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LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, Chips got! :)


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On 17/09/2022 at 21:53, AdgeCutler said:

I suppose then it’s time to announce that Brian now has a stablemate. I had been waiting to get a chance to make progress with one or other car to post something of a progress report but time has been short. When Harry realised he had to thin out his fleet due to the prospect of becoming a homeowner he kindly thought of me, sadly I did not have the funds to buy VJN, however, I asked my cousin ( who had been following Brian with interest and assisting when possible) if he would like to adopt an InvaCar. He did. Actually today we did manage to get VJN (now Bryony) out for a little attention and can report that she now stops as well as goes! She has had a new stub axle fitted as well as both rear wheel cylinders. Rear wheel bearings were given a clean out and fresh grease as it appeared water had managed to get past the seals at some point. Other small jobs have been addressed and myself and Russell (Rust ole, my cousin) hope to find more time before long to continue helping both Brian and Bryony back toward the roads on which they belong.
Best wishes with the house Harry.

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very awesome to see you have managed to get a Model 70 at long last! I know you have been wanting one for a long time! :) 

she looks good next to Brian and I am very pleased she is staying in the fold! and could not have gone to a better home! :) 

and I very much look forward to seeing them both out n about :) 

 

6 hours ago, Mrs6C said:

I can't remember either, but Six-cylinder did manage to get a pack of them, as Dolly has a snapped stud also. IIRC they are Land Rover exhaust manifold studs. I'll ask him...

are you sure about this? I seem to remember there being a bag of studs purchased at the time as you say for Dolly, but dont recall them being the right type

obviously very happy to be proven wrong here, but Model 70 wheel studs are 3/8th inch BSF on the hub side and standard 3/8th inch UNF 24 TPI (like what you find on a classic mini) wheel side

and I have never found anything that was 3/8th inch BSF one one side and 3/8th inch UNF on the other side

AFAIK the these wheel studs are bespoke to invalid vehicles (I BELIVE they are also used on Pre Model 70 AC's and maybe Invacars too)

 

11 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

Edit: Wait...that hub is totally different to mine...

Mine has the original (4x100mm I think) Fiat wheel bolt pattern, with the studs having been added afterwards...also doesn't have the two cutouts in.  Odd!

IMG_20200507_175419.thumb.jpg.d100043ba1cb5719344a285cff5c02ca.jpg

Those cutouts will make working on the brakes immeasurably less awkward...

I was wondering if you would notice those or not :) I did a brief write up on them a while back on page 254 which I have quoted bellow :) 

but the TL;DR is the hubs @AdgeCutler has are later post production Ministry parts,

it seems at some point the Ministry just went right to whoever made hubs for Fiat 500's and went "some of those but in 4 inch PCD please" and thus the strange half moon non-redrilled hub was born

its worth noting that later Fiat 500 hubs and indeed a few of the ones you can buy today are the half moon type as well, 

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however since those that AdgeCutler etc have where made from the factory directly to Ministry spec they dont have the unused 4x98 Fiat holes or the brake drum retaining screw holes,

they are very much still Fiat 500 hubs, but made directly made in 4 inch PCD rather then 4x98mm PCD :) and as you say in period they just re-drilled standard fiat 500 hubs (which at the time where fully round with no cut outs)

On 14/03/2022 at 13:34, LightBulbFun said:

had a very interesting one just now!

have been chatting to Fraser (he needed to know what the front wheel cylinder was I wonder how future employers would act if I put "am skilled in all hours Invacar technical support" in my CV )

as he is continuing to do some more work on VES108S (XEV88S)  :) 

and he posted me some pictures of the progress he has been making

and this caught my eye right away 

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so what its just a wheel hub whats special about that might you ask?

well anyone who knows their Model 70's knows that a Model 70 wheel hub normally looks like this (photo pinched from @Zelandeth)

IMG_20210208_163046.jpg

the Model 70 uses normally Fiat 500 (Fiat 500D specifically I THINK) hubs, re-drilled for 4 inch PCD 

now I have seen these Fiat hubs with the half moon cut outs before, on Fiats etc! I never however expected to find one on a Model 70 as the cut-outs leave no space to re-drill for 4x4 inch PCD from what i can tell

while I have seen one before on a Model 70 once, I was not sure if that was something knocked up by the owner of the vehicle or not

so its very interesting to see them again on a Model 70! especially such that they have clearly come from the Factory pre drilled for 4x4 inch PCD rather than the usual Fiat 4x98 PCD 

rather than the usual Model 70 setup which uses a standard Fiat hub that is then re-drilled for 4x4 inch PCD leaving the 4x98 holes visible still 

 

so this is very interesting! I wonder if this was a late production change (XEV88S is a very late Model 70 only 35~ cars away from the end of production Invacar Model 70 production)

or maybe a later 1980's replacement part? perhaps the Ministry found they where able to get whoever made the Fiat hubs to get them made for 4x4 inch PCD right from the start?

I will admit I dont actually know what hubs REV has, I have never had the brake drums off!

but Im pretty sure @Mrs6C's Model 70' which is the same Age as REV has typical fully circular re-drilled hubs, I sadly dont have a photograph of them, but I know the drums have been off at the FoD and Im pretty sure I would of noticed if Dolly was equipped with half moon hubs (as I call them)

so id be inclined to say that REV has regular fully circular hubs, but it would be interesting to check one of these days!

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

are you sure about this? I seem to remember there being a bag of studs purchased at the time as you say for Dolly, but dont recall them being the right type

obviously very happy to be proven wrong here, but Model 70 wheel studs are 3/8th inch BSF on the hub side and standard 3/8th inch UNF 24 TPI (like what you find on a classic mini) wheel side

and I have never found anything that was 3/8th inch BSF one one side and 3/8th inch UNF on the other side

AFAIK the these wheel studs are bespoke to invalid vehicles (I BELIVE they are also used on Pre Model 70 AC's and maybe Invacars too)

This.  BSF/UNF is an unlikely "stock" combination, as it is mixing standards from 2 different eras - I would be surprised if even Land Rover did that, but it's possible.  Also it is not a conventional stud, as it has the central shoulder to locate the brake drum.   It is almost certainly an AC /Invacar special.

Now, grumpy time.  There is no problem in making a few of these.  I have a lathe and the tooling, and I discussed it with someone here when the matter first arose.   Don't recall who it was now, and it doesn't matter, but I know what it is like being stuck for silly parts and I was only trying to be helpful.   I made a couple of trial pieces, but obviously I needed accurate dimensions, or a genuine stud to copy, before going ahead.   I never heard any more from the guy.

If he wasn't interested, fine, but a polite "thanks but no thanks" would have been appreciated.   I won't be making any more.   

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2 hours ago, Mr Pastry said:

This.  BSF/UNF is an unlikely "stock" combination, as it is mixing standards from 2 different eras - I would be surprised if even Land Rover did that, but it's possible.  Also it is not a conventional stud, as it has the central shoulder to locate the brake drum.   It is almost certainly an AC /Invacar special.

Now, grumpy time.  There is no problem in making a few of these.  I have a lathe and the tooling, and I discussed it with someone here when the matter first arose.   Don't recall who it was now, and it doesn't matter, but I know what it is like being stuck for silly parts and I was only trying to be helpful.   I made a couple of trial pieces, but obviously I needed accurate dimensions, or a genuine stud to copy, before going ahead.   I never heard any more from the guy.

If he wasn't interested, fine, but a polite "thanks but no thanks" would have been appreciated.   I won't be making any more.   

The response I got from the couple of machinists I spoke to was that they couldn't replicate it because the original threads were roll formed which they didn't have the kit to do.

I'd gladly have sent an original one as a pattern for you though I don't think I have any of them left now as the three intact ones all were sent to potential machinists and never came back.

I really hope it wasn't me who left you hanging back then, given how bloody awful I can be of keeping tabs on multiple threads I wouldn't have put it past me.

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3 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

The response I got from the couple of machinists I spoke to was that they couldn't replicate it because the original threads were roll formed which they didn't have the kit to do.

I'd gladly have sent an original one as a pattern for you though I don't think I have any of them left now as the three intact ones all were sent to potential machinists and never came back.

I really hope it wasn't me who left you hanging back then, given how bloody awful I can be of keeping tabs on multiple threads I wouldn't have put it past me.

@ZelandethI honestly can't remember - as you say we all have loads of stuff to keep tabs on, and I had forgotten about it until reading the posts yesterday.   I think I binned the trial ones!

They don't need to be thread-rolled if you are only making a few and are prepared to faff around a bit.  As far as strength goes, the originals don't seem to be too clever, so I think it would be possible to improve on that or at least equal it. 

I was going to make them individually on the lathe and die-cut the threads.  Possibly try a couple of different materials and make a few spare ones for testing - as in, torque them up and see how much it takes to break them. 

Wouldn't necessarily need a pattern but it would be up to you, or whoever, to supply the correct dimensions.  The shoulder is the critical bit.  I'd also be concerned about the fit in the hub flange without having a hub to try it in, so that would be up to the fitter to assess. 

If you've sent all the good ones away, how many do you actually need?   No problem making, say, 4 or 6, at your own risk of course.  It sounds though as if there is a general demand for more than that, and the problem is that nobody is going to want to make 50 or 100 by cottage-industry methods.

If that is of interest I'd be prepared to have a go, but perhaps you should check on these Land Rover exhaust studs and other sources first.  

 

 

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4 hours ago, Mr Pastry said:

@ZelandethI honestly can't remember - as you say we all have loads of stuff to keep tabs on, and I had forgotten about it until reading the posts yesterday.   I think I binned the trial ones!

They don't need to be thread-rolled if you are only making a few and are prepared to faff around a bit.  As far as strength goes, the originals don't seem to be too clever, so I think it would be possible to improve on that or at least equal it. 

I was going to make them individually on the lathe and die-cut the threads.  Possibly try a couple of different materials and make a few spare ones for testing - as in, torque them up and see how much it takes to break them. 

Wouldn't necessarily need a pattern but it would be up to you, or whoever, to supply the correct dimensions.  The shoulder is the critical bit.  I'd also be concerned about the fit in the hub flange without having a hub to try it in, so that would be up to the fitter to assess. 

If you've sent all the good ones away, how many do you actually need?   No problem making, say, 4 or 6, at your own risk of course.  It sounds though as if there is a general demand for more than that, and the problem is that nobody is going to want to make 50 or 100 by cottage-industry methods.

If that is of interest I'd be prepared to have a go, but perhaps you should check on these Land Rover exhaust studs and other sources first.  

 

 

The originals do appear to be made of cheese given how many we've seen either damaged or broken.

I had three "good" studs after extracting them from the hub - though they were all mangled somewhat, either before or during removal.

All three of those were sent off and never seen again, so the only ones I have now are currently holding wheels onto the car.

These were the measurements I got of the ones I had (that I can still find).

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Of course I can't find one of the shoulder - though I had a dig around earlier and found the remains of the broken stud, so I'll grab measurements from that tomorrow.

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6 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

The originals do appear to be made of cheese given how many we've seen either damaged or broken.

I had three "good" studs after extracting them from the hub - though they were all mangled somewhat, either before or during removal.

All three of those were sent off and never seen again, so the only ones I have now are currently holding wheels onto the car.

These were the measurements I got of the ones I had (that I can still find).

1172727548_IMG_20190903_1328412.thumb.jpg.290e0077abcb5fa32384b03c61007a8f.jpg

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Of course I can't find one of the shoulder - though I had a dig around earlier and found the remains of the broken stud, so I'll grab measurements from that tomorrow.

Yep that all looks good.  Just need the diameter and length of the shoulder - max. dimensions if it is mangled - failing that, the corresponding dimensions of the hole in the brake drum although I guess you don't have a spare one to measure.

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12 hours ago, Mr Pastry said:

Yep that all looks good.  Just need the diameter and length of the shoulder - max. dimensions if it is mangled - failing that, the corresponding dimensions of the hole in the brake drum although I guess you don't have a spare one to measure.

The drums aren't (in my case anyway) an especially snug fit over the shoulder.  It mainly seems to be there to just help centre things during assembly as best I can tell.  

Just measured the remains of this one.

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Which equates to exactly 1/2" if I remember right.

It was actually properly in the jaws when I took the photo by the way, I just placed things there for clarity after taking the measurements.

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Good.  I thought it was going to be 1/2" diameter, so it can be formed from 1/2" bar.

 Not sure on the length of shoulder.  Assuming it was all Imperial, 3.57" = 9/64".    Could you double check that?   Any point in making it longer- I had guessed that it was 3.9mm = 5/32."

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3.9mm leaves a fractional amount of play between the lip and the feeler gauge - though I've just taken a look at a spare drum and the depth of the shoulder could easily be a little larger.

The depth of the face of the drum is 5.4mm on the nose (0.2125" - sorry, this thing doesn't do fractions!), so your suggested value should be fine.

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While waiting for the material I thought I would experiment with what was available, and 1/2" S quality high tensile bolts are pretty much the right stuff.

Basically you cut a piece of bar, chuck it, face it, reduce one end to size and thread it BSF, then make a chucking piece with the same thread, screw the job into it, and it will run true while you repeat the process for the other end with a UNF thread.  And you work out the dimensions so that the shoulder comes out at the right length.  The chucking piece of course can be used again.  The turning tool has a small radius ground on the tip to avoid a sharp corner where the turned part meets the shoulder, as this could be a stress raiser.    The material is tough and is about at the limit of what you can comfortably thread by hand - quite hard work, and you have to think about wear and tear on the dies as well as yourself.   Altogether I think there are about 10 separate operations.  

The first one took 3 hours including the chucking piece.  I have now got it down to about an hour, and I doubt if it can be done much faster with this sort of basic equipment.   I haven't tried to break one yet.  

I hope this illustrates two things.   One is that clearly it isn't a commercial proposition on a small scale.  The other is that it is possible to make some of these unavailable parts if you go the right way about it.

 

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Certainly looks convincing!   It's a set of high tensile bolts threaded into the inner thread that I've been using here so far (aside from the one which had to be drilled out larger, which has a standard metric wheel bolt in), so material should be up to the job.  The original ones really do seem very soft.

Tap and die quality varies massively these days it seems too - that was one of the big headaches I wound up facing when I first tried to thread the hole where I'd drilled out the broken stud.  It turned out the hub was harder than my tap!  The second one got about 1/2 way through then snapped.  Third one which I went out of my way to make sure was from a reputable brand worked perfectly.  But by that point I'd already had to drill things further than I'd have liked.

I guess before you go any further it would make sense to test fit one to confirm that in the intervening couple of years that we haven't fudged up the thread sizes involved.  It would be beyond frustrating to have made a bunch of them and then discover I'd fouled up the measurements.  

I would definitely be interested in a few and obviously making a decent contribution towards your time & materials - I'd absolutely not be expecting to offer you something insulting like £10 each for these. 

How many?  Well I'm hoping that secondhand hub turns out to be available, which definitely needs two replaced.  While I have it off the car it feels kind of daft not to replace them all with ones made of actual high tensile steel rather than cheese anyway.  I know the ones on my other wheel don't look to be in 100% health either, so would probably be looking to replace those somewhere down the line.  Up front at least I do have a complete NOS hub assembly so don't need to worry about that.

So I'd really like to eventually put an order in for eight once we've confirmed the dimensions etc are all correct.

This once again shows how bloody useful a tool to have a lathe and the knowhow to make use of it is.

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4 hours ago, Mr Pastry said:

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thats some very awesome work! it certainly looks the part! :) 

Thank you very much for putting in the effort to help the cause of the Invacar! :) 

16 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

Certainly looks convincing!   It's a set of high tensile bolts threaded into the inner thread that I've been using here so far (aside from the one which had to be drilled out larger, which has a standard metric wheel bolt in), so material should be up to the job.  The original ones really do seem very soft.

Tap and die quality varies massively these days it seems too - that was one of the big headaches I wound up facing when I first tried to thread the hole where I'd drilled out the broken stud.  It turned out the hub was harder than my tap!  The second one got about 1/2 way through then snapped.  Third one which I went out of my way to make sure was from a reputable brand worked perfectly.  But by that point I'd already had to drill things further than I'd have liked.

I guess before you go any further it would make sense to test fit one to confirm that in the intervening couple of years that we haven't fudged up the thread sizes involved.  It would be beyond frustrating to have made a bunch of them and then discover I'd fouled up the measurements.  

I would definitely be interested in a few and obviously making a decent contribution towards your time & materials - I'd absolutely not be expecting to offer you something insulting like £10 each for these. 

How many?  Well I'm hoping that secondhand hub turns out to be available, which definitely needs two replaced.  While I have it off the car it feels kind of daft not to replace them all with ones made of actual high tensile steel rather than cheese anyway.  I know the ones on my other wheel don't look to be in 100% health either, so would probably be looking to replace those somewhere down the line.  Up front at least I do have a complete NOS hub assembly so don't need to worry about that.

So I'd really like to eventually put an order in for eight once we've confirmed the dimensions etc are all correct.

This once again shows how bloody useful a tool to have a lathe and the knowhow to make use of it is.

im pretty positive they are 3/8th BSF hub side as per your post from a few years ago! but as you say would not be a bad idea to test fit the one already produced before commencing with any others! (and wheel side is just standard classic Mini which is from what I have researched is 3/8th UNF)

On 30/11/2019 at 23:27, Zelandeth said:

This afternoon an envelope containing four 3/8" BSF bolts dropped through my door. 

The big question of course was whether they would fit the hub of the Invacar.

IMG_20191130_194929.thumb.jpg.aec1566f0cc3e8e94737427a86f5ffbe.jpg

Finally!  I can now confirm that the threads in the hub are 3/8" BSF.

BTW has anyone figured out how to get the remains of a broken stud removed from the hub in the first place? 

im thinking given how many of these we have seen snapped im more then happy to pay for a bunch to be made for the parts stash just in general but I am first of all wondering if the hubs with the broken studs are indeed salvageable or not?

 

 

and obviously depending on if @Mr Pastry is alright with making a few more! I can completely understand if he only wants to make the 4 or 8 for Zel and just be done with that as its clearly not an 5 minute job! 

 

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25 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

thats some very awesome work! it certainly looks the part! :) 

Thank you very much for putting in the effort to help the cause of the Invacar! :) 

im pretty positive they are 3/8th BSF hub side as per your post from a few years ago! but as you say would not be a bad idea to test fit the one already produced before commencing with any others! (and wheel side is just standard classic Mini which is from what I have researched is 3/8th UNF)

BTW has anyone figured out how to get the remains of a broken stud removed from the hub in the first place? 

im thinking given how many of these we have seen snapped im more then happy to pay for a bunch to be made for the parts stash just in general but I am first of all wondering if the hubs with the broken studs are indeed salvageable or not?

 

 

and obviously depending on if @Mr Pastry is alright with making a few more! I can completely understand if he only wants to make the 4 or 8 for Zel and just be done with that as its clearly not an 5 minute job! 

 

Getting the old ones out basically involved locking two wheel nuts together and unbolting them.  There's a little blob of weld tacked on the inside of the hub that needs to be cracked off first.  Now I know that it's something I'd do with the hub off the car (which I've always resisted doing given how much of a song and dance the manuals make about setting the wheel bearing preload), would be a simple matter of buzzing that off with the grinder.  

Three of my four came out pretty easily, however there was one which just kept snapping closer and closer to the hub eventually ending up totally flush to it.  Which is the one I drilled out - made a meal of and wound up having to drill oversize, tap, had the tap mess up the threads, drill out again and retap...

With the hub off the car it shouldn't be a difficult job.  To be fair 99.9% of the headaches I had were because I was trying to do the work in situ.  That was an absolutely bloody stupid idea, I should have just taken the damned hub off.

If there wasn't anything to grip on the front of the hub I imagine you could grind a slot in the back of the stud then whack it with an impact driver that way.

Question to those who know more about metallurgy than me: The original studs had a weld tack applied to the back of the hub to lock them in place.  Is this likely to weaken the metal of the stud?  Or would modern thread locking compounds be a more sensible route?  That's an area where things have moved on a lot since the early 70s.

 

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@Zelandeth  I was going to suggest that I sent a sample over to you for a trial fit.  The UNF thread is good in a wheel nut, but I am concerned about the fit in the hub as it is anyone's guess what they actually did, and it may not be the same as a normal BSF nut.

I need to play with the proper material when it arrives and see how it machines before going any further.   At the moment 8 feels like a good place to stop, but let's see how it goes.   Might manage more later perhaps, but if @LightBulbFunwants them for his general parts stock, and they find their way to the general public, then there is possibly a liability issue.

I think you could safely use thread locking fluid to retain the studs in the hub, but it needs a bit more research as there are several different grades.   It is weakened by heat, but probably hotter than brakes usually get.   I think it is used on some modern brake disc bolts, for example.

 

 

 

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Just a small update and thoughts. 

I have now tried making the studs in EN16T which I believe to be the "best" material.  It is as tough as old boots, and as expected, is an absolute xxxx to thread manually.   My gut feeling is that it is stronger than it needs to be for a light vehicle.  I think it is worth looking at a softer material which would be easier to work with, but strong enough, subject to testing.   It would be interesting to know what the original material was and if the AC drawings ever turn up, we might find out.

@ZelandethWould you like a sample now to trial fit, or would you prefer to wait until you have a spare hub available?

@LightBulbFunRe. making some for stock, this would tie up a lot of your money as they would not sell quickly, and as already indicated they are not going to be cheap.   A lot of enthusiasts would be sniffy about paying a fiver each, ask me how I know.

Typically, what happens is you identify a part which everybody "wants," get a batch made, announce that you have done it, and everybody goes - "Oh - those are back in stock now - jolly good - that will be handy if I ever need one -" and that is as far as you get.  Nobody puts their hand in their pocket to support you.

Your best policy with things like this is to get them made to order as required, which I might be prepared to do if we can get the design right.  And I will gladly do you a fair copy of the drawing so that you can investigate other suppliers.   They may respond differently to a drawing than a sample,  

Thank you all for your positive reactions and comments.  I think there are many other machinists on the forum who could do it better than I can.  For some strange reason they are all keeping their heads down! 

 

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1 hour ago, Mr Pastry said:

Just a small update and thoughts. 

I have now tried making the studs in EN16T which I believe to be the "best" material.  It is as tough as old boots, and as expected, is an absolute xxxx to thread manually.   My gut feeling is that it is stronger than it needs to be for a light vehicle.  I think it is worth looking at a softer material which would be easier to work with, but strong enough, subject to testing.   It would be interesting to know what the original material was and if the AC drawings ever turn up, we might find out.

@ZelandethWould you like a sample now to trial fit, or would you prefer to wait until you have a spare hub available?

@LightBulbFunRe. making some for stock, this would tie up a lot of your money as they would not sell quickly, and as already indicated they are not going to be cheap.   A lot of enthusiasts would be sniffy about paying a fiver each, ask me how I know.

Typically, what happens is you identify a part which everybody "wants," get a batch made, announce that you have done it, and everybody goes - "Oh - those are back in stock now - jolly good - that will be handy if I ever need one -" and that is as far as you get.  Nobody puts their hand in their pocket to support you.

Your best policy with things like this is to get them made to order as required, which I might be prepared to do if we can get the design right.  And I will gladly do you a fair copy of the drawing so that you can investigate other suppliers.   They may respond differently to a drawing than a sample,  

Thank you all for your positive reactions and comments.  I think there are many other machinists on the forum who could do it better than I can.  For some strange reason they are all keeping their heads down! 

 

Oh when I mean for the spares stash, I mean that when I got my Car it came with a large parts stash that I use to keep the mine, and  the forum cars going (or attempt to!) and I was just thinking of getting a few made to chuck in there

should any (more) studs snap on our collective Model 70's thats all :) im not thinking about the public here, im just thinking towards the future on here, so, if say your making 8 for Zel I am happy to pay for another 8 on top of that 

but obviously if its too much faff or such then thats perfectly understandable! I can understand how you might run out of enthusiasm for doing more after doing just a few given how effort is involved!

and I think the spare hub @AdgeCutler has offered up has a couple good studs at least so they can be pinched from that if needed! and as you say we have the drawing you made now which can be handed to to other fabrication firms/people in the future if needed :)

anyways before I get too far ahead of myself, lets see how the test samples fit for Zel :) 

 

 

full Model 70 technical drawings/blueprints do thankfully survive and I know exactly who has them but knowing who has them very frustratingly means I dont think we will see anything any time soon because of who has them!, I am just hoping at some point I can visit in person borrow them and take them to Zel to be digitised!

the wheel studs are TSD 5446 drawn/made by by AC Cars Ltd on the 30th of the 12th 1975 (date  is quite interesting in itself because it tells me they revised the wheel studs at that point during the Model 70 production run and retroactively applied to to all cars, I wonder what changed!)

 

as a side note one interesting thing I have noticed is, all 12 wheel studs on a Model 70 are the same, but it seems to be always the rear ones that are snapped, I dont think I have seen a front one snapped one, so I wonder why that is?

it it simply easier to over-tighten the rear wheels since theres no front bodywork in the way or is it something else?

 

1 hour ago, Talbot said:

You are This Old Tony AICMFP

I was thinking "you are @AdgeCutler AICMFP" given the level of Invacar parts fabrication that just happened :mrgreen:

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I think @AdgeCutlerknows exactly how to do this.

It would be very interesting to see the AC drawing - why are you Invacar peeps so secretive about anything?   Shouldn't you be helping each other?   

As you say I think the bodywork inhibits over-tightening of the front wheel, and maybe the rear end needs more attention.

Anyway, a test result - not very scientific but useful.

Not having an Invacar around the place (thankfully) I held a standard BSF nut horizontally in the vice, screwed an S quality stud in, added a UNF wheel nut to the top end and applied torque wrench gradually.  

Everything felt fine at about 30 ft/lbs, and the nuts bottomed onto the shoulders.  Beyond 40 ft/lbs the stud gradually pulled out of the BSF nut, destroying the threads on the nut in the process.  There was no apparent damage to either end of the stud, or the wheel nut.  The thread in the hub flange is probably stronger than a standard nut as the material will be different.

Anyway I am confident that my thread cutting and dimensions are okay, and that the stud isn't going to break, but it needs trying in an actual hub, and as said I think a softer stud material should also be tried. 

 

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Looks like the Hammond Collection Catalog is up! @egg @barrett @Zelandeth

https://www.easyliveauction.com/catalogue/e52841f4a9b47c27c356c4c77c9ebfef/0af8d24542e81eb9357e7ef448a6646f/the-hammond-microcar-museum-kent-auction-online-only--vi/?iFrameView=1&currentPage=1&maxResults=120

looks like they have separated and itemised everything pretty well, so the Steyr puch engine is available on its own, along with a Model 70 Gearbox and a Dynastart unit or 3, but of course they still missed the Model 70 exhaust hanging from the roof! LOL

someone who I consider to be a good home for these things has expressed interest in the AC Acedes so I am quite pleased about that :) 

 

 

also for @barrett any clue as to what the hell this might be? :) (the eBay listing makes claims, but its clear from their facebook post that they have no clue themselves!)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255729885747

https://www.facebook.com/dentdevilseastsussex/posts/pfbid02Ts7u91hiQXXnW8uGBAgc1yH43sVLYKLLGoCN1GqGE4qzH5nvJkAKkrtC14Xf9Upkl

s-l1600-23.thumb.jpg.73da51cd9c2a58d4a08a1b6610d42568.jpg

s-l1600-22.thumb.jpg.fafb69df738dc5aa5ca0ffa482399a5c.jpg

999BPF puts it at around August 1956 if that registration mark has any actual bearing to the machine!

 

 

also speaking of mystery invalid three wheelers! one for @MorrisItalSLX any idea as to what these might be? :) 

https://www.superstock.com/asset/chair-cripple-crippled-pensioner-buy-motorised-wheelchair-given-sunday-sun/5513-17626911

5513-17626911.thumb.jpg.1780d5c3b0428f64a963121a21ad9956.jpg

its a really strange contraption, its giving me French/European vibes but thats just vibes, I have never seen a Motorised machine with a hand propulsion crank like that, its like its one half of the mechanism from a Harding Rideinease! 

 

theres also a couple here as well https://www.superstock.com/asset/wheelchairs-hospitals-february/5513-17626908

5513-17626908.thumb.jpg.963c62faa13a4765a579d80f2e79b2d3.jpg

its also quite interesting in general to see Invalid carriages like this in Australia, I know New Zealand had a few, but I had never seen much like this in Oz so its very cool to see that they did indeed exist over there and that they where even road registered!

 

also bonus really old school Invalid vehicles and buses shot :) 

https://www.superstock.com/asset/miles-invalid-chair-years-old-william-curran-ipswhich-who-despite/5513-16347931

5513-16347931.thumb.jpg.79af34df4fc960591a4e366346e0d096.jpg

 

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