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LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, Chips got! :)


LightBulbFun

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19 minutes ago, wuvvum said:

I don't often contribute to this thread, but a colleague this morning found a GIF in the MS Teams library which appears to be a shortened Morris Minor panda car playing skittles with a colourful selection of Mk12s.

giphy.gif?cid=de9bf95eej7aw151tuz65ocoidlqk1r1f92qary28pqfwtf5&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

Is that from Monty Python? Looks very much like Terry Gilliam’s work

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19 minutes ago, wuvvum said:

I don't often contribute to this thread, but a colleague this morning found a GIF in the MS Teams library which appears to be a shortened Morris Minor panda car playing skittles with a colourful selection of Mk12s.

giphy.gif?cid=de9bf95eej7aw151tuz65ocoidlqk1r1f92qary28pqfwtf5&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

hah thats amusing! I had seen it in picture form but not in GIF form :) 

its from Monty Python's Flying Circus :) 

https://www.imcdb.org/vehicle_84183-Invacar-Mk12.html

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19 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

Hello again!

its very awesome to hear from you once more! I have been wondering how things have been going :)

im sorry to hear health has been playing up I hope things have since improved!

some interesting hand propelled carriages you have there! its nice to see some hand propelled carriages in good shape  a lot of the hand propelled carriages you see tend to be in pretty sad shape from being neglected for 50-100 years!

have to admit I would obviously prefer to see VJN953S remain in the UK as I dont like seeing Invacars exported out of the country, but obviously if it means a lot to you then I want you to keep it of course :) it would not be alone at least! there is a Tippen Delta 8 in a private collection somewhere in France :) 

2000004627689.thumb.jpeg.07494b5a81a8b6f63dddb82dd0b15484.jpeg

 if your otherwise worried about finding it a good home, im more then happy to help with finding a good and suitable home for it :) (or you could keep it in the UK as your visiting car, its £NIL rate tax and probably very cheap to insure for you, cheaper then a hire car when visiting!)

 

thats pretty cool! I think the Stanley Argson was the only invalid carriage made in all 3 forms of propulsion, Hand propelled, petrol and of course Electric for which there most well known

it would be cool to get all 3 types lined up at some point :) 

speaking of Argsons, did you manage to assemble all the Heywood specials you managed to acquire with VJN953S? :) 

Aaawwwww thank you for your kind words,   yes, health dodgy, hence the big decision to move to France, the problem with taking the Invacar is purely cost, it's working out ridiculous,  I've got the Nelco Solocar to take, the other two electric Argsons and the Petrol one!!  Please see the pics attached, taken a couple of years ago, where they were all out and about raising money for the British Legion.......   Chat soon, all the best......

Nowt has happened with the spares yet, hopefully they will be coming with me!! 

IMG-0364.jpg

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3 hours ago, OldBlokeInACaravan said:

Aaawwwww thank you for your kind words,   yes, health dodgy, hence the big decision to move to France, the problem with taking the Invacar is purely cost, it's working out ridiculous,  I've got the Nelco Solocar to take, the other two electric Argsons and the Petrol one!!  Please see the pics attached, taken a couple of years ago, where they were all out and about raising money for the British Legion.......   Chat soon, all the best......

Nowt has happened with the spares yet, hopefully they will be coming with me!! 

IMG-0364.jpg

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im sorry to hear that costs are being a bit much! I hope your other invalid carriages make it over safe and sound :) 

3 hours ago, OldBlokeInACaravan said:

Because of my move to France, I've had to list my unstarted Stanley/Argson Electric Invalid Carriage Project on Ebay, all complete and not too bad, collect from Morecambe.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/304320465383

Oooh thats interesting JPL548! Its not a Stanley Argson thats on any of my lists, but its registration mark sounds so familiar! I wonder I have seen it somewhere before, but I would of made a note about it and I also note its live on the DVLA and so I would of pulled its details for the when I saw it and added it to my lists when I saw if I did indeed see it before, although I do note its had a V5c recently issued so perhaps it was only recently brought back to life on the DVLA?

ill have to grab its full details tomorrow once im on the main computer :) 

image.thumb.png.0176d717c87257d0c8bf5b1cb03e150f.png

is it just being used as an example machine of whats being sold? or JPL548 the actual carriage being sold?

because I note your listing says its UPE517 thats, for sale which is one of the Heywood specials :) (theres actually a period picture of UPE517 in the Heywood stores in the mid 1990's which will be going into Stuarts big book :) )

and JPL548 is an Argson where as UPE517 is an Argson Deluxe (and then further fitted with 12 inch Ministry standard wheels as some late service Argsons where)  so I am just trying to figure out whats what :) 

 

its a real shame I dont have a garage or something such, as id quite like an electric Stanley Argson :) 

and before anyone asks no I cant just sneak it into the FoD sadly as the Open invalid carriages really do need to be kept under cover to stop them deteriorating, otherwise I would be very tempted to buy UPE for myself! would be a fun way of doing the really local shopping/chippy runs where your only going 0.5 miles and it would be unhealthy to a petrol engine vehicle

 

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1 hour ago, Harriytait said:

Has this one been shared yet? :)

b03cf48742b9866fd727e3b6436c4e61.jpeg

indeed it has by @Mrs6C all the way back on Page 82! :)

 

On 21/10/2019 at 20:06, Mrs6C said:

Have you got RAR88R on your list?

http://www.thecelticwiki.com/page/Supporters+-+Disabled+Supporters

A quick internet search of "invalid carriages at football matches" turns up a whole selection of interesting old photos!

I appreciate the heads up tho still :) 

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15 minutes ago, mitsisigma01 said:

Can anyone make this into a GIF , from Whoops Apocalypse apparently. 

1697093746_i001070586(1).jpg.541a20701c04dc3ceb87be94d709257a.jpg 

 

LOL I already did many pages ago :) (which made it all the more amusing when someone tried to use it against me/my thread/Invacars at one point as the only place they would of found it is if they where closely following my thread!)

question is can you find it :) 

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Hey @LightBulbFun. I was watching an old episode of One Foot in the Grave (I don't believe it!)  and look what popped up:

IMG_20220122_213603888.thumb.jpg.0a772fdaf9960b9bbf2ef6814bdb4bda.jpg

I did a search of the forum and I saw that you had mentioned the GPB number plate range but not this exact car. A DVLA check lists it as an AC Electric so it wasn't wearing show plates. 

Apologies if you have seen it before 🙂

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2 hours ago, Dick Longbridge said:

If things don't work out with the Invacar, you should go for the posh Fairthorpe Electrina. It looks like the obvious upgrade! 

https://www.carandclassic.com/car/C1371075

Edit: I see you've already been tagged in Chris' tweet... 😉

Screenshot_20220122-193316_Chrome.jpg

haha yeah! I was going to respond earlier before the edit and say funnily enough your not the first person to tag me in that! :) 

(funnily enough Big Al, (of Garden of Mk12's fame) has a Fairthorpe himself, 9000NX)

14 minutes ago, Blake's Den said:

Hey @LightBulbFun. I was watching an old episode of One Foot in the Grave (I don't believe it!)  and look what popped up:

IMG_20220122_213603888.thumb.jpg.0a772fdaf9960b9bbf2ef6814bdb4bda.jpg

I did a search of the forum and I saw that you had mentioned the GPB number plate range but not this exact car. A DVLA check lists it as an AC Electric so it wasn't wearing show plates. 

Apologies if you have seen it before 🙂

I have already seen it, but as always thanks for the heads up :) and it does feature somewhere in this thread where it was posted by another member who was also kindly giving me the heads up :) 

(its also on the IMCDB so I have known about it for a long time now :) ) but otherwise I have just not had much need to speak about GPB629N specifically, tho I do wonder where they where borrowed it from, I know it was already de-licensed for about a year when that episode was shot, so im guessing it was borrowed from a local repairers "going to be scrapped" pile

as a side note from looking at its tax due date and its last V5c issued date, Im pretty sure GPB629N was a one user car in use continuously with the same user from first registration, without any breaks until it was finally given up/taken off the road

 

 

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30 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

(funnily enough Big Al, (of Garden of Mk12's fame) has a Fairthorpe himself, 9000NX)

speaking of Invacar Mk12's I have recently been talking with the owner of the private example that was for sale in South Africa a while back (it did not sell in the end), and I got kindly got given some more detailed pictures of it which has helped me solve a Mystery that me and Stuart had

in that there seemed to be Invacar Mk12A's that post dated some Invacar Mk12B's that we knew about, and these Late Mk12A's looked like someone blacked over the B on the chassis plate and over stamped an A 

and indeed looking at the detailed pictures of this South African Mk12A, thats exactly the case! which is most curious!

271732180_678196859843188_3078647100230292774_n.thumb.jpg.51e85e3636dfa295f91fc21f912d223e.jpg

now the one Major difference between an Invacar Mk12A and an Invacar Mk12B is with the Mk12B Invacar introduced the sliding drivers seat to allow the driver to pull the seat closer to the curb, get in, slide back into driving position and pulling  their wheel chair in with them

however I noticed on this Mk12A, that it had a slide over bench where the wheel chair normally goes, (a platform the user can slide their along to get to the drivers seat) now this of course means you cant have a sliding main seat

and so I wondered, perhaps for Invacar Mk12B's where the slide over bench was specified rather then a sliding seat, did Invacar actually mark those as Mk12A's since they did not have the haul-mark feature of the Mk12B?

and indeed that looks to be the case :)

 as PEV627D is another case of the over stamped A on B (in fact PEV is the original car that started this mystery of Mk12A's post-dating known Mk12B's!) 

PEV627D-VIN.jpg

and it indeed also has a slide over bench rather then a sliding seat, exactly like the SA car :) 

DSC_5345_1280x848.thumb.jpg.8c31a8ff4a924a2ce2a3c329c1600b05.jpg

and ONO454D which is a Mk12B (that pre dates PEV), indeed does not have a slide over bench as you would expect from a machine with a sliding seat instead

11948277.jpg

IMG_4213.JPG

so yeah im quite pleased to have finally gotten to the bottom of the Mystery Late Mk12A's!

I have to say it is quite interesting how Invacar went through the trouble of re-marking the chassis plates like that for non sliding seat machines!, and it also technically means that the Invacar Mk12A and Mk12B where in production at the same time! I do wonder how long it continued for like this, if it A's and B's continued in production side by side until the Mk12c, or did the practice of re-marking chassis plates end at some point before the Mk12B itself was discontinued

(Invacar would not have remarked a non sliding seat Mk12c as a Mk12A because the Mk12c had a whole bunch of other changes that separated it from earlier marks, so even without a sliding seat a Mk12c would still be a Mk12c if that makes sense!)

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34 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

a slide over bench where the wheel chair normally goes, (a platform the user can slide their along to get to the drivers seat) 

Dolly the Model 70 featured that fixed bench, with the main seat being fixed in position with bolts and also the end of the release handle cut off so that the seat can't be released easily from its set position! I hadn't really thought about the implications of this on wheelchair carriage, but with the handbrake being floor-mounted on the RHS and the fixed bench being on the LHS, of course there is no space available for a wheelchair. Was the last person to whom Dolly was assigned not a wheelchair user or did they have access to a wheelchair at the origin and destination of each jounrey and so didn't need to carry one along with them? Maybe they were able to walk, perhaps aided by sticks or crutches, but didn't have the specific mobility required to slide the seat sideways. It's an interesting one to ponder.

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1 hour ago, Mrs6C said:

Dolly the Model 70 featured that fixed bench, with the main seat being fixed in position with bolts and also the end of the release handle cut off so that the seat can't be released easily from its set position! I hadn't really thought about the implications of this on wheelchair carriage, but with the handbrake being floor-mounted on the RHS and the fixed bench being on the LHS, of course there is no space available for a wheelchair. Was the last person to whom Dolly was assigned not a wheelchair user or did they have access to a wheelchair at the origin and destination of each jounrey and so didn't need to carry one along with them? Maybe they were able to walk, perhaps aided by sticks or crutches, but didn't have the specific mobility required to slide the seat sideways. It's an interesting one to ponder.

indeed its similar to Dolly's setup

although Her setup is even more unusual :)  in that the slide over bench is actually on the right offside of the car with her floor mounted parking brake being on the left nearside where the wheel chair would go

so its the floor mounted handbrake that prevents the ability to bring a wheel chair into the vehicle in this case :) and also prevents the user from easily getting into the car on that side 

hence the wooden slide-over box on her right side so the user can still easily get in and out of the vehicle which is an interesting item in its own right, because the Model 70 (and previous machines as well) is meant to be entered and exited from the left nearside, (its only the nearside that has a wide enough gap for a folding wheel chair for example) so for the Model 70 they made a standard sliding seat for those that needed one for the nearside of the vehicle, as seen here on UPF516M

UPF516M.jpg

(which I THINK may also tip up to allow you to still bring a wheel chair into the car, but dont hold me to that! I have not had an opportunity  to inspect one of these sliding seats in detail sadly, something for me to bug the owner of UPF about LOL)

but no such standard item existed for the right hand side AFAIK hence the simple upholstered wooden box in Dolly :) which in turn meant the Heater controls where relocated to under the dashboard, another very unusual feature (and although was "common" enough to be noted in in later editions of the Model 70 Users handbook, is something thats only ever been seen on Dolly)

Dolly is a very good example of a Model 70 adapted to suit the needs of a specific user, with her 13.5 inch steering wheel, with hand throttle/brake, vacuum brake booster,  floor mounted handbrake, right hand slide over box and dash mounted heater controls

(Steering wheel Model 70's normally had 15 inch wheels, but 13.5 and 12 inch steering wheels are also referenced in the technical drawings, so I believe the 13.5 inch one is is whats fitted to Dolly)

I mean the only parts of Dolly's setup that you can find in the standard Model 70 DHSS parts list is the floor mounted handbrake assembly and the vacuum brake booster!

 

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2 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

Mk12A

271732180_678196859843188_3078647100230292774_n.thumb.jpg.51e85e3636dfa295f91fc21f912d223e.jpg

 

When Stuart publishes his big book, I do hope that he will be using Roman numerals, to denote invalid carriage models where appropriate.

Note the use of them on the above MARK XII, showing that this is how the manufacturer named the vehicle, along with not abbreviating MARK to 'mk'.

It is nice when things are done correctly. 🙂

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12 hours ago, Mrs6C said:

Dolly the Model 70 featured that fixed bench, with the main seat being fixed in position with bolts and also the end of the release handle cut off so that the seat can't be released easily from its set position! I hadn't really thought about the implications of this on wheelchair carriage, but with the handbrake being floor-mounted on the RHS and the fixed bench being on the LHS, of course there is no space available for a wheelchair. Was the last person to whom Dolly was assigned not a wheelchair user or did they have access to a wheelchair at the origin and destination of each jounrey and so didn't need to carry one along with them? Maybe they were able to walk, perhaps aided by sticks or crutches, but didn't have the specific mobility required to slide the seat sideways. It's an interesting one to ponder.

Dolly is certainly an interesting one. The impression I get is that her user could walk unaided, hence had no need for crutch/wheelchair storage, but had weak or deformed arms (perhaps a Thalidomide victim?). We know from the manual that steering wheel cars were intended for users with arm disabilities, and the low-effort handbrake would support that, as would the box to slide in and out as they couldn't lift themselves out of the seat. As for why the box is on the right, maybe they lived on the right-hand side of a one-way street and always parked with that side against the kerb.

I wonder how Dolly left the factory and how many of the modifications are post-manufacture, done by the DHSS or the local agent to suit that particular user's disability. There might not be another exactly like her so she's a good example of their bespoke nature.

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1 hour ago, quicksilver said:

Dolly is certainly an interesting one. The impression I get is that her user could walk unaided, hence had no need for crutch/wheelchair storage, but had weak or deformed arms (perhaps a Thalidomide victim?). We know from the manual that steering wheel cars were intended for users with arm disabilities, and the low-effort handbrake would support that, as would the box to slide in and out as they couldn't lift themselves out of the seat. As for why the box is on the right, maybe they lived on the right-hand side of a one-way street and always parked with that side against the kerb.

I wonder how Dolly left the factory and how many of the modifications are post-manufacture, done by the DHSS or the local agent to suit that particular user's disability. There might not be another exactly like her so she's a good example of their bespoke nature.

yeah she is an interesting one alright!

although my impression is a little different in that I would think if her user could walk ok, then id of expected Dolly to more likely have foot pedals like GPG721K does

if you have weak arms, I imagine the last thing you want to have to do is also have to use them for throttle/brake, although the brake booster does suggest they tried to alleviate that issue, and perhaps the user could walk relatively speaking but could not operate foot pedals for a long time? (speaking from a little bit of personal experience there!) so you could still be right with your impression :) 

I suspect her user may have used crutches or indeed a wheelchair but did not need to take it with them (or maybe they did, but such was the adaptions needed that something had to give?)

and I wonder if the Left hand, floor parking brake was placed there because that the users good/stronger side? although id of expected the hand controls to be mounted on the left side if that was the case...

for good measure a picture @Zelandeth took that nicely shows the layout of things :) 

image.thumb.png.803c2bc4a8b4e03b07aeebc79beec550.png

the other question I have of course is how many users has Dolly actually had! I know she has 5 Keeper changes recorded in her Ministry timespan, but I do wonder how many of those are actual keeper/user changes, or just the DVLA being the DVLA

I have seen a few times, address change get recorded as a keeper change, in-fact I know someone who owned a classic beetle back in the day, and they moved a lot while they owned it, and each change of address was recorded as a keeper change, so by the end of that period it had 9 "previous Keepers"

and I also know @dollywobbler's 2CV has a Keeper change recorded in the mid 2000's despite him owning it since long before said keeper change!, 

I am pretty confident on Dolly's front that Keeper number 5 was the Ministry themselves as she like other late surviving cars has the same December 2002 keeper change as all of those do 

its a shame the GDPR ruined the V888!

 

speaking of Dolly, I found a Tax disk on ebay for one her close relatives so to speak! OPH776R in this case :) 

s-l1600-15.thumb.jpg.5fbd60cf32d07232c278b4e2ba08e201.jpg

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/184979617468

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1 hour ago, dollywobbler said:

Ah. The change of owner on my 2CV is because I got lazy and found it easier to send the V5 off for a change of owner rather than change of surname when I got married...

ah that explains that :) I figured it was due to the DVLA recording a simple name change as a keeper change, did not realise you actually did a keeper change!

 

BTW speaking of previous keepers etc!, while I have you here so to speak I understand it might be burried down the back of the unit or such, but I noticed a while back that you said you got 2 logbooks for TWC from the DVLA  

On 10/01/2019 at 20:32, dollywobbler said:

Then I received TWO log books, one at 9999cc, one at 493cc. DVLA can be very iffy.

you dont still happen to have the 2nd one somewhere?

as you know I am very interested in seeing what the previous keeper of TWC is recorded as, so I am hoping this 2nd Logbook might be our saving grace after what happened with the first logbook!

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On 1/23/2022 at 3:20 PM, LightBulbFun said:

BTW speaking of previous keepers etc!, while I have you here so to speak I understand it might be buried down the back of the unit or such, but I noticed a while back that you said you got 2 logbooks for TWC from the DVLA  

you dont still happen to have the 2nd one somewhere?

as you know I am very interested in seeing what the previous keeper of TWC is recorded as, so I am hoping this 2nd Logbook might be our saving grace after what happened with the first logbook!

I honestly can't remember! I don't think I would have kept it though.

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2 hours ago, dollywobbler said:

I honestly can't remember! I don't think I would have kept it though.

aww! was worth a shout LOL

the keepership "path" if that makes sense, of invalid vehicles throughout their Ministry service is something that we sadlydont know all that much about, especially of the vehicles which where in Service post March 2003, as good number of those  have the same December 2002 keeper change down, (but TWC is one of the few vehicles that survived post March 2003 but does not have said 2002 keeper change)

so thats something I am especially keen to find out about :) 

my current theory there is this December 2002 Keeper change was the Ministry transferring keepership of these vehicles they knew would be in service to the very end, to themselves so when time came for these late service machines to come off the road, the Users could not pull anything funny on them

especially such that you said TWC's previous keeper did have the "DHSS" as part of its last keeper details, and if TWC was already registered to the DHSS back in 1997 the date of her last keeper change before yours, then it would explain why she does not have the 2002 keepership change most other late service machines do

but I do wonder, if this theory of mine is true, I still wonder where they directly registered to the DHSS in Warbreck Hill, or where they registered to the machines/users Local ALAC? (artificial limb and appliance centre) which is who the courtesy/temporary user machines (which is what I suspect TWC was) where registered too

but the big problem is, most Model 70's that survive today have either already passed through a number of private keepers since being rescued, so any previous keeper if the current V5c is old enough to have that detail, will just be of the previous private owners details *( for example @st185cs's MHJ22P will Just have Barry Lee's details down on the previous keeper section)

 or where only rescued/had their logbook applied for post GDPR and such their V5's just do not contain any previous keeper info sadly

*unless someone out there did keep copies of their old V5's (something I was most fortunate to get with REV was a photocopy of her 1985 V5. which shows who her first keeper was in the previous keeper section, im guessing this photo copy was done when she was being sold by her 2nd keeper in the Year 2000 to the previous keeper before me )

 

(which is why I am always of the mentality that the moment you get a vehicle, to apply and get the logbook for it ASAP, before any rule changes ruin your day etc even if you dont plan on doing anything with it in the next 10 years or ever actually using it on the road)

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21 minutes ago, martc said:

image.png.0035bd0a255a892e1cb56cf18f4c402c.png

Coventry, apparently, or could be Stamford Bridge, I dunno.

ah yeah! thats one of the more common photos I have seen :) I still appreciate the heads up tho!

image.png.5e37fc26ad632c21d203ca6f624398d7.png

its interesting hows theres usually a set of photos that are always the ones posted when someone is talking about Invacars somewhere, im guessing thats because these are the ones that are royalty free ones or the first ones to pop up when someone smashes Invacar into google :) 

my favourite example of the use of these common photos is from before @quicksilver knew otherwise, when he did his first blog post of Invacars and talked about how you could not buy one , yet using the common photo of NPN924P, completely unaware that, NPN924P is a Private Model 70 that someone did buy new for themselves!! still tickles me :) (TBF when I first read that blog post I had no idea either!)

14 minutes ago, Agila said:

Just seen these at Brighton itv4. Can't get away from these things.

 

20220125_191558.jpg

@Six-cylinder probably rolled his eyes and said the same thing! :) 

 

On 24/05/2020 at 16:36, Six-cylinder said:

I hope this helps with the number plate of the football cars.

I had a hunch, waited for a corner and sure enough the cameras zoomed in!

Invacar MPH723.jpg

 

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