further investigation to come.

Not sure if REV has a voltage stabiliser like that, it would be mounted on the back of the speedo, but I cant see one in Claire s pic.

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1 hour ago, bobdisk said:

Not sure if REV has a voltage stabiliser like that, it would be mounted on the back of the speedo, but I cant see one in Claire s pic.

I think the picture @Mrs6C used i think is just a generic picture to show how dash gauges are mounted normally :) (I mean Im not aware of any Model 70's with a red dashboard!)

from what I can tell REV will have one somewhere as she is a later Model 70 and from March 1976 onwards they gained a stabiliser

image.thumb.png.f685c4e132757f6333abff13d5e90670.png

 

Model 70's from Production start, to March 1976 had gauges like so, note the chrome surround and small speedo

image.png

then in March 1976 the Model 70 got a bit of an internal face lift, among a host of other changes (like a rollover bar and a headlining) they changed to different gauges with black surrounds and a much larger speedo, so the fuel gauge was also changed (still a smiths just a different type) and this is when the fuel stabiliser was also made a part of things

IMG_0500.thumb.JPG.081f5faf9caca03b465fe2fc6ac7299d.JPG

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2 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

i think is just a generic picture to show how dash gauges are mounted normally

That's correct. The photo was of a Triumph Spitfire speedometer and the drawing was a set of Spitfire gauges from the Rimmer Bros online catalogue. They were to illustrate how round gauges like these were often fitted.

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@Mrs6C,  Ahhh!! I see !! 

If you look at REVs picture, you can see the green throttle cable hanging low, that is the position it almost wants to work. Fix it higher, and the problems come.

@LightBulbFunForgot to mention REVs charge light problem:  There is a large relay somewhere to operate the starter side of the Dynastart. You can hear it click when you operate the starter with the key. It could be the contacts in that. I did notice a voltage regulator in REV positioned on the chassis near the rear offside light.  That is the most likely place for the fault.  There will be a type number on the top. It looks like the Bosch one on the Daf. The Daf has a conventional starter and dynamo, so they are probably different types, but in the same box.  Those are places to look for REVs charging problems. I will have to look at the circuit to see how it works, probably similar to the NSU, which also had a Dynastart. 

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Just went and grabbed a couple of updated photos to confirm the interior routing of the cable on TPA

IMG_20211123_115412.thumb.jpg.075a10f772fb38802e569d6c5542ba9c.jpg

The cable used to run through the circular cutout in the brake actuator yoke, but that caused the cable to be pulled too taught at times, particularly when reversing into parking spaces. 

IMG_20211123_115429.thumb.jpg.9b982d2784d84eac5ab95764f5342c77.jpg

Did try snapping a couple of photos under the car but you could see everything in them *except* the throttle cable, I'll need to try another time from the other side I guess.

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@Zelandeththanks for pics! @LightBulbFun, REVs indicator switch is on the right, so to get the cables straight path as TPA, it will have to be moved over to the left side.  If you remember, the lever got in the way of the cable.  I think REVs cable goes through a hole in the vertical panel(does it?) so it should be moved to where TPA has it. Both of those changes should make a favourable difference by making a looser bend. Next is to look at the path underneath the car.

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Guessing the twist grip is a contemporary motorcycle part which would normally be used with a much shorter, less convoluted cable. Would running the cable inside the car simplify fitting, particularly with LBFs restricted working facilities?Another thought, would one of those dash top  solar panels help keep the battery topped up? It seems the electrics are marginal, with little scope for upgrading, so every amp would help. Notice a fellow down the road is using one on his GT86, the modern one, which he parks on the road. Just coming up with a few suggestions, as like everyone else, I want to see a chipshop photo of REV!

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