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LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...


LightBulbFun

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15 minutes ago, mitsisigma01 said:

Can anyone make this into a GIF , from Whoops Apocalypse apparently. 

1697093746_i001070586(1).jpg.541a20701c04dc3ceb87be94d709257a.jpg 

 

LOL I already did many pages ago :) (which made it all the more amusing when someone tried to use it against me/my thread/Invacars at one point as the only place they would of found it is if they where closely following my thread!)

question is can you find it :) 

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Hey @LightBulbFun. I was watching an old episode of One Foot in the Grave (I don't believe it!)  and look what popped up:

IMG_20220122_213603888.thumb.jpg.0a772fdaf9960b9bbf2ef6814bdb4bda.jpg

I did a search of the forum and I saw that you had mentioned the GPB number plate range but not this exact car. A DVLA check lists it as an AC Electric so it wasn't wearing show plates. 

Apologies if you have seen it before 🙂

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2 hours ago, Dick Longbridge said:

If things don't work out with the Invacar, you should go for the posh Fairthorpe Electrina. It looks like the obvious upgrade! 

https://www.carandclassic.com/car/C1371075

Edit: I see you've already been tagged in Chris' tweet... 😉

Screenshot_20220122-193316_Chrome.jpg

haha yeah! I was going to respond earlier before the edit and say funnily enough your not the first person to tag me in that! :) 

(funnily enough Big Al, (of Garden of Mk12's fame) has a Fairthorpe himself, 9000NX)

14 minutes ago, Blake's Den said:

Hey @LightBulbFun. I was watching an old episode of One Foot in the Grave (I don't believe it!)  and look what popped up:

IMG_20220122_213603888.thumb.jpg.0a772fdaf9960b9bbf2ef6814bdb4bda.jpg

I did a search of the forum and I saw that you had mentioned the GPB number plate range but not this exact car. A DVLA check lists it as an AC Electric so it wasn't wearing show plates. 

Apologies if you have seen it before 🙂

I have already seen it, but as always thanks for the heads up :) and it does feature somewhere in this thread where it was posted by another member who was also kindly giving me the heads up :) 

(its also on the IMCDB so I have known about it for a long time now :) ) but otherwise I have just not had much need to speak about GPB629N specifically, tho I do wonder where they where borrowed it from, I know it was already de-licensed for about a year when that episode was shot, so im guessing it was borrowed from a local repairers "going to be scrapped" pile

as a side note from looking at its tax due date and its last V5c issued date, Im pretty sure GPB629N was a one user car in use continuously with the same user from first registration, without any breaks until it was finally given up/taken off the road

 

 

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30 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

(funnily enough Big Al, (of Garden of Mk12's fame) has a Fairthorpe himself, 9000NX)

speaking of Invacar Mk12's I have recently been talking with the owner of the private example that was for sale in South Africa a while back (it did not sell in the end), and I got kindly got given some more detailed pictures of it which has helped me solve a Mystery that me and Stuart had

in that there seemed to be Invacar Mk12A's that post dated some Invacar Mk12B's that we knew about, and these Late Mk12A's looked like someone blacked over the B on the chassis plate and over stamped an A 

and indeed looking at the detailed pictures of this South African Mk12A, thats exactly the case! which is most curious!

271732180_678196859843188_3078647100230292774_n.thumb.jpg.51e85e3636dfa295f91fc21f912d223e.jpg

now the one Major difference between an Invacar Mk12A and an Invacar Mk12B is with the Mk12B Invacar introduced the sliding drivers seat to allow the driver to pull the seat closer to the curb, get in, slide back into driving position and pulling  their wheel chair in with them

however I noticed on this Mk12A, that it had a slide over bench where the wheel chair normally goes, (a platform the user can slide their along to get to the drivers seat) now this of course means you cant have a sliding main seat

and so I wondered, perhaps for Invacar Mk12B's where the slide over bench was specified rather then a sliding seat, did Invacar actually mark those as Mk12A's since they did not have the haul-mark feature of the Mk12B?

and indeed that looks to be the case :)

 as PEV627D is another case of the over stamped A on B (in fact PEV is the original car that started this mystery of Mk12A's post-dating known Mk12B's!) 

PEV627D-VIN.jpg

and it indeed also has a slide over bench rather then a sliding seat, exactly like the SA car :) 

DSC_5345_1280x848.thumb.jpg.8c31a8ff4a924a2ce2a3c329c1600b05.jpg

and ONO454D which is a Mk12B (that pre dates PEV), indeed does not have a slide over bench as you would expect from a machine with a sliding seat instead

11948277.jpg

IMG_4213.JPG

so yeah im quite pleased to have finally gotten to the bottom of the Mystery Late Mk12A's!

I have to say it is quite interesting how Invacar went through the trouble of re-marking the chassis plates like that for non sliding seat machines!, and it also technically means that the Invacar Mk12A and Mk12B where in production at the same time! I do wonder how long it continued for like this, if it A's and B's continued in production side by side until the Mk12c, or did the practice of re-marking chassis plates end at some point before the Mk12B itself was discontinued

(Invacar would not have remarked a non sliding seat Mk12c as a Mk12A because the Mk12c had a whole bunch of other changes that separated it from earlier marks, so even without a sliding seat a Mk12c would still be a Mk12c if that makes sense!)

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34 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

a slide over bench where the wheel chair normally goes, (a platform the user can slide their along to get to the drivers seat) 

Dolly the Model 70 featured that fixed bench, with the main seat being fixed in position with bolts and also the end of the release handle cut off so that the seat can't be released easily from its set position! I hadn't really thought about the implications of this on wheelchair carriage, but with the handbrake being floor-mounted on the RHS and the fixed bench being on the LHS, of course there is no space available for a wheelchair. Was the last person to whom Dolly was assigned not a wheelchair user or did they have access to a wheelchair at the origin and destination of each jounrey and so didn't need to carry one along with them? Maybe they were able to walk, perhaps aided by sticks or crutches, but didn't have the specific mobility required to slide the seat sideways. It's an interesting one to ponder.

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1 hour ago, Mrs6C said:

Dolly the Model 70 featured that fixed bench, with the main seat being fixed in position with bolts and also the end of the release handle cut off so that the seat can't be released easily from its set position! I hadn't really thought about the implications of this on wheelchair carriage, but with the handbrake being floor-mounted on the RHS and the fixed bench being on the LHS, of course there is no space available for a wheelchair. Was the last person to whom Dolly was assigned not a wheelchair user or did they have access to a wheelchair at the origin and destination of each jounrey and so didn't need to carry one along with them? Maybe they were able to walk, perhaps aided by sticks or crutches, but didn't have the specific mobility required to slide the seat sideways. It's an interesting one to ponder.

indeed its similar to Dolly's setup

although Her setup is even more unusual :)  in that the slide over bench is actually on the right offside of the car with her floor mounted parking brake being on the left nearside where the wheel chair would go

so its the floor mounted handbrake that prevents the ability to bring a wheel chair into the vehicle in this case :) and also prevents the user from easily getting into the car on that side 

hence the wooden slide-over box on her right side so the user can still easily get in and out of the vehicle which is an interesting item in its own right, because the Model 70 (and previous machines as well) is meant to be entered and exited from the left nearside, (its only the nearside that has a wide enough gap for a folding wheel chair for example) so for the Model 70 they made a standard sliding seat for those that needed one for the nearside of the vehicle, as seen here on UPF516M

UPF516M.jpg

(which I THINK may also tip up to allow you to still bring a wheel chair into the car, but dont hold me to that! I have not had an opportunity  to inspect one of these sliding seats in detail sadly, something for me to bug the owner of UPF about LOL)

but no such standard item existed for the right hand side AFAIK hence the simple upholstered wooden box in Dolly :) which in turn meant the Heater controls where relocated to under the dashboard, another very unusual feature (and although was "common" enough to be noted in in later editions of the Model 70 Users handbook, is something thats only ever been seen on Dolly)

Dolly is a very good example of a Model 70 adapted to suit the needs of a specific user, with her 13.5 inch steering wheel, with hand throttle/brake, vacuum brake booster,  floor mounted handbrake, right hand slide over box and dash mounted heater controls

(Steering wheel Model 70's normally had 15 inch wheels, but 13.5 and 12 inch steering wheels are also referenced in the technical drawings, so I believe the 13.5 inch one is is whats fitted to Dolly)

I mean the only parts of Dolly's setup that you can find in the standard Model 70 DHSS parts list is the floor mounted handbrake assembly and the vacuum brake booster!

 

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2 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

Mk12A

271732180_678196859843188_3078647100230292774_n.thumb.jpg.51e85e3636dfa295f91fc21f912d223e.jpg

 

When Stuart publishes his big book, I do hope that he will be using Roman numerals, to denote invalid carriage models where appropriate.

Note the use of them on the above MARK XII, showing that this is how the manufacturer named the vehicle, along with not abbreviating MARK to 'mk'.

It is nice when things are done correctly. 🙂

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12 hours ago, Mrs6C said:

Dolly the Model 70 featured that fixed bench, with the main seat being fixed in position with bolts and also the end of the release handle cut off so that the seat can't be released easily from its set position! I hadn't really thought about the implications of this on wheelchair carriage, but with the handbrake being floor-mounted on the RHS and the fixed bench being on the LHS, of course there is no space available for a wheelchair. Was the last person to whom Dolly was assigned not a wheelchair user or did they have access to a wheelchair at the origin and destination of each jounrey and so didn't need to carry one along with them? Maybe they were able to walk, perhaps aided by sticks or crutches, but didn't have the specific mobility required to slide the seat sideways. It's an interesting one to ponder.

Dolly is certainly an interesting one. The impression I get is that her user could walk unaided, hence had no need for crutch/wheelchair storage, but had weak or deformed arms (perhaps a Thalidomide victim?). We know from the manual that steering wheel cars were intended for users with arm disabilities, and the low-effort handbrake would support that, as would the box to slide in and out as they couldn't lift themselves out of the seat. As for why the box is on the right, maybe they lived on the right-hand side of a one-way street and always parked with that side against the kerb.

I wonder how Dolly left the factory and how many of the modifications are post-manufacture, done by the DHSS or the local agent to suit that particular user's disability. There might not be another exactly like her so she's a good example of their bespoke nature.

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1 hour ago, quicksilver said:

Dolly is certainly an interesting one. The impression I get is that her user could walk unaided, hence had no need for crutch/wheelchair storage, but had weak or deformed arms (perhaps a Thalidomide victim?). We know from the manual that steering wheel cars were intended for users with arm disabilities, and the low-effort handbrake would support that, as would the box to slide in and out as they couldn't lift themselves out of the seat. As for why the box is on the right, maybe they lived on the right-hand side of a one-way street and always parked with that side against the kerb.

I wonder how Dolly left the factory and how many of the modifications are post-manufacture, done by the DHSS or the local agent to suit that particular user's disability. There might not be another exactly like her so she's a good example of their bespoke nature.

yeah she is an interesting one alright!

although my impression is a little different in that I would think if her user could walk ok, then id of expected Dolly to more likely have foot pedals like GPG721K does

if you have weak arms, I imagine the last thing you want to have to do is also have to use them for throttle/brake, although the brake booster does suggest they tried to alleviate that issue, and perhaps the user could walk relatively speaking but could not operate foot pedals for a long time? (speaking from a little bit of personal experience there!) so you could still be right with your impression :) 

I suspect her user may have used crutches or indeed a wheelchair but did not need to take it with them (or maybe they did, but such was the adaptions needed that something had to give?)

and I wonder if the Left hand, floor parking brake was placed there because that the users good/stronger side? although id of expected the hand controls to be mounted on the left side if that was the case...

for good measure a picture @Zelandeth took that nicely shows the layout of things :) 

image.thumb.png.803c2bc4a8b4e03b07aeebc79beec550.png

the other question I have of course is how many users has Dolly actually had! I know she has 5 Keeper changes recorded in her Ministry timespan, but I do wonder how many of those are actual keeper/user changes, or just the DVLA being the DVLA

I have seen a few times, address change get recorded as a keeper change, in-fact I know someone who owned a classic beetle back in the day, and they moved a lot while they owned it, and each change of address was recorded as a keeper change, so by the end of that period it had 9 "previous Keepers"

and I also know @dollywobbler's 2CV has a Keeper change recorded in the mid 2000's despite him owning it since long before said keeper change!, 

I am pretty confident on Dolly's front that Keeper number 5 was the Ministry themselves as she like other late surviving cars has the same December 2002 keeper change as all of those do 

its a shame the GDPR ruined the V888!

 

speaking of Dolly, I found a Tax disk on ebay for one her close relatives so to speak! OPH776R in this case :) 

s-l1600-15.thumb.jpg.5fbd60cf32d07232c278b4e2ba08e201.jpg

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/184979617468

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1 hour ago, dollywobbler said:

Ah. The change of owner on my 2CV is because I got lazy and found it easier to send the V5 off for a change of owner rather than change of surname when I got married...

ah that explains that :) I figured it was due to the DVLA recording a simple name change as a keeper change, did not realise you actually did a keeper change!

 

BTW speaking of previous keepers etc!, while I have you here so to speak I understand it might be burried down the back of the unit or such, but I noticed a while back that you said you got 2 logbooks for TWC from the DVLA  

On 10/01/2019 at 20:32, dollywobbler said:

Then I received TWO log books, one at 9999cc, one at 493cc. DVLA can be very iffy.

you dont still happen to have the 2nd one somewhere?

as you know I am very interested in seeing what the previous keeper of TWC is recorded as, so I am hoping this 2nd Logbook might be our saving grace after what happened with the first logbook!

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On 1/23/2022 at 3:20 PM, LightBulbFun said:

BTW speaking of previous keepers etc!, while I have you here so to speak I understand it might be buried down the back of the unit or such, but I noticed a while back that you said you got 2 logbooks for TWC from the DVLA  

you dont still happen to have the 2nd one somewhere?

as you know I am very interested in seeing what the previous keeper of TWC is recorded as, so I am hoping this 2nd Logbook might be our saving grace after what happened with the first logbook!

I honestly can't remember! I don't think I would have kept it though.

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2 hours ago, dollywobbler said:

I honestly can't remember! I don't think I would have kept it though.

aww! was worth a shout LOL

the keepership "path" if that makes sense, of invalid vehicles throughout their Ministry service is something that we sadlydont know all that much about, especially of the vehicles which where in Service post March 2003, as good number of those  have the same December 2002 keeper change down, (but TWC is one of the few vehicles that survived post March 2003 but does not have said 2002 keeper change)

so thats something I am especially keen to find out about :) 

my current theory there is this December 2002 Keeper change was the Ministry transferring keepership of these vehicles they knew would be in service to the very end, to themselves so when time came for these late service machines to come off the road, the Users could not pull anything funny on them

especially such that you said TWC's previous keeper did have the "DHSS" as part of its last keeper details, and if TWC was already registered to the DHSS back in 1997 the date of her last keeper change before yours, then it would explain why she does not have the 2002 keepership change most other late service machines do

but I do wonder, if this theory of mine is true, I still wonder where they directly registered to the DHSS in Warbreck Hill, or where they registered to the machines/users Local ALAC? (artificial limb and appliance centre) which is who the courtesy/temporary user machines (which is what I suspect TWC was) where registered too

but the big problem is, most Model 70's that survive today have either already passed through a number of private keepers since being rescued, so any previous keeper if the current V5c is old enough to have that detail, will just be of the previous private owners details *( for example @st185cs's MHJ22P will Just have Barry Lee's details down on the previous keeper section)

 or where only rescued/had their logbook applied for post GDPR and such their V5's just do not contain any previous keeper info sadly

*unless someone out there did keep copies of their old V5's (something I was most fortunate to get with REV was a photocopy of her 1985 V5. which shows who her first keeper was in the previous keeper section, im guessing this photo copy was done when she was being sold by her 2nd keeper in the Year 2000 to the previous keeper before me )

 

(which is why I am always of the mentality that the moment you get a vehicle, to apply and get the logbook for it ASAP, before any rule changes ruin your day etc even if you dont plan on doing anything with it in the next 10 years or ever actually using it on the road)

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21 minutes ago, martc said:

image.png.0035bd0a255a892e1cb56cf18f4c402c.png

Coventry, apparently, or could be Stamford Bridge, I dunno.

ah yeah! thats one of the more common photos I have seen :) I still appreciate the heads up tho!

image.png.5e37fc26ad632c21d203ca6f624398d7.png

its interesting hows theres usually a set of photos that are always the ones posted when someone is talking about Invacars somewhere, im guessing thats because these are the ones that are royalty free ones or the first ones to pop up when someone smashes Invacar into google :) 

my favourite example of the use of these common photos is from before @quicksilver knew otherwise, when he did his first blog post of Invacars and talked about how you could not buy one , yet using the common photo of NPN924P, completely unaware that, NPN924P is a Private Model 70 that someone did buy new for themselves!! still tickles me :) (TBF when I first read that blog post I had no idea either!)

14 minutes ago, Agila said:

Just seen these at Brighton itv4. Can't get away from these things.

 

20220125_191558.jpg

@Six-cylinder probably rolled his eyes and said the same thing! :) 

 

On 24/05/2020 at 16:36, Six-cylinder said:

I hope this helps with the number plate of the football cars.

I had a hunch, waited for a corner and sure enough the cameras zoomed in!

Invacar MPH723.jpg

 

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Managed to Unearth this nice photo last night :) 

Shutterstock_509208qa.thumb.jpeg.4742d40b5298142dea2dac864002ca6f.jpeg

notable because you can actually see one of the original/older style of Fire extinguisher setups

image.thumb.png.084c269b35da020326cd8dc30390344b.png

I had seen remnants of these in surviving Model 70's but I have never actually seen one in place, I knew they where of an aerosol design, but I had no idea that they literally do look like a can of whipped cream LOL

that would be a rather embarrassing mix up LOL, the Model 70 also still has its "running in" sticker still in place :) seems like a lot of people never actually bothered to remove them once the running in was complete

 

 

interestingly the photo looks to be from a TV or the set of a TV show? 

looks to be from a TV show https://www.shutterstock.com/editorial/image-editorial/roger-tonge-'crossroads'---1970s-509208qa

 https://www.sloughcrossroads.org.uk/news-article-lorem-ipsum-dolor-sit-amet-consectetur-adipiscing/

was MVW448P actually used in filming or not I wonder? or was it just that Actors own Ministry issued Model 70? (it Survived until 2001 which is pretty good going :)

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2 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

notable because you can actually see one of the original/older style of Fire extinguisher setups

Also the seat is the 'not so common' grey like Dolly's, rather than the more usual dark blue...

The tax disc shows 31-12-79, so I guess the photo was taken in that year. 'Crossroads' was a soap opera, set in a Midlands motel called 'Crossroads'. It was famed for having a rather wobbly set, so that on occasion, viewers could see the walls move when a door was slammed!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossroads_(British_TV_series)

Have you seen this one?
https://www.shutterstock.com/editorial/image-editorial/ac-thundersley-invacar-car-disabled-person-432839ai

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25 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

Also the seat is the 'not so common' grey like Dolly's, rather than the more usual dark blue...

Indeed! speaking of Dolly while I have managed to find it again, for those curious to compare with Dolly's suspected 13.5 inch steering wheel,

image.png

 here is an example of an Invacar Model 70 with what I believe to be the 12 inch steering wheel option (and 4 foot pedals which always tickles me given the Model 70 is an Automatic, but 1 pair will be parking brake set and parking brake release while of course the other pair will be hydraulic foot brake and throttle)

IMG_1073 1.JPG

and for reference an AC Model 70 with the standard 15 inch Steering wheel option, that most steering wheel Model 70's had fitted

884444570c8dda02df8945b23ea3e6ae.jpg

 

25 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

indeed I have :) I appreciate the heads up as always :) 

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1 hour ago, LightBulbFun said:

 here is an example of an Invacar Model 70 with what I believe to be the 12 inch steering wheel option (and 4 foot pedals which always tickles me given the Model 70 is an Automatic, but 1 pair will be parking brake set and parking brake release while of course the other pair will be hydraulic foot brake and throttle)

IMG_1073 1.JPG

That's an odd one. It's got a massively extended steering column suggesting its driver had very short arms, in which case how on earth were they supposed to reach the switches on the dashboard? Were they given some kind of ministry-issued reaching broom?

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Nice to finally have confirmation that that bloody annoying Terry clip was indeed for the original fire extinguisher and what it looked like.  Wouldn't be too hard to make a convincing enough looking replica for show use if you wanted - though I'd obviously keep it well away from the car other than on a show ground and make sure there is a clear label saying it's not real!

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2 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

Nice to finally have confirmation that that bloody annoying Terry clip was indeed for the original fire extinguisher and what it looked like.  Wouldn't be too hard to make a convincing enough looking replica for show use if you wanted - though I'd obviously keep it well away from the car other than on a show ground and make sure there is a clear label saying it's not real!

Yeah I did think about TPA but it is interesting because I think TPA had a different type still, similar to OVW's but not the same

 the Terry Clip on TPA is on the right/offside of the car, much like whats shown in the drawings in the workshop manual

image.png

and the drawing looks quite similar to what I have seen in a period photo of an AC Model 67  (this is the only shot I have sadly, it was the first actual shot i was able to find of the period fire extinguisher)

image.png

and It might just be a perspective thing, but TPAs left over Terry clip and the one in the Model 67 picture and Model 70 drawings looks a bit skinnier then whats in OVW448P where it is also on the left/nearside of the vehicle instead

image.png

so I wonder how much of this is an AC vs Invacar thing or a production over time change, and obviously Fire extinguishers where changed fairly regularly on safety grounds so I imagine there would of been a lot of different types fitted over time :) 

REV also has an interesting thing attached to her Roll over bar 

image.png

which I wonder if was for an Interim type of Fire extinguisher, one that was fitted in the 80s or 90's between the aerosol can type and the introduction of the Chubb type?

(she also does have a Terry clip somewhere, but I think its along the rear window line)

 

as a side note this post took 2 hours to write because as I was writing it I heard a loud bang and a bunch of commotion  outside so I looked outside my window and saw someone having a bad evening

image.thumb.png.e0945f42a093265d8a18354694386cab.png

a rather unfortunate coincidence given the current topic at hand! (we did call the Fire service for those wondering!) thankfully I dont think anyone was hurt

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2 hours ago, quicksilver said:

That's an odd one. It's got a massively extended steering column suggesting its driver had very short arms, in which case how on earth were they supposed to reach the switches on the dashboard? Were they given some kind of ministry-issued reaching broom?

indeed its quite interesting! it also has the mother of all dash change gear levers LOL

there is also something mounted on the dash board to the right of the speedo

and I also notice there looks to be something on the floor offside, an early form of floor mounted heater/choke controls I wonder?

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21 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

Crikey! Had they run into something that exploded? Hope that wasn't in the road that REV and the SD1 occupy!

Yeah! thats what it looked(and sounded!) like to me but I cant quite tell exactly what happened, it definitely looked like something in-front of the car was on fire rather then the car itself being on fire if that makes sense

my current guess is some poor Moped rider ran into it the car or got ran into? (the car is on the wrong side of the road its not a one way street) and then quickly caught fire especially as there where 2 further bangs as I presume  the tyres of said flaming moped went pop...

 

thankfully this did not happen where REV and the SD1 was! (although they probably would of had a decent viewing!)

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2 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

my current guess is some poor Moped rider ran into it the car or got ran into? (the car is on the wrong side of the road its not a one way street) and then quickly caught fire especially as there where 2 further bangs as I presume  the tyres of said flaming moped went pop...

a 7.5 Ton Tilt and slide recovery wagon has just shown up and whisked the lot away

it looks there was indeed a moped (or even a motorcycle it looked quite large) and probably explains the pile of packets and a bag a few meters behind the car. im guessing the rider of the moped and his stuff was sent flying over the car and landed there

curiously at the time of the incident I could not see any rider or driver at the scene

to be brutally honest, I would not be surprised if the case was, the moped was stolen and the car had no insurance so they both legged it LOL

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