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LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, Brian braves the byways!


LightBulbFun

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Just now, LightBulbFun said:

poor @egg is probably having bad flashbacks right about now! 

 

glad they have found it, now lets hope there is a nice juicy archived record RDE346 for them to unearth and reinstate :) 

Unfortunately no… they tell me a “letter is in the post” to say I need to submit a V765…. I’m ahead of the game and Simon is sending it all off tomorrow with his signed approval

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1 minute ago, brummiejon said:

Unfortunately no… they tell me a “letter is in the post” to say I need to submit a V765…. I’m ahead of the game and Simon is sending it all off tomorrow with his signed approval

ahh thats a shame, but not all together unsurprising! as who knows when RDE346 was last taxed/on the road before now! 

very glad to hear you have managed to work with Simon and get a V765 on the go! 

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12 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

ahh thats a shame, but not all together unsurprising! as who knows when RDE346 was last taxed/on the road before now! 

very glad to hear you have managed to work with Simon and get a V765 on the go! 

Simon wants me to do a zoom interview next week to record part of RDE 346s social history… I’ll have a video of me using it on the ICR website before long…..

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Just now, brummiejon said:

Simon wants me to do a zoom interview next week to record part of RDE 346s social history… I’ll have a video of me using it on the ICR website before long…..

Oh cool! not many videos of Argsons in action so will be great to see! , tho I wonder if the zoom interview will ever see the light of day! 

I know Simon did one with @dollywobbler but I dont think it ever properly got published for whatever reason LOL https://www.invalidcarriageregister.org/icr-tv

 

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52 minutes ago, brummiejon said:

I made a formal complaint and lo and behold they miraculously found it…

sadly we live in a world where either due to lack of resources, incompetence or bloody mindedness a complaint is often the only route to resolution (with any large organisation, public or private)

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28 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

I know Simon did one with @dollywobbler but I dont think it ever properly got published for whatever reason LOL https://www.invalidcarriageregister.org/icr-tv

That's a shame, I wonder if Ian could ask for the 'rushes' so it could be published on Hubnotes?

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One little thing that slightly niggled me during Brian’s recent trial outings was that the clutch bite didn’t feel positive enough to me, with some slip before the plates gained their purchase on one another. I decided to remove the primary drive casing and investigate. All looks good at first inspection as I recall it being when I previously reassembled it after having selected the best components from the three engines, these were all thoroughly cleaned and dressed accordingly to ensure best performance. However upon second inspection of the two springs I have found that the inner of the two has perhaps expanded its outer diameter over the years and is slightly binding on the inner diameter of the outer springs coils, I’m fairly confident that this should not be the case. Also after speaking with Steve Gollings the Villiers expert it seems the plates I have are not the best pairing for the intermediate plates I have. The intermediates I have are slotted and this is correct for 11e specs for InvaCar  use according to Steve, the slotted intermediates are to be used in conjunction with Capasco type plates whereas I’m running Surflex plates. Hopefully before the end of the week I’ll have Capascos fitted along with new springs and should gain a much more positive clutch.

2CDDC3BF-2C63-460F-BDA0-58CB59B4E98A.jpeg

523B9F68-36AE-4AFD-9BFD-4FF9B03EB8C4.jpeg

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On 30/04/2021 at 20:49, LightBulbFun said:

another thing I noticed is something is weird about the tax disk, it does not look like a regular tax disk

image.thumb.png.9c0945ff783c033366f6ba5e87a448da.png

is it some sort of Temporary export thing I wonder? or some sort of vehicle under test/trade plate thing?

(of note there are no GB stickers, which I would expect if it was driven Overland...)

so this is interesting! while sluething up some more details on a picture in the lads and lasses thread, for @Yoss I zoomed into the tax disc of the RT Bus in the photo to see if I could make out an expirary date, to try and date the photo, and while I could not make out a date I could not help but notice that the 2nd Disc bellow looks a lot like the weird "tax" disc that is on BPE19H above

image.png.ca96ccaf45def2735ac274e94e23c54d.png

 

I am curious if @Yoss or @busmansholiday or @Inspector Morose if any of yall have any more details on what this disc on the RT is at least? I always just assumed that the 2nd discs where some sort of PSV operator/licence disc, but why would a Model 70 have something that looks very similar attached to it?  (I mean passenger carrying is literally forbidden on a Ministry Model 70 at least LOL) thus I am now curious to know a bit more about em if anyone knows? :) 

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4 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

so this is interesting! while sluething up some more details on a picture in the lads and lasses thread, for @Yoss I zoomed into the tax disc of the RT Bus in the photo to see if I could make out an expirary date, to try and date the photo, and while I could not make out a date I could not help but notice that the 2nd Disc bellow looks a lot like the weird "tax" disc that is on BPE19H above

image.png.ca96ccaf45def2735ac274e94e23c54d.png

 

I am curious if @Yoss or @busmansholiday or @Inspector Morose if any of yall have any more details on what this disc on the RT is at least? I always just assumed that the 2nd discs where some sort of PSV operator/licence disc, but why would a Model 70 have something that looks very similar attached to it?  (I mean passenger carrying is literally forbidden on a Ministry Model 70 at least LOL) thus I am now curious to know a bit more about em if anyone knows? :) 

Yes, it's an operators licence or O disc. Every bus has to carry one. With smaller companies I think they had to prove they were competent to have however many they wanted and would have regular inspections and could lose some if it was considered that they were overstretching themselves.

I expect London Transport just printed their own. I'm joking obviously, that's a nod towards their overhaul system which was basically a massive ringing operation and the fact they were still using black number plates until 1983. But you know all that. 

I realise that doesn't help you with the Invacar one, but must be some sort of local licensing thing, or even a parking permit. 

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8 hours ago, Yoss said:

Yes, it's an operators licence or O disc. Every bus has to carry one. With smaller companies I think they had to prove they were competent to have however many they wanted and would have regular inspections and could lose some if it was considered that they were overstretching themselves.

I expect London Transport just printed their own. I'm joking obviously, that's a nod towards their overhaul system which was basically a massive ringing operation and the fact they were still using black number plates until 1983. But you know all that. 

I realise that doesn't help you with the Invacar one, but must be some sort of local licensing thing, or even a parking permit. 

interesting! I wonder if anyone has a close up picture of one of these?

the reason it caught my eye is it does look very similar both disks to look to have right at the top:

 

small bit of writing *something that looks a bit like a crown* another small bit of writing

then a couple spaced out lines bellow a large body of text

 

 

I dont think on BPE19H it would be a parking permit! to give it more context it is AC Model 70 Prototype number 9, and its a zoomed in part of this picture

Bild_014_AC-Car.jpg

and this is from when it visited the Steyr puch works in Austria, so Steyr puch could validate that they where happy with how their engine would perform in the Model 70 setup

(Steyr puch was known for always requesting a "sample" for them to test with themselves before they would commit to supplying engines, and this is why the Opperman Sterling is left hand drive! bonus little fact there!)

 

it is worth noting that this strange disc is the only disc on the car there is no usual tax disc or such, despite the vehicle clearly being registered, on British plates etc, it seems this strange disc is some sort of substitution for a tax disc but I have not been able to find anything about what it might be!

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The strange disc - when the current Mrs MartC was an on call midwife in the early nineties she had the use of an NHS pool car - a solid blue Metro City - which didn't have a tax disc, but instead a same sized disc stating that the car was, I paraphrase here, the property of Her Majesties Government and was being used on Government business.

Could the Invacar disc be along these lines, looks like there may be a crown at the very top of it?

Something like this -

image.png.227a88ab5a69f5baccfc7f83554ef396.png

 

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2 hours ago, martc said:

The strange disc - when the current Mrs MartC was an on call midwife in the early nineties she had the use of an NHS pool car - a solid blue Metro City - which didn't have a tax disc, but instead a same sized disc stating that the car was, I paraphrase here, the property of Her Majesties Government and was being used on Government business.

Could the Invacar disc be along these lines, looks like there may be a crown at the very top of it?

Something like this -

image.png.227a88ab5a69f5baccfc7f83554ef396.png

 

indeed a few people I have spoken to have floated those as what it was possibility, but I have not found one that matches with the one on the Model 70, which seems to have writing/lines right next to/either side of the the crown, where as what you show has lines all below the crown

still it could be the Model 70 has an older version of a different design somewhat, do you know of any examples from roughly 1970? that is when the photo was taken

the question of course is then, if it is one of these Exempt vehicle discs, then I have to wonder what does it say on it exactly, as in who is this Model 70 being operated/exempted by etc! keep in mind that this is Prototype 9, its NOT a Ministry user trial car, so its much more of an AC concern then it would of been a Ministry concern, so I would expect to see the vehicle on trade plates or such, rather then exempted by the Ministry or such, although it is possible the Ministry was still happy to work/do things for AC, given how much the Model 70 was the Ministries own doing as it was AC's, but its still strange because the Model 70 would of just gone into the Disabled Driver taxation class, a £NIL rate tax disc anyhow 

1 hour ago, Yoss said:

Good pictures of them seem very thin on the ground, this was the best I could find from the late 90s. 

3987953806_e1c871dbd6_b.thumb.jpg.f70be3ebf9b29defd8a62481526a84ec.jpg

 

interesting! yeah thats what I found as well, I tried to see if I could find any pictures and I just found what you found and it clearly does not mach! I Was quite surprised at the lack of photos given most things in the Bus world tend to be pretty well documented 

if theres a bus that existed at one point in time, theres a good chance someone somewhere will have a Photograph of it, unless its MHJ54P of course....

 

it would be interesting to know if anyone does have a picture of an older late 60's early 70's operators disc?

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It's quite possible that the mystery disk in the RT is a certificate of insurance. Larger bus companies used to insure themselves and used a disk like this to show that the vehicle in question is in fact insured for use on the road. If you look at a number of preserved buses, you'd see that there was three disk holders, one for tax, one for operators licence and a third for insurance 'certificate'.

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13 minutes ago, Inspector Morose said:

It's quite possible that the mystery disk in the RT is a certificate of insurance. Larger bus companies used to insure themselves and used a disk like this to show that the vehicle in question is in fact insured for use on the road. If you look at a number of preserved buses, you'd see that there was three disk holders, one for tax, one for operators licence and a third for insurance 'certificate'.

interesting! I was just looking at Yoss's photo and noticing there was a 3rd holder and also stirred  up general memories of there always being 3 holders and I was wondering what the 3rd disc holder was for! 

 

I wonder if then thats whats on the Model 70 then? some sort of proof of insurance? again if anyone has any pictures of any of these discs from 1970 or so would be interesting to see them and see how they compare! 

 

there are some that say that it was driven overland to Austria as part of the whole validation process, so it would make sense they would want to have some sort of proof that yes everything is as it should be, as they drove through Europe, but I have never been able to confirm if it was actually driven overland or not!

*insert picture here of Model 70 at vMax flashing Audi's out of the way on the german autobahn*

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39 minutes ago, Inspector Morose said:

It's quite possible that the mystery disk in the RT is a certificate of insurance. Larger bus companies used to insure themselves and used a disk like this to show that the vehicle in question is in fact insured for use on the road. If you look at a number of preserved buses, you'd see that there was three disk holders, one for tax, one for operators licence and a third for insurance 'certificate'.

Ah, so that's what the third disc is for. As you can see the RT above only had two discs as did my RMs so London obviously decided that wasn't necessary. 

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14 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

still it could be the Model 70 has an older version of a different design somewhat, do you know of any examples from roughly 1970? that is when the photo was taken

the question of course is then, if it is one of these Exempt vehicle discs, then I have to wonder what does it say on it exactly, as in who is this Model 70 being operated/exempted by etc! keep in mind that this is Prototype 9, its NOT a Ministry user trial car, so its much more of an AC concern then it would of been a Ministry concern, so I would expect to see the vehicle on trade plates or such, rather then exempted by the Ministry or such, although it is possible the Ministry was still happy to work/do things for AC, given how much the Model 70 was the Ministries own doing as it was AC's, but its still strange because the Model 70 would of just gone into the Disabled Driver taxation class, a £NIL rate tax disc anyhow 

Sorry no pictures from the '70's; it was difficult enough to find the one I used as an example, being for a B reg carI guess my example could have been from the '80's. I wish I could remember the details of the current Mrs's disc, but I think it was hand written as per the picture. The example I showed has an 'old' look about its design, it doesn't look like it was designed in the '80's, and I would hazard a guess that a '70's one would look the same. It could be possible for the handwritten details to be typed in.

Is it possible that prototype 9 was actually owned by the Ministry as, for example, a  test mule or demonstrator? May be they bought it from AC and being a prototype it may not have been suitable to pass onto the public but could find use within the Ministry? If it was owned by the Ministry and used only on Ministry business then it would be an Exempt Vehicle and would therefore display the exempt disc.

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5 hours ago, martc said:

Sorry no pictures from the '70's; it was difficult enough to find the one I used as an example, being for a B reg carI guess my example could have been from the '80's. I wish I could remember the details of the current Mrs's disc, but I think it was hand written as per the picture. The example I showed has an 'old' look about its design, it doesn't look like it was designed in the '80's, and I would hazard a guess that a '70's one would look the same. It could be possible for the handwritten details to be typed in.

Is it possible that prototype 9 was actually owned by the Ministry as, for example, a  test mule or demonstrator? May be they bought it from AC and being a prototype it may not have been suitable to pass onto the public but could find use within the Ministry? If it was owned by the Ministry and used only on Ministry business then it would be an Exempt Vehicle and would therefore display the exempt disc.

Yeah sadly trying to find pictures/examples of ephemera like this is easier said then done!

 

well this is where things get interesting because, after Prototype 9 and 10, came Prototypes 11 through to Prototype 20 (BPE21H-BPE40H)

now AC considered these user trial cars, Prototype cars, complete with Prototype chassis numbers, but the Ministry just considered them an early batch of Model 70's, they where fully contracted up (Contract HAD 632/268) and built to Spec No TSS/V/110049 (June-September 1969 Pre Production specifications for an Automatic Invalid Tricycle)

which is I suspect the spec that Prototype 9 will have been built to

and these 20 Model 70's where just considered part of the fleet in the end, in the same way that Prototype Routemaster 4, CRL4, and the 24 Prototype lengthened RM's, ER/RML880-903 where just considered another of the fleet once main production of their respective Routemaster types got under way

Production Model 70's are all built under Spec No TSS/V/110054 (Production specifications for an Automatic Invalid Tricycle Jan 1970)

but the inclusion of these Prototype 20, is why the figure for Production Model 70's is 18130 because if you add the 20 user trial cars you get 18150 :) and indeed 1 User trial car even managed to make it to the end of days in 2003!

 

so I I dont think the Ministry would have any problems punting Prototype 9 out to the public if they had it etc, I mean they punted out the very first Prototype Model 69E, 833BRW (and subsequent prototypes)  to the public after it had done its job! 

(but I see no evidance of any of the pre-user trial Model 70 prototype cars seeing Ministry service, all that is mentioned in period is explicitly the 20 user trial cars, AFAIK the earlier Prototypes remained an AC concern) 

 

but the thing is most of what I have said is a bit irrelevant (story of my life!) because the photos where taken in 1970 at the Steyr puch works again to validate things, so this was right as the car was fresh etc, so its not  simply just in a role it ended up in after AC where done with it or such, these photos where taken as the car was being actively tested and developed by AC 

but as mentioned the Ministry was much more involved with the Model 70 development than any other previous type, so again I do if the Ministry just took it under its wing so to speak to help AC get things done

 

1 hour ago, egg said:

Maybe transported by train? Just a thought.

indeed @Mrs6C mentioned when I first posted about it thats how it likely would of gotten there :)  

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