invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[egg]

11 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

perhaps you might be able to make contact with the poster and see if its still around?

Thanks for the link, message sent to the poster.

[LightBulbFun]

 

im pretty sure the far right car is WHK372L the  body/wing damage looks pretty damn near identical (right down to them both missing a door on the same side)

which means the first picture must be the same location that TWC and TPA came from  so I really do wonder where the above picture is from, did someone visit the place long before it was discovered on ebay in 2017?

I have noticed the same Model 70's in several different locations in that same field

so it seems they had been shunted around the place for some reason, which might explain some of the body damage they sadly have

[LightBulbFun]

for @egg I got a chance to speak to stuart today

and as I had recommend, he also recommends Tippers plates for your Mk12  

 

https://www.tippersvintageplates.co.uk/phdi/p1.nsf/supppages/tippers?opendocument&part=2

I also asked Stuart if he knew about the Mk12 in the football musume up in scotland here https://footballandmaterialculture.com/2013/07/23/the-national-scottish-football-museum/ and he says that one is GVW600H (which happily shows up on the DVLA still ) 

 

I also showed this picture to Stuart which is an Argson on 12 inch steel wheels!

and stuart said that indeed, the last of the Argsons in service where converted to 12 inch wheels as by the late 1970s it was getting hard to get ahold of 19 inch tyres (and I also imagine there was an element of reducing parts holdings)

its weird seeing what I call an open frame invalid carriage not on wire wheels

stuart then also sent a link to this https://www.coys.co.uk/cars/1953-stanley-argson-44-mobility-vehicle

which is was the last Argson in service, in use until the 31st of March 2003  (untaxed since 1981, as that's when it fell off the radar, as the user, just used it on her property, never actually taking it on the road)

sadly what happened to it after the auction is unknown

 

and for @Conan I was wondering if you could visit the Jesada Car Museum and have a look around for me?

Stuart says that a Number of invalid vehicles where bought by them (an AC Acedes Mk15,DPD778J, a private Metal AC Acedes 594BGN, and a Mk12c whos reg I dont know)

however in all the photos I have seen of the museum I have only seen MVW446P, Stuarts First Model 70, that they have, I have not seen any of the other Invalid vehicles in their collection

so if you could go there and have a nose around for me it would be very much appreciated especially if you can grab some detailed photos of all their invalid vehicles (like of VIN plates n such like)

[egg]

Thanks for following that up. I think they are £40 a pair, so better get saving :-)!

[Conan]

35 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

and for @Conan I was wondering if you could visit the Jesada Car Museum and have a look around for me?

Stuart says that a Number of invalid vehicles where bought by them (an AC Acedes Mk15,DPD778J, a private Metal AC Acedes 594BGN, and a Mk12c whos reg I dont know)

however in all the photos I have seen of the museum I have only seen MVW446P, Stuarts First Model 70, that they have, I have not seen any of the other Invalid vehicles in their collection

so if you could go there and have a nose around for me it would be very much appreciated especially if you can grab some detailed photos of all their invalid vehicles (like of VIN plates n such like)

 

I don't think I can get the VIN plates. But I certainly can get most detailed pictures as soon as I've got a day to spare. I've been thinking about making another visit for quite a while now anyway. The exhibit have been rotated though so there might not be all of them on display. I'll try to get as much as I can!

[LightBulbFun]

8 minutes ago, egg said:

Thanks for following that up. I think they are £40 a pair, so better get saving :-)!

Aye stuart mentioned that they are about £45 a set, but that you get what you pay for  

and given the rate the DVLA moves at im sure you will have plenty of time to save up enough money for a set of plates for when the V5 shows up

speaking of Reg plates and V5s, hows the V62 for Dolly's V5 going @Mrs6C ?  

[LightBulbFun]

Just now, Conan said:

 

I don't think I can get the VIN plates. But I certainly can get most detailed pictures as soon as I've got a day to spare. I've been thinking about making another visit for quite a while now anyway. The exhibit have been rotated though so there might not be all of them on display. I'll try to get as much as I can!

Oh Awesome

vin plates are easy to find as they are right inside the cabin by the driver so you should be able to see them and grab a photo pretty easily, esp if you bring a camera with zoom functionality  

if you bring along an FS880 key then you can unlock any that are locked too

heres the VIN plate location for an AC Acedes Mk15 (Model 67)

 

the Metal AC Acedes might be tricker as its VIN plate is in the engine bay, but then again if you bring an FS880 key along you should be able to unlock everything  (But I dont think you can even lock the engine cover of a Metal acedes so just unlatch it and it should open up)

 

and on the Invacar Mk12 its by the Driver seat like the AC Acedes Mk15 (Model 67) (see the black plaque by the grey drivers seat near the door)

 

 

even if you cant grab VIN plate pictures

just general detailed shots would be much appreciated

[Faker]

I'll get over to the fellas house over the next few days and get some pics. It's definitely in private hands. V5 etc and registered to him.

[Conan]

The cars are already unlocked, it's just that if I try to open them they'll throw me out of the place. ? Those with vin on the inside will be okay though I think.

[LightBulbFun]

7 hours ago, Faker said:

I'll get over to the fellas house over the next few days and get some pics. It's definitely in private hands. V5 etc and registered to him.

Awesome many thanks!

although the V5 being in his name does not necessarily mean it was a private example sadly

when the Invalid vehicle service dissolved/disbanded in 2004, all surviving Invalid vehicles that managed to escape destruction etc just sort of became public domain more or less, so at that point if you had a DHSS Invalid vehicle somehow still, you could apply for the V5 etc without the worry of the DHSS chasing you down and taking the vehicle off you

its also worth noting that in england at least, if an invalid vehicle was issued to someone for the long term, then the V5 would be put in their name, but they obviously did not own the vehicle, they were just the registered keeper

if a vehicle was on short term loan then it would of been registered to the local artificial limb place

which makes @dollywobbler V5 of TWC with the Previous owner of just "DHSS" all the more curious, and im very curious to know if it lists an address along side "DHSS"

(keep in mind REV aside, every Invalid vehicle on autoshite was once a MoH/DHSS Car)

[LightBulbFun]

2 hours ago, Conan said:

The cars are already unlocked, it's just that if I try to open them they'll throw me out of the place. ? Those with vin on the inside will be okay though I think.

bring yourself a Jerry can with fuel and with an FS880 key and you can just fuel up the Model 70 and just drive out of there! LOL

but on a more serious note, many thanks  if the vehicles are not on display, do you think you might be able to ask the curator for details? like if they even have the other invalid vehicles I mentioned 

(as mentioned I know they have MVW446P the Model 70, but I have never seen the other invalid vehicles they supposedly own, so im curious if they even have them in the first place or it was just miscommunication somewhere)

[Conan]

I'll try to get to the curator, the hope isn't high though as I don't think the place actually have a proper one.

 

In the meantime, have this picture I discovered from 2013.

 

[LightBulbFun]

12 minutes ago, Conan said:

I'll try to get to the curator, the hope isn't high though as I don't think the place actually have a proper one.

 

In the meantime, have this picture I discovered from 2013.

 

well whoever is responsible for rotating the cars around then  , (thats a question where do they put the cars they dont have on display? ) 

 

nice picture of MVWs rear, im pretty sure the museum did repaint it, as it looks quite shiny, and I see overspray on the exhaust, they did a pretty good job on matching the paint colour 

if you dont know, that Model 70 was the first Model 70 Stuart cyphus owned

pointy rear mould lines, but thats to be expected as its a post Factory Fire Invacar Model 70

im still waiting to see a couple more pictures of a Pre Sept 1975 Invacar Model 70, to see if it has AC style rounded mould lines or if it also has pointy mould lines

(I do know the Mk12's have pointy mould lines so that might be a clue)

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, egg said:

One of the 8mph road legal types.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/921988228158794/

But you must have restricted mobility to do that, AFAIK!

 

dragging this over here as its a good excuse to post about it

since I noticed Fraser was the one selling it, and I saw he had a V5, I asked for a picture of the V5

because im very curious as to how the V5 of a road registered mobility scooter compares to a Model 70 etc

esp since I know the body types on both are "invalid vehicle"

and well heres the V5 for the above Mobility scooter (iv just shown the 1 side as thats where the important info is at, the other side just has VIN numbers etc)

and its quite interesting to see, its quite similar to what the Model 70 has

except that the Model 70 has no Type approval "number"

for reference heres the V5 for REV

 

its also worth noting that despite that mobility scooter being part of the disabled tax class, fraser was able to tax it online IIRC

I always thought that you had to present some sort of proof of your disability when taxing a car as disabled?

unless "invalid vehicle" Vehicles have some sort of exemption to that?

also worth noting that the mobility scooter has the revenue weight listed as 150Kg which you would expect, with it being a class 3 invalid carriage

[busmansholiday]

Are you seriously telling me that's diesel powered ?

 

[LightBulbFun]

6 minutes ago, busmansholiday said:

Are you seriously telling me that's diesel powered ?

 

should I ask fraser if it "runs on veg m8? lucus or bosch pump m8?"

on a more serious note I think so, I know he wanted to drop a bigger engine in it to make it go faster...

edit: the advert says petrol, but the V5 says heavy oil (Diesel)

alright im asking fraser for real LOL

[LightBulbFun]

18 minutes ago, busmansholiday said:

Are you seriously telling me that's diesel powered ?

 

 

alright fraser got back to me and sadly?

its "only" a Petrol powered Mobility scooter LOL

and that someone got it wrong at the time of registration or thats what fraser says

Id not be surprised the DVLA fucked it up LOL

[busmansholiday]

Surprised it doesn't say what engine size it is on the log book.

Tell Fraser to send it back, get it changed and put down as 1340cc (so he can 'drop' a Hayabusa engine in......

[Faker]

This was covered in the past with this ac. There's documentation of some sort with it. I'll chase it up...

[LightBulbFun]

20 hours ago, Faker said:

This was covered in the past with this ac. There's documentation of some sort with it. I'll chase it up...

I look forward to seeing what you can dig up  

 

happy to report that when checking flicker for any new Invacar related Photos I saw some new pictures have indeed been uploaded, of MHJ107P, I had been tipped off this one was survivor but I had no pictures of it, so im happy to have a picture finally  (and happy to see that MHJ107P is intact if not fairly dirty!)

 

https://flic.kr/p/2h6bSeZ

untaxed since 1997 so not on the road sadly, I also sadly don't know who owns it etc,

[LightBulbFun]

side thingy, is anyone interested in a Skoda Fabia? not mine, but just throwing it on here for a good friend of mine, who hates invacars so you know its coming from a person you can find common ground with!

tis a 2005 Skoda Fabia vRS. 43000 miles, 9 months MOT. EU3 engine, so no DPF.

Downside - bit scruffy in places. Rear bumper, and a air rifle ding in one door. Couple of tyres are getting old.
Upside - garaged, no a spec of rot. Low mileage, one owner. Fresh belt and water pump which is a £250 job done cheaply. 60mpg, plus PD grin factor.

(I totally didn't just copy and paste that from what my friend sent me...)

he wants about £1500 (but open to offers) for it which I understand is a bit rich here when the ASP of a car is about £250 here, but I figured its worth a punt 

PM if your genuinely interested and I can give him your details etc  

[LightBulbFun]

more potential early Model 70 news  I just discovered the GPE-J block which comes after the GPD-J block I recently discovered but before the GPG-K block

 

 

as mentioned before Im quite eager to find out if these J reg blocks I have discovered are very late villiers machines or very early Model 70 blocks

its worth noting that it looks like the GPE-J block spans from GPE120J to GPE159J making it 40 cars big, just like the GPD-J block is

ill quickly rush a couple regs from this block over to my HPI guy and hopefully I can get them run with the other blocks I recently discovered

(currently going through the block as I type this to hopefully find one that will mention engine size or something as that will be a big clue)

 

heres a recap on things, 

its said that the Model 70 showed up in June 1971, however the K Reg suffix only came into effect from the 1st of august 1971, so I wonder if the very earliest Model 70's are on J regs

now currently the earliest AC Model 70 block we know of is the GPG-K block, which starts from the 100th car of the Z chassis block

telling us that there are at least 100 cars before the GPG-K block

so I have been searching the Gxx-J regs for potential AC Model 70 blocks and so far I have found 2 potentially which is very exciting 

 

(as a side note I have also been searching for the end of Model 70 production I know there are about 48 cars after the VPG-S block which is the last AC Model 70 block we have documented, so I have search through the rest of Vxx-S and am currently searching through Wxx-S but have not currently found anything)

[LightBulbFun]

came across one thats down as 700cc! could well be a Model 70 then, as I have come across other early Model 70's with similar erroneous engine sizes on the DVLA, then again it could easily be a villiers machine with DVLA shenanigans applied to it

 

 

the latest survivor out of the block was GPE158J which has tax due as 1st april 1995

[LightBulbFun]

Had a pleasant surprise delivery today  im not sure who sent it to me etc, but whoever did, thank you very much! its been a very interesting read  and im happy to have a drivers handbook to go along with my Model 70  

 

there's several very interesting things in this handbook but one ill point out now is how the lube chart, is literally a copy of whats on the Plaque inside the car, complete with "Engine number" and "Chassis Number" locations that are left blank in this case

I wonder if the end user was meant to write in the spaces what the engine number and chassis number of their Model 70 was in those blank spaces?

 

because on the previous page theres a location to write down what Key you had

 

theres also an interesting "Edit" of sorts to do with adjusting the handlebars

I wonder what it says underneath it?

 

edit:

sadly I noticed Page 7-8-9 and 10 is missing from my book

 

[LightBulbFun]

so this is very very exciting!

I just had the results from my HPI Guy

and indeed it looks like the VERY first Model 70's where on a J plate!

potentially even a H plate!

I had BPE22H BPE29H, GPD790J and GPD819J run (I also asked for PPU522K to be run, but I think a typo has been made there as he said "PPU552K" does not exist so im still waiting on the results for that one)

both GPD-J cars are model 70's for sure as they have Model 70 chassis numbers, they are part of the same "Z" chassis block that GPG721K etc is part of

so as I thought, the very first Model 70's where indeed on a J plate

and BPE-H are part of the "P" chassis block, which is a new chassis block to us, which I think might be the Prototypes! (as mentioned earlier we know that BPE35H is a Model 70 for sure as we have a picture of that one)

the really fun thing is, BPE29H made it until June 9th 2003! to think a Prototype Model 70 potentially survived until the very end!

I really do hope that that one survives somewhere hidden away

(the GPE-J regs have not been run yet, but seeing how the GPD-J block is Model 70's then the GPE-J block is also likely to be Model 70's as it comes after GPD-J)

I have forwarded this info to Stuart, I know he has been looking forward to it as much as I have been 

[dollywobbler]

Returning to the one in Nigel Wild's church, I had a chat with him in Coventry at the Citroen do about them. He used to break them, lots of them, when the scheme ended but managed to save one or two. You could apparently apply to save one, but very much on the understanding they were not to be used. He is a VERY chatty man, so I'm reluctant to ask for more info...

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, dollywobbler said:

Returning to the one in Nigel Wild's church, I had a chat with him in Coventry at the Citroen do about them. He used to break them, lots of them, when the scheme ended but managed to save one or two. You could apparently apply to save one, but very much on the understanding they were not to be used. He is a VERY chatty man, so I'm reluctant to ask for more info...

very cool  indeed towards the end thanks to some work by the ICR (aka Stuart) if you were a museum or such you could ask to save an invalid vehicle,  (around about this time the main central invalid vehicle stores, Heywood was getting rid of its Model 57's which is why you see "quite a few" (relatively speaking!) Model 57 AC Acedes in museums these days) but you where contracted that it must never return to the road, however that contract became null/void once the invalid vehicle service was disbanded etc

but I have never heard of a private individual managing to save one officially with the DHSSs blessing

do you have any contact details I could contact him on? 

id love to know which ones he saved so I can add them to my survivors list and im also curious as to why he chose to save the ones he did specifically, I know for example @Mrs6C  Model 70 was chosen by John when he was saving one because it had the most car like control scheme with its steering wheel, and he wanted something that was vaguely like a normal car for his son to drive around the paddock in

 

(BTW I see you made your 29 thousandth! post recently congrats!)

 

side edit I noticed 594BGN turns 58 today as it was registered on the 4th of september 1961, its the oldest known surviving Metal AC Acedes

 

[LightBulbFun]

just spoke to stuart "a bit"  

and indeed he agrees with my findings,

and he notes that there where supposed to be 20 Prototype Model 70's for user trials of sorts before the Model 70 entered production, and we think these BPE-H Model 70's where these 20 User trial cars

(it was not actually known if those 20 user trial cars actually entered use, but it defo looks like now, with one even making it until the very end of the Model 70 in 2003! thats what I  call a successful trial!   I do wonder what happened after the trial, if the current users at the time where just allowed to keep using them, or if they were taken back and then just re-issued as regular Model 70's as the production of Model 70's started)

(this reminds me of a lot of how Routemasters where developed and prototyped and then entered service etc )

and that my findings also help explain as to why the Prototype Model 70s  where called "P5" "P6" etc we suspect now that they were just referring to them by their chassis numbers

sadly it not solidly known exactly when the Model 70 actually entered service and it was something stuart has been calculating over the years as new info came to light but it defo looks like July/August 1971 is when things started to happen enmass, with Invacar coming online in November 1971 with the PPU-K block (but still waiting to have that a couple regs from that block run so I can verify that it)

Stuart said to me "soooo, you reckon we might have cracked it with the ac's? the P block are the prototypes & user trial cas & Z is the first proper production cars"

which ill admit was a bit of a moment for me (in a good way) somewhat  he was checking with me!, pretty much up until that point it had been me checking my findings with him not the other way round  

(I imagine Stuart is looking to get this properly down pat so the big book he is writing is as accurate as he can get it)

and indeed on the production side of things it looks like the GPD-J block does look to be the start of the Production Model 70's (or very close to it, I think there are 10 Production Model 70's before the GPD-J block but going up in 10s would take an age and could easily just no longer be on the DVLA sadly)

given how fragmented the start of the Z block is we think that's when production started I imagine it was fragmented in short blocks of 10 then 30 then 40 regs (assuming GPE-J is also a block of Model 70's) because AC was just starting to ramp up production so was not yet at full speed, but , however its worth nothing the start of the Z block happens right at a Suffix change which always messes up the reg blocks slightly, so that throws another variable in the mix, for example the last N Reg AC Model 70 block is only 45 cars big

(I do wonder if there are any other prototype Model 70s between the BPE-H cars from July 1970 and the Start of Model 70 production in July 1971 with the GPD-J)

 

Stuart also has a Harding that he has been trying to date more precisely to figure out the history of the harding invalid carriage better, and im making good progress on dating the lightbulb that was installed in its head lamp in hopes that it will give us a better idea as to when the harding was made  

stuart said sadly the markings on the bulb where completely gone, but I told stuart how you can pop the bulb in the fridge/freezer and then breath on it and it can outline the etch, and much to his surprise its working  we have not yet found a date code but I have IDed it as a Type 171 36W head lamp bulb, I am hopeful we will find a date code however 

(he is trying to figure out if said harding was a case of late registration madness like a car sitting on a dealer forecourt for a few years, or if it was actually made roughly when it was registered)

I also noticed on said harding an old BS1363 Plug socket and when trying to date that more precisely to try and give us a lead on things, I came across some posts by @Zelandeth on another forum he is on, which was a fun "hah small world" moment

 

circling back round to Model 70's its a shame none of the H Reg Model 70's are known to survive because it would be quite amusing to park a H Reg Model 70 next to a J Reg Metal AC Acedes parked with a K reg Invacar Mk12 parked next to it and finally a P reg Tippen delta parked next to that

that would really mess with someone's head

 

so yeah all in all it looks like I have made some really good discoveries recently that help explain the start of the Model 70 quite nicely and im very happy/pleased with myself about that as the start of Model 70 production has been one of those mysteries I have wanted to find out the truth about for a long while now  (and more recently its nice to see my hunch that the very first production Model 70's where indeed on a J reg was true )

(its also fun watching how mysteries/unknowns etc falls into place when you make new discoveries like those 20 Trial cars)

I also found out who sent me the handbook as I suspected it was stuart that sent me the Drivers handbook for the Model 70  he said he came across it during a house clearance for someone who ran an approved repairer, and that it actually fell out a set of draws that where on their way to the burn pile, so close shave there! (he sadly did not realise that pages 7 through 10 where missing) but im still very thankful to him for sending me the book

[st185cs]

16 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

sadly I noticed Page 7-8-9 and 10 is missing from my book

 

[LightBulbFun]

6 hours ago, st185cs said:

 

very interesting, thank you for posting that  

I have seen the handle bar control layout photo in the workshop manual for the Model 70 three wheeler, but I have not seen that specific steering wheel picture before  (and its interesting they do make mention of a steering ball, although surprisingly I don't think I have seen a single Model 70 fitted with one!)

I noticed there's nothing on the single handed tiller control scheme, I do know that the drivers handbook dates from the second half of 1970 before the Model 70 entered production

and stuart did mention the late prototypes where just testing/changing minor things like fine adjustment of how the controls work etc, (Ill have to check with him tho if thats something he just has put together from various bits of info he has gathered together over time or if that is a solid known fact )

so I do wonder if when that user handbook was written, if the Tiller control option was just not an option/thing at that point in time? ie was it still in development, or was it not initially planned, but only added towards the start of production?

say if someone in the User trials complained "id like a 1 handed control layout please!" so they only added it later on?

 

as a side note its interesting to note that the drivers handbook specifically says "the blue colour is impregnated into the material"