invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, Mally said:

I'd take the feed pipe off the pump, see if fuel runs out and stick it back on quick.

I'd then take the other pipe off, spin the engine see if it pumps fuel out.

If you take the centre screw out of the cap, there's likely to be a rubber gasket and a filter, which may need cleaning. Fuel may well run out whilst you do this though. 

Silly question, but there is fuel in the tank and the breather holes not blocked?

I won't tell you what mistake I made  today, I'll save it for my own topic.

I think we tried and checked all that and a bit more! (poor @Mrs6C ended up drinking a fair amount more petrol then she bargained for!)

but alas the Fuel pump stout fast refused to play ball (I think the only thing we did not manage was to get to the filter in the pump itself but it was not blocked, just not pumping for whatever reason)

but I appreciate the run down/check list nonetheless  

46 minutes ago, Dobloseven said:

Looking at the photos of the pump, it seems to be a  Solex with 6 screws rather than the 5 of the Weber. There seem to be overhaul kits available and cleaning the filter under the cover is a routine service job. Would think repairing or replacing the "proper" pump would be easier and neater than fitting an electric one. Give all the nuts and screws a good soak in WD40 before you start. The fasteners are unlikely to be very tight. A 1/4" drive socket set should be adequate with the small size an advantage for access. Best of luck,I'm quite fascinated by this, and hope to see it one day, perhaps at the FoD. 

its interesting that you say Solex, because she has a Webber Carburettor, the workshop manual talks about a Solex carb in places

but every single Model 70 I have ever laid eyes on has always had some sort of Weber carb, i dont think any (production anyhow) Model 70's actually shipped with a Solex carb

and I think that the workshop manual simply lists/talks about the solex carb because the general 493cc Steyr Puch engine could have that as an option (certainly the engine portion of the workshop manual looks to be a generic Steyr Puch engine workshop manual rather then anything written specific for the Model 70 )

so I would be quite surprised to learn that she has a Solex pump, but you never know! (I know the engine is original matching numbers to REV but perhaps she could of had the fuel pump swapped in the past?)

and later Model 70's had their own spec of carburettor 32ICS, the 32ICS10T was Model 70 specific from what I can tell

https://classiccarbs.co.uk/product/weber-32ics10t-carburettor-factory-jetting-for-steyr-daimler-puch-invacar-493-cc-mod-1976

https://classiccarbs.co.uk/product/weber-carburettor-32-ics-10-t-steyr-daimler-puch-invacar-500-cc-diagram

https://www.webcononline.co.uk/library/wcimg/TechSheets/32ICS10T.pdf

(earlier Model 70's had the Weber 32ICS3, sadly I have still not quite figured out what the difference is between the 32ICS3 and the 32ICS10T or why the 10T variant was created for the Model 70)

[Mr Pastry]

6 hours ago, Dobloseven said:

Looking at the photos of the pump, it seems to be a  Solex with 6 screws rather than the 5 of the Weber. There seem to be overhaul kits available and cleaning the filter under the cover is a routine service job. Would think repairing or replacing the "proper" pump would be easier and neater than fitting an electric one. Give all the nuts and screws a good soak in WD40 before you start. The fasteners are unlikely to be very tight. A 1/4" drive socket set should be adequate with the small size an advantage for access. Best of luck,I'm quite fascinated by this, and hope to see it one day, perhaps at the FoD. 

I think this makes sense.  My initial thought was an electric pump, SU ex Minor if possible, but considering the operations involved in fitting one properly vs. overhauling the existing,  I think it is easier to keep it all standard if there is an overhaul kit.   Conversions are always more complicated than they look.  There is always one bit  which won't fit or doesn't work, and ends up getting bodged.   Overhauling the pump is not difficult.  It must be a stock pump anyway, new ones may even be available.

[bobdisk]

I would prefer fitting an electric pump. If the car is not used for a while, (probably that does not apply to you @LightBulbFun) turn the ignition on, wait 20secs or so for the carb to fill before starting. Saves turning the engine over to fill an empty carb. I think one of these could be added to the list of possibilities. A safety cutoff should be fitted as well

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Universal-Electric-Performance-Pressure-HEP-02A/dp/B07CYYL5KY

[Mrs6C]

In the longer term, it would be worth removing the pump and dismantling /cleaning/overhauling it with a repair kit, on the bench. We didn't have the parts to hand yesterday to make this practical. The metal and rubber fuel pipes around the engine will need changing with it also.

Given the car lives roadside and has to be fettled there, a pragmatic solution would appear to be bypass all that by fitting an electric pump, which then gets REV and LBF mobile.

The mechanical pump can be addressed at a later date, when the car is able to be off-road and within reach of a workbench. It would be good to be able to return it to working order.

[Dobloseven]

I deduced it was a Solex pump from someone on a Haflinger forum with the same pump who thought it was a Weber.A pump is a pump and no reason for it to be the same make as the carburettor. He was soon put right, along with a debate over the virtues of con verting to electric. Mixed opinions, as on here. Overhauling a mechanical pump is a kitchen table job really, if the parts are available. Might be worth taking the cover off and checking the filter inside before you go any further. It's a service item anyway, and doesn't look like it's been touched for a while. 

[Zelandeth]

My main reason for sticking with electric (and keeping it remote from the engine compartment) was down to wanting to keep issues with vapour lock at bay as I know that tends to be far more of an issue with modern fuels.  In my case too there's always going to be quite a lot of full speed/stop/full speed/stop/repeat driving going on just because of the road layout in my area and it's a problem I've had issues with for that reason on other cars in the past since moving here.  Trundling around London at 20mph, far less likely to be an issue.

I also have to admit that I really don't like the location of the fuel pump as it's *directly* above the offside exhaust downpipe, ensuring that any leakage (which I had twice) drips straight onto the exhaust.  Using the electric pump has allowed me to route the fuel lines in such a way that they're kept fully clear of any hot areas of the engine like that.  That's a bit different on REV as being a later car she's got a metal fuel line that runs to the engine bay a completely different way.

Keeping cranking time down on a car which hasn't got the world's most beefy charging system made a lot of sense to my mind too, especially if it's not going to be used all that regularly.  Would simplify the end of year purge too as you could just disconnect the power feed to the pump and run the engine till the float bowl was empty.

...Which had been my expectation when I was putting TPA back together...I really hadn't expected to use the car anywhere near to as often as I actually have, pretty much year round.

[LightBulbFun]

I ordered this fuel pump earlier today  https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08LDHNZD8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

(he says noticing just now that while it says 2.5-4PSI in the title/description it says 3-6PSI in the last picture!) hopefully it works and wont flood the carb!

amazon is saying it should get here tomorrow, so if it arrives while theres still light out I may have a go at fitting it and seeing if REV will finally run on her own fuel!  

 

I also ordered some EP90 gear oil as I actually have no idea what the oil situation is like with regards to the gearbox and diff and I really dont like the fact that I dont know whats going on there, so before I hit the road proper, id like to check it, and also eventually change it, I am not looking forward to try and do battle with the Diffs level and drain plugs mind!

(gearbox is easy enough tho, just take the top off and suck all the old oil out and stick fresh stuff in, and bolt the cover back on, not even a gasket to worry about)

I did notice her gearbox/diff has a covering of oil on its surface, which further makes me want to check things, I really hope I have not done 25 miles around the FoD with a gearbox/diff thats devoid of oil!

I have not noticed anything on the ground etc so hopefully its all just historic marks or accumulation over the past 45 years rather then an active leak somewhere

I did have to laugh at the ebay sponsored items when buying the oil, Anti-Freeze is the one thing I WONT need for REV LOL

[Mrs6C]

26 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

I may have a go at fitting it

Thinking about this, it might be better to fit the electric pump at the front, just up from the fuel tank, rather than have it in the engine bay.  Whichever end you decide it should go, though, put the in-line fuel filter between the tank and the pump, to keep the pump free of any grot that may end up in the tank. You can use the filter currently installed in the engine bay for this, if you don't have another one...

[EightMegs]

It was nice seeing you, REV, and Morris earlier! Thanks for the tea and the tour. Hopefully you'll have REV outside the chipper with your new fuel pump tomorrow.

[LightBulbFun]

31 minutes ago, EightMegs said:

It was nice seeing you, REV, and Morris earlier! Thanks for the tea and the tour. Hopefully you'll have REV outside the chipper with your new fuel pump tomorrow.

Likewise! Thanks for dropping by while you where being dragged into London for other things, it was nice to have a chat about things! and im glad you got to see REV!  (although I wish I could have demonstrated her running and driving!)

1 hour ago, Mrs6C said:

Thinking about this, it might be better to fit the electric pump at the front, just up from the fuel tank, rather than have it in the engine bay.  Whichever end you decide it should go, though, put the in-line fuel filter between the tank and the pump, to keep the pump free of any grot that may end up in the tank. You can use the filter currently installed in the engine bay for this, if you don't have another one...

indeed thats what I plan to do, just hope I can scrounge up enough fuel pipe and fuel pipe hose clips from whats already on REV   (as I dont have any extras on hand, not hard to get online obviously but right now on hand I dont have anything extra)

I also hope the hose barb on the new fuel pump will fit REV's existing fuel hosing!

[somewhatfoolish]

2 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

(gearbox is easy enough tho, just take the top off and suck all the old oil out and stick fresh stuff in, and bolt the cover back on, not even a gasket to worry about)

You will need a gasket if you don't want the outside to be lubricated as well, even if it's only a cereal packet special.

[bobdisk]

6 hours ago, Mrs6C said:

Thinking about this, it might be better to fit the electric pump at the front, just up from the fuel tank, rather than have it in the engine bay.  Whichever end you decide it should go, though, put the in-line fuel filter between the tank and the pump, to keep the pump free of any grot that may end up in the tank. You can use the filter currently installed in the engine bay for this, if you don't have another one...

Position depends on the pump. I remember from my Morris 1000 days you had to have the right type of SU pump. There are pushers, that go near the tank, and pullers, that go near the engine. I once put a Mini pump on a Morris 1000, and had no end of problems, until I was told that. The pump in the NSU was outside under the back seat, so far enough not to be a problem if there was any leakage .

[LightBulbFun]

cheap n cheerful fuel pump arrived  but I have a slight problem in that neither of the 2 supplied barb fittings or the little brass fuel filter thingy screw in all the way home

but I dont know if they are supposed to sit proud like this, or theres something wrong with the threads cut into the pump body etc

(also still trying to figure out if said brass fuel filter thingy is directional or not and if it is which side it goes on)

[Mrs6C]

Have you measured the depth of the receiver holes with a wire and a ruler and measure the length of the barb threads, to see how they relate?

I'd expect the fuel filter to be on the tank side of the pump. The pump has a direction flow arrow on the side you have photographed, so it looks to be in the correct loaction.

Try squirting a little WD40 around the joints, then put your finger over the end of the black barb fitting and blow into the brass fitting. Does any air leak out and cause the WD40 to bubble around the joints?

Did it come with any instructions?

[Noel Tidybeard]

i would imagine they are tapered threads as they are dealing with liquid- they get tight without screwing "home" as you put it

[LightBulbFun]

21 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

Have you measured the depth of the receiver holes with a wire and a ruler and measure the length of the barb threads, to see how they relate?

I'd expect the fuel filter to be on the tank side of the pump. The pump has a direction flow arrow on the side you have photographed, so it looks to be in the correct loaction.

Try squirting a little WD40 around the joints, then put your finger over the end of the black barb fitting and blow into the brass fitting. Does any air leak out and cause the WD40 to bubble around the joints?

Did it come with any instructions?

I gave the WD40 thing a go, if done up suitably tight it does not blow bubbles so thats good I think!  

do have to wonder if its meant to be used with something like PTFE tape or something such (which I dont have on hand sadly)

sadly no instructions and I cant really find any assembled pictures online, but this video seems to also show the same pump with the fittings/threads sitting proud so I im inclined to think it was designed this way? but again I have 0 experience with this sort of thing!

although I have noticed I dont think the fuel filter will be much good! ya get what you pay for I guess!

[Mrs6C]

5 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

although I have noticed I dont think the fuel filter will be much good! ya get what you pay for I guess!

Put the paper filter one between this one and the tank.

[LightBulbFun]

was not able to install the fuel pump sadly as the fuel hose ID is 5Mm but the barbs are for 8Mm ID pipe so theres no way they where going to fit sadly, ill have to figure something out there (I dont have any 8Mm fuel pipe or any reducers etc to hand sadly)

but I was able to replace REV's battery earth/ground strap  it is a bit disconcerting that it took me about 1 and a half to 2 hours to do a job which would probably take anyone else about 15 minutes! (mind as @Zelandeth has mentioned in his posts the lack of captive nuts is a right bastard to deal with, tho even if there where captive nuts, knowing my luck they would all snap their welds anyway!)

its safe to say her old one was indeed a bit past it! with many broken strands on the left side terminal

and finally have a bonus picture of Morris as he was when I came through the door LOL

[Mrs6C]

6 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

I was able to replace REV's battery ground/earth strap

Hey, well done you!!!

[somewhatfoolish]

Assuming the pump is BSP try one of these smaller hose barbs.

[Dobloseven]

Is that thing in your hand actually a filter? Or could it be a one way valve? I've seen carpet shampooers with a similar looking set up for pumping the fluid. 

[bobdisk]

@LightBulbFun The NSU's pump had 2 of the black adaptors, and did not have a larger "filter" thingy.  As  @Noel Tidybeard says, they are a tapered thread, so that they will seal a liquid without screwing it forcefully in. An extra seal would be to wrap some PTFE tape around the threads. Look at the complete pumps connections in the pic with the  Ford engine. 

[bobdisk]

6 minutes ago, Dobloseven said:

Is that thing in your hand actually a filter? Or could it be a one way valve? I've seen carpet shampooers with a similar looking set up for pumping the fluid. 

@Dobloseven and @LightBulbFun Blow through it. If it is a one way valve, you will only blow in one direction. 

[LightBulbFun]

2 hours ago, Mrs6C said:

Hey, well done you!!!

thanks!  although im not pleased it took so long and that it was so knackering for me for what is such a simple Job, I do admit at the end I was quite pleased with the end result and that I was actually able to pull it off in the end!  

was nice looking down at the shiny new part I had just installed  

26 minutes ago, bobdisk said:

@LightBulbFun The NSU's pump had 2 of the black adaptors, and did not have a larger "filter" thingy.  As  @Noel Tidybeard says, they are a tapered thread, so that they will seal a liquid without screwing it forcefully in. An extra seal would be to wrap some PTFE tape around the threads. Look at the complete pumps connections in the pic with the  Ford engine. 

ah cool thats good to know

23 minutes ago, bobdisk said:

@Dobloseven and @LightBulbFun Blow through it. If it is a one way valve, you will only blow in one direction. 

in the case of mine I can blow through it in both directions easily so Im guessing it is some sort of filter in this case  

[Zelandeth]

14 hours ago, somewhatfoolish said:

You will need a gasket if you don't want the outside to be lubricated as well, even if it's only a cereal packet special.

There was no evidence of a physical gasket when I took the cover off TPA, but it had clearly been leaking like a sieve for years from the 1" plus in places crust of mud and congealed EP90. 

I've just used a smear of Hylomar when putting the cover back on and the oil seems to have stayed mostly inside the box.  Aside from the weeping offside driveshaft seal anyway...

[reb]

I wouldn't worry about a simple job taking a long time, I'm the same at the moment. It's just a case of practice, as you do more on the car you'll get more efficient. Before the world turned upside down last year I fitted entirely new suspension to my Volvo in a couple of hours, more recently it took me longer than that to do some minor bits and pieces on the 205. The most important thing really is to take your time to make sure you don't miss a step, as nothing will cause more delay than that! Well, except finding out you have the wrong part once you have everything stripped down!

[Eyersey1234]

I hope REV is enjoying her new life in London. Did you get to the chip shop in the end @LightBulbFun? 

[High Jetter]

If they were straight threads that screwed all the way in, you'd still need some sort of sealing washer. I'd agree that they're likely to be tapered threads, which should deffo not go all the way in.

[Andyrew]

If you can, wire the pump up with a hidden kill switch and relay, mount the switch out of the way somewhere only you know as a bit of added security. 

[High Jetter]

Or take the rotor arm to bed with you. Ah, just me, then.