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LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...


LightBulbFun

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25 minutes ago, CaptainBoom said:

If it helps you out Dez, I’m heading up your way on Saturday afternoon and back again in the evening. If you would like the battery taken upstairs I can do that to save your back. 

ooh yes please! that would be very much appreciated! and gives me a few days to rest up :)

I think you already have my details from all the lightbulbs and computer bits you have very kindly sent me overtime! but ill PM you my number so you can contact me quickly if needed and let me know if theres anymore details you need!

 

I have to say I am very thankful to all, especially recently with all the fellow forum members that have come to my aid! it is seriously appreciated! 

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44 minutes ago, Harriytait said:

Saw on YouTube today.

https://youtu.be/QjyNyfVgqz8

Oooh! I had been looking for that video again for ages! I found it way back when in the early days on here it was how I discovered the YVX-L block of Invacar Model 70's 

thanks for finding/sharing it again :) 

On 18/11/2019 at 21:22, LightBulbFun said:

but the video must have been pulled sometime back and only re-uploaded yesterday!

tis also a good video for showing a Villiers (AC Acedes Mk14 Model 67 in this case) machine in action and how reverse on them works :) 

I remember being confused at the control scheme I thought by the way the lady was grabbing the tiller bar with 2 hands it must of had bicycle controls, but I now know that she was just grabbing the tiller bar with both hands!

(pretty much all Ministry Villiers machines where Tiller control regardless of how many operable hands/arms you had, so it was common for people with 2 functioning hands to grab the tiller bar with both hands)

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https://www.facebook.com/groups/1964532800535954/posts/3160096840979538

image.thumb.png.4702c82cf93f69346ceff2af6b15f7f9.png

Ooooh Hello there!

now question is, is this a load of Model 70's (or AC Model 67's? you never know! given we can only see the roofs) that need rescuing, or is it just @st185cs's lot that have been papped again like last time LOL

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 Many thanks to @CaptainBoom who came today  and very kindly removed REV's battery for me despite the awful weather! as I predicted it was a right faff to get it out so im glad and thankful I did not have to do it alone!

 I have it on charge on the balcony now :) standing voltage under no load was about 12.5V or there about hopefully it will charge up alright!

 

and I took the opportunity to check and correct REV's tyre pressures with a portable tyre pressure inflator and gauge I got recently from amazon this one for those curious https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B071XTHWQF 

it looks like Adam was able to set all the tyre pressures to how they should be which im pleased about and only 2 of the 3 needed minimal correcting :) 

for those wondering 1 rear was good at 22PSI the other rear was at about 20.5PSI and so topped that back up to 22 and the front was down to 15 so topped that back up to 17 PSI, will be interesting to see how they change overtime! 

 

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5 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

 Many thanks to @CaptainBoom who came today  and very kindly removed REV's battery for me despite the awful weather! as I predicted it was a right faff to get it out so im glad and thankful I did not have to do it alone!

 I have it on charge on the balcony now :) standing voltage under no load was about 12.5V or there about hopefully it will charge up alright!

 

and I took the opportunity to check and correct REV's tyre pressures with a portable tyre pressure inflator and gauge I got recently from amazon this one for those curious https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B071XTHWQF 

it looks like Adam was able to set all the tyre pressures to how they should be which im pleased about and only 2 of the 3 needed minimal correcting :) 

for those wondering 1 rear was good at 22PSI the other rear was at about 20.5PSI and so topped that back up to 22 and the front was down to 15 so topped that back up to 17 PSI, will be interesting to see how they change overtime! 

 

No problems, I'm glad of the excuse to get out for a bit!

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Spent a little time this morning and  managed to trial fit everything of importance to the chassis, thankfully everything lined up and fitted straight up . My friend James has been heavily involved with making the chassis so I'm not surprised it is bang on as for a man of his talents it's really a minor project. Here are a couple of pictures of the chassis and one also of one of James' more involved projects, a full scale 3 ton Ruston Proctor steam  tractor that he built from surviving drawings of an engine that sadly never made it into preservation. In future is is planned that Brian comes with us and the Ruston when we steam off on the road to rallies, not only can he be displayed but also can provide a convenient way to get to the shop for Cider supplies!

IMG_4644.JPG

IMG_4645.JPG

60819175_10162245686505497_722869246756913152_n.jpg

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37 minutes ago, AdgeCutler said:

Spent a little time this morning and  managed to trial fit everything of importance to the chassis, thankfully everything lined up and fitted straight up . My friend James has been heavily involved with making the chassis so I'm not surprised it is bang on as for a man of his talents it's really a minor project. Here are a couple of pictures of the chassis and one also of one of James' more involved projects, a full scale 3 ton Ruston Proctor steam  tractor that he built from surviving drawings of an engine that sadly never made it into preservation. In future is is planned that Brian comes with us and the Ruston when we steam off on the road to rallies, not only can he be displayed but also can provide a convenient way to get to the shop for Cider supplies!

IMG_4644.JPG

IMG_4645.JPG

60819175_10162245686505497_722869246756913152_n.jpg

wow thats amazing! its awesome to see Brians chassis rolling for the first time :) must have been really satisfying! 

not long to go now! given you got most of the bodywork already sorted! its pretty much just* put it all together again!

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6 hours ago, AdgeCutler said:

Spent a little time this morning and  managed to trial fit everything of importance to the chassis, thankfully everything lined up and fitted straight up

I'm not surprised! You have done a fantastic job there. It is great that you have photographed and recorded the assembly along the way as well, so that I can see how it all hangs together for mine!

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On 27/11/2021 at 15:40, LightBulbFun said:

 I have it on charge on the balcony now :) standing voltage under no load was about 12.5V or there about hopefully it will charge up alright!

 

alright I think I got REV's battery charge now :) 

standing voltage now is 13.5V with no load which I think is pretty good and nothing exploded so I will take that! 

 

it was quite interesting tracking how it behaved/charged I have included some notes bellow so to speak of my observations for those curious

 

I dont have a battery charger but what I do have as an electronics hobbyist is a DC bench-top power supply so what I did was after some research on exactly how you go about charging a lead acid battery, was I charged it from that :) 

I set the current limit to 10% of the rated battery capacity its a 35Ah battery in this case (037 type to be exact) so I set the current limit on the PSU to 3.5A (so the battery cannot draw more then 3.5A from the power supply) so it will just sit there there at whatever voltage allows 3.5A to be drawn this is known as constant current mode

and I I set the max voltage the PSU can output to 14.4V, this means the Power supply will keep trying to push 3.5A into the battery, until the voltage hits 14.4V where it will then stop to not exceed that voltage limit and the battery will draw whatever current it wants to at 14.4V (as long as it does not exceed 3.5A) this is known as constant voltage mode

then I left it charging all of yesterday keeping an eye on it periodically,  until I went to bed where I obviously disconnected it! then today put it back on charge at about 12PM where it finished charging about 30 minutes ago :) 

from what I have researched a lead acid battery is generally considered charged once its current draw decreases to 1% of its rated capacity and thats 0.35A in this case which it hit just a few minutes ago (well actually I disconnected it at 0.28A because I was on the phone! but im sure it will be fine)

 

it will be interesting to see how it does in the morning too, I noticed yesterday I disconnected it it was drawing 0.95A at 14.4V (with a standing no load voltage of 13V) but when I reconnected it this morning it starting charging at 2.4A and then fairly quickly dropped down to 1.4A before slowly tapering off as it did prior till fully charged

so I wonder if it lost some charge over night or this is what lead acid batteries do? its also worth mentioning it is obviously pretty cold outside! not freezing but still single digits so I wonder if the fact that the battery was then at room temperature when I reconnected it back up to charge had an effect?

 

its also interesting to note when I first stuck it on charge yesterday after removing it from REV, the battery had a brief period of high resistance where the voltage shot up to 14.4V and the current was only 2.35A or so, before it then settled down to the 3.5A at 13V or so (which then as you would expect slowly rose to 14.4V and stayed at that voltage as the current slowly dropped ) it would be interesting to know what this initial high resistance was about? I wonder if it was just some sulfate accumulation being "burnt off" from the plates or such?

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8 hours ago, Mrs6C said:

Not actually an invalid car, but AC disguised their Petite as one, to do their R&D trials on Britain's roads!

 

indeed I have seen that a few times and have always been curious how exactly they disguised it as an IC  (keep in mind that the AC Petite Predates the AC Acedes invalid Tricycle which on the surface does look a lot like a Petite,, so they could not have simply disguised it as one of those)

its all the more interesting given the AC All Weather Tricycle based Buckland Runabout that was recently discovered a few months ago :) 

On 16/08/2021 at 18:29, LightBulbFun said:

speaking of 3 wheelers! :)

 

I was recently contacted by Mr @barrett himself as in the archive of his he came across this rather interesting advert/vehicle and wondered if I knew anything about it

20210811_154553.jpg

and I did not, however I found it very fascinating as it very much looked like a regular car version of the AC All Weather Invalid tricycle

and immediately made think of this British Pathe video on the AC All weather Tricycle

where they do mention that a regular car version was in development at the time

I had always thought they where referring to the AC petite, but perhaps they where actually talking about the Buckland runabout

and then I did a bit of googling and found this online which is interesting as its like Barrett's but does not have cancelled across it

47065198711_55801e44a8_o.jpg

and then further to this of course I got talking to Stuart and we discussed things a bit, somewhat unsurprisingly, Stuart did already know of the Buckland, but again with few details

but what we do know is quite interesting

 we are pretty sure that the AC All Weather tricycle came first and that the Buckland runabout is development of it, rather then it potentially  being the other way round as all the stuff we can find on the Buckland is from 1951-1952

where as the AC All weather Tricycle was already on the road in 1949 (I did wonder at first because the Buckland looks like a much more crude machine with its lack of front end bodywork, but perhaps that was done as a cost cutting measure?) 

it looks like the Buckland was introduced curiously at the 1952 Invalid tricycle association rally and was talked about in the September 1952 issue of Magic carpet

where they specifically said that the chassis was that used in the AC invalid tricycle, but that a choice of 2 engines, a Villiers 350cc engine with Electric starting or a Coventry Victor 350cc with Manual starting

(which is interesting on 2 fronts as the AC All Weather Tricycle used a 250cc BSA engine, perhaps they wanted a slightly beefier engine for the full on road car version, and its interesting as the Villiers option sounds a lot like what ended up in the AC petite)

stuart then did a bit of digging as he was sure he did a write up on the Buckland for the RUMCar magazine and indeed he did, here are the relevant excerpts from the RUMCar Magazine Autumn and Winter 2010 :) 

image.thumb.png.b05bcb3624fa888bb62d7dce16d66422.png

image.thumb.png.9888836e25b8d5041d2375e2067d8f86.png

(Note NAP303 is a typo its supposed to be NAR303)

all in all its been quite fascinating to find out that AC did try and develop the AC All Weather Tricycle into a full blown car and to find out there was a missing link between the AC All Weather Tricycle and the AC petite

its like a predecessor to the Model 70 based AC Town cars :) 

it is also interesting to hear that It was Buckland themselves who where proposing it rather then AC

I wonder just how many examples ended up being made and if any survive somewhere!

it is also worth noting that it seems a lot of 1 off special vehicles etc where for some registered as invalid carriages back in the day!

for example the Who-mobile used in old episodes of Dr Who was apparently registered as one and so was the Lotus 51R!

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/17254/lot/360/?category=list

image.thumb.png.20a2aace67e222ca86fdbc8916f6fb59.png

so I do wonder was the AC petite really disguised as an invalid carriage (ie was it fitted with an AC All Weather Tricycle Body)  or was it just simply registered as one?

 

BTW as a Side note Yesterday was Dolly's Your Model 70's 45th birthday :) 

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Many thanks to @CaptainBoom who came by once more to help with me REV :) 

he managed to refit the battery and we even managed to solve the charging issue :) 

theres an inline fuse on the main thick red wire coming from the Dynastart to the regulator box and I had a feeling that might of been causing the issue given the rest of the fuses have given me grief in the past, so we removed it, cleaned up the contacts in the fuse holder which where quite dirty, gave them a spray with some contact cleaner and im pleased to report that it had indeed solved the charging issue :) im glad it was just that a nice easy fix and I know where to look incase it plays up again!, she now charges at a healthy 13.8V~ once you get the engine speed suitably up

I do still at some point want to clean up all the connections on the regulator box and replace all the crusty spade terminals with new ones, for peace of mind but now I can do that in my own time without any urgency  

we also had a play with the throttle cable but no luck there sadly, I however did remember to grab this picture 

image.thumb.png.655c9fe3d0005c5f0f5e94da2d769b8c.png

which shows nicely the problem I have in fitting a new twist grip, every single other twist grip I have tried has its outer cable hole like the size on the right

but the outer cable/ferrule  fitted to REV is skinny like the hole on the left, and I have not been able to find another twist grip with the same setup/thinner outer cable hole

(I also notice that there a hole in the left there I wonder if some sort of pin or such is supposed to go in there to clamp the outers ferrule in place as otherwise there is nothing to hold the ferrule in place at the Twist grip end) 

if anyone knows what this skinny throttle cable outer is about do let me know! if I can find a new twist grip that matches with it then id like to try that first just to fully rule out the knackered twist grip from things

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17 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

every single other twist I have tried has its outer cable hole like the size on the right

How about using a reducing bush, like one of these?
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/mechanical-power-transmission/bushes-collars/reducing-bushes/

Measure up the internal and external diameters you need and look for one online.

Also, you can check to see if the cable will pull cleanly and behave properly without the twist grip involved, by taking the twist grip off and pulling on the end of the cable using something else as a handle to grip the little metal cylinder, like a wooden clothespeg. I'm not suggesting you drive like this, but you should be able to sit in neutral and try different amounts of pull and see if the inner cable moves cleanly and returns to its rest position via the throttle spring, without the twist grip involved.

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7 hours ago, Mrs6C said:

How about using a reducing bush, like one of these?
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/mechanical-power-transmission/bushes-collars/reducing-bushes/

Measure up the internal and external diameters you need and look for one online.

Also, you can check to see if the cable will pull cleanly and behave properly without the twist grip involved, by taking the twist grip off and pulling on the end of the cable using something else as a handle to grip the little metal cylinder, like a wooden clothespeg. I'm not suggesting you drive like this, but you should be able to sit in neutral and try different amounts of pull and see if the inner cable moves cleanly and returns to its rest position via the throttle spring, without the twist grip involved.

Yeah @CaptainBoom is planning to kindly send me some washers and a roll of PTFE tape to see if I can bulk up the ferrule on the end of the throttle cable so it sits snuggly in the larger hole of the new twist grip I have :) (or use a washer on the end of the ferrule for a similar effect to stop it going down the larger hole)

BTW @Zelandeth I noticed while looking at your pictures that you seem to have some sort of rubber boot? where the throttle cable meets the twist grip, what is that about exactly?

just curious as I noticed it, but its not something included with the twist grip set you fitted, and Im wondering is it something im missing?

https://www.classicbikeshop.co.uk/twist-grip-throttle-set-with-beston-grips.html

On 23/11/2021 at 12:04, Zelandeth said:

Just went and grabbed a couple of updated photos to confirm the interior routing of the cable on TPA

IMG_20211123_115412.thumb.jpg.075a10f772fb38802e569d6c5542ba9c.jpg

The cable used to run through the circular cutout in the brake actuator yoke, but that caused the cable to be pulled too taught at times, particularly when reversing into parking spaces. 

IMG_20211123_115429.thumb.jpg.9b982d2784d84eac5ab95764f5342c77.jpg

Did try snapping a couple of photos under the car but you could see everything in them *except* the throttle cable, I'll need to try another time from the other side I guess.

 

On 04/03/2021 at 22:21, Zelandeth said:

Package arrived this morning for TPA.

IMG_20210304_154225.thumb.jpg.7e2c6f8536aa3fc00c50f259d1162016.jpg

Installation was pretty straightforward...Though I still had to fabricate a cable end.  I think I just need to go to Speedy Cables or similar and just order a proper cable.  The issue seems to be that (unsurprisingly) the cable has a standard motorcycle type barrel connector at the handlebar end...but finding off the shelf motorbike throttle cables more than a couple of metres long is tricky - and this needs to be a touch over five metres long because of the routing.  As it is having trimmed away the frayed bit of cable I'm now down to literally millimetres to spare, and it's a bit frilly at the handlebar end so will likely fail again in the not too distant future. 

Nevertheless, it does mean that I've now got matching grips on the handlebars which looks SO much better.

IMG_20210304_170827.thumb.jpg.2e42407cfd9643917a84eee5814043c4.jpg

The throttle action is also way better...It always felt very much as though it wasn't attached to anything before, so you were never quite sure how much throttle you were applying - and I'm not 100% certain that I was ever actually getting full throttle as the old twist grip was distorted and binding up at several points in its travel.  New one is all metal so should hopefully fare better.

New grips are a good deal chunkier than the old ones which I think will be a good thing.

IMG_20210304_165831.thumb.jpg.7d3f89e2c4cf32069d6bf7c1f874d6bc.jpg

Will have to wait for a test drive to be certain, but just sitting in the garage it feels better I think.

 

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in other news, came across a couple interesting things :) 

first of all one for @quicksilver its a Kit Bashed AC Acedes Model 57 :) 

https://amodelrailway.blogspot.com/2010_07_01_archive.html

unnamed.jpg.b99fee79bd0bb5ae97e2c63956147888.jpg

I love the attention to details especially with regards to the rear lights/indicator placement :) but its a shame they got the colour entirely wrong for a Model 57!

(but from what I can gather they where working off Black and white photos only)

 

and then I also found the source of the Crashed FOO179H Invacar Mk12 pictures :) 

https://www.bcthic.org/View_Archive?ODE3M3wxMjl8fHw=

goes to show that you dont instantly die a painful and agonising death if you get into an accident in an Invacar as most people would have you believe! (poor Invacar tho would have only been about year old!)

 

On 01/10/2021 at 19:58, LightBulbFun said:

I had not actually gotten round to posting it but @keef had made me aware of them last night :) 

heres some higher res versions :) I appreciate the heads up tho!

Poor Mk12, it held up surprisingly well given how flimsy/lightweight they are (granted I dont know what speed they where doing!)! I wonder who was at fault...

243962329_1455175774866132_2761645602504928871_n.thumb.jpeg.79f8b6f59e68afabf064d739ab20ec00.jpeg

243890195_1455175764866133_3680489957121266099_n.thumb.jpeg.dd31cd0ef4c1e5a3aa2c11f21277f57b.jpeg

 

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@LightBulbFun, Did you put the indicator stalk on the left of the handlebar, where @Zelandeth has it on TPA ? If you remember,  the stalk got in the way of the cable. Look at Zels pics, and fit the indicator stalk and twist grip like that, and it will be a straighter path to the bulhead. It should come into the cab through the same hole. @Mrs6C, I tried pulling the inner of the cable with mole grips, (see earlier post) and it did move., so I think the cable inner is free. I think the problem is all down to the path from the handle to the carb. Hoping to see some pics from @Zelandeth and @dollywobbler of their undersides.

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IBeen thinking about the cable problem. Would having the cable split into two help? I'm thinking a short cable from the twist grip to a slider fixed to the body, so that cable would act as it would on a motorcycle application ie. to the carburettor. The slider would pull the second cable to the carburettor from a fixed point, as it would in a rear engined car application. The slider would incorporate a return spring to help close the throttle and push the twist grip back. Though I suppose back in the day the original set up must have worked. Throttle control is crucial to centrifugal clutch operation and don't recall many incidents involving runaway Invacars. If anyone thinks the idea has legs, I could probably make something up. Will do a rough drawing later. 

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2 hours ago, Dobloseven said:

IBeen thinking about the cable problem. Would having the cable split into two help? I'm thinking a short cable from the twist grip to a slider fixed to the body, so that cable would act as it would on a motorcycle application ie. to the carburettor. The slider would pull the second cable to the carburettor from a fixed point, as it would in a rear engined car application. The slider would incorporate a return spring to help close the throttle and push the twist grip back. Though I suppose back in the day the original set up must have worked. Throttle control is crucial to centrifugal clutch operation and don't recall many incidents involving runaway Invacars. If anyone thinks the idea has legs, I could probably make something up. Will do a rough drawing later. 

Wot I'm finking. IMG_20211203_101654.thumb.jpg.bad0ad5448ae522a7bad4052564a5052.jpg

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Looks promising. It would have to be mounted somewhere where the weather cannot get at it, if  underneath in a sealed box. But I am sure there must be an answer, what do other Model 70s and other rear engined vehicles with hand controls do?? 

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2 hours ago, Dobloseven said:

IBeen thinking about the cable problem. Would having the cable split into two help? I'm thinking a short cable from the twist grip to a slider fixed to the body, so that cable would act as it would on a motorcycle application ie. to the carburettor. The slider would pull the second cable to the carburettor from a fixed point, as it would in a rear engined car application. The slider would incorporate a return spring to help close the throttle and push the twist grip back. Though I suppose back in the day the original set up must have worked. Throttle control is crucial to centrifugal clutch operation and don't recall many incidents involving runaway Invacars. If anyone thinks the idea has legs, I could probably make something up. Will do a rough drawing later. 

Wot I'm finking. IMG_20211203_101654.thumb.jpg.bad0ad5448ae522a7bad4052564a5052.jpg

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Yeah the problem is, the, Model 70's never had any sort of split throttle cable, it was just 1 long bowden cable running from the Twist grip (on the handle bar or Tiller bar depending on exact machine configuration) 

so these potential fixes feel like treating the symptom rather then the cause if you follow, id like to get to the bottom of whats going on exactly!

although I still have the problem if the throttle cable is required to be removed from the car and or replaced, im not sure how im going to go about that, I need the Gravity gun from Half Life 2 to lift her up in the air so I can get underneath and see just what exactly is going on!

 

I appreciate the thoughts however :) 

 

for those curious here is how it goes on a Tiller machine,

57538070_2404273622939467_6824781442266955776_n.jpg

one I have noticed on most other handle bar and Tiller Model 70's which you can see well in the picture above is the throttle cable is always nice straight, almost like its being held under slight tension?, now i know the outer cable on the carb end is held in with a threaded section on the engine and a locknut which lets you adjust it

but on the twist grip end theres nothing to hold it in place (I can pull on the outer cable and pull it out of the twist grip which surely cant be right?) I wonder if im missing some sort of locking/tensioning device at the twist grip end/on the twist grip itself?

I also dont think there should be so much throttle cable slack floppy about in REV's cabin

I think as you turn the handle bar/tiller the throttle cable is supposed to move in and out of the little hole in the bulkhead that it goes through, unlike on my car where there is a dangly bit of slack which does the same Job

but when we set it up at the FoD so it moves in and out of the hole on the bulkhead, it would Jam on

it seems if you move/disturb the Throttle cable outer it jams on basically, which is why it was fine for me, until I went to drive off after completely my reversing part of the parking space manoeuvre (since turning the handle bars moves the throttle cable of course)

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