invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, Mr Pastry said:

Thank you for that, it's good to know that much.  Sadly I don't know the chassis number, though I did check it at the time to ID the chassis.  This was in 1996, and I don't think I have any records going back that far.  I do have some photos of the chassis but nothing that shows the number tag, so that's probably as far as we can get.   The car does have some unique features which I would know if I saw it again, so will just have to look out for it.

ah 1996, then yeah there is a good chance it will be on the DVLA in some form or another  

the DVLC computerisation started in October 1974, and the today the main computer records go back to about 1980-1982 (pretty much every vehicle Gxx-N and newer will have been on the V5 scheme from new, as thats when the DVLC took over vehicle registration from local offices and the V5 scheme was introduced, and all registration series's  reset to Gxx-N)

the cut off point for easily moving  a buff logbook vehicle to the V5 scheme was 1983 (after which they stopped making it so easy as too many people where falsifying records to claim valuable registration marks)

once on the DVLA system a vehicle never really truly drops off it, only main exception to this is at some point in the past (I sadly dont know when) the DVLA archived off a lot of records Pre 1982, including whole vehicle records where there had been no activity since before 1982 or there abouts

although these whole vehicle records do still exist but simply in archived form so they dont show up on any internet facing checker of any kind (but if you V62 for such a vehicle the DVLA will unarchive them see also @egg now @BlankFrank's Invacar Mk12)

but this archiving is why for example you never see any vehicles "untaxed since 1976" or something such

the oldest tax due date I know about is REV453R, which has been untaxed since November 1977 

but as you can see had a V5 issued in 1983 (it also had a keeper change about then) so was kept alive and hence why it never got archived off as its record was active post 1982 (I suspect this Invacar Model 70 was part of the DHSS Reserve fleet from new and never actually turned a wheel in service)

although there are the odd rare exception to this like this AC Acedes Mk15 (Model 67) EPH399J who's last record update from what i can tell was a scrapped marker in 1979 but it never got archived off the system when the DVLC/DVLA did that pre 1982 "purge" (im guessing it was a case of "archive off the records which have been inactive since such and such date, Until we have enough free space" so once they got enough free space then they would have stopped archiving off old records which I assume how this ones record stayed on the main computer system)

[Mr Pastry]

10 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

ah 1996, then yeah there is a good chance it will be on the DVLA in some form or another

Yes the fact that the number was actually transferred suggests that a new one (age related?) would have been issued, so the car may still be around.  

[LightBulbFun]

17 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

Yes the fact that the number was actually transferred suggests that a new one (age related?) would have been issued, so the car may still be around.

 after a bit of digging I found a partial chassis number, then did a bit of DVLA basing with other Austin 7 registration numbers to figure out what its full chassis number  is (ie the leading letters) and then bam!  

[loserone]

Changed hands this month!

[Mr Pastry]

That is awesome!  I do remember it as being November. 1936.  I may even have seen the logbook now I think about it.  Last V5C issued this month, so signs of life of some kind.  Interesting though that the number wasn't transferred until 1999.   Anyway there's a chance of keeping tabs on it now.   

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, LightBulbFun said:

 after a bit of digging I found a partial chassis number, then did a bit of DVLA basing with other Austin 7 registration numbers to figure out what its full chassis number  is (ie the leading letters) and then bam!  

Oh here we go here is the full keeper change record  @Mr Pastry

(worth noting that keeper change counts do not always transfer over from the buff logbook, so whoever it is that moved this vehicle from its buff logbook to the V5 scheme will probably be the first recorded keeper on the DVLA's records, but my tool always assigns the date of first registration to the first keeper)

[LightBulbFun]

3 minutes ago, loserone said:

Changed hands this month!

not sure, a V5c being issued is not always a keeper change, I would think if it was a keeper change even tho quite recent I think it would have shown up on my tool by now

but a recent V5c issued is a sign of some kind of activity and thats always a good sign usually  

8 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

That is awesome!  I do remember it as being November. 1936.  I may even have seen the logbook now I think about it.  Last V5C issued this month, so signs of life of some kind.  Interesting though that the number wasn't transferred until 1999.   Anyway there's a chance of keeping tabs on it now.   

Yeah I do somewhat enjoy a good challenge like this  and I thought it was the least I could do with regards to the very interesting new info you have provided us with to research in regards to the Barret midget's story  

[Mr Pastry]

It seems to me that your talents are completely wasted on old cars.  

[loserone]

7 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

It seems to me that your talents are completely wasted on old cars.  

I'm not sure which employer is missing out, but they are SERIOUSLY missing out.

[Mr Pastry]

2 minutes ago, loserone said:

I'm not sure which employer is missing out, but they are SERIOUSLY missing out.

GCHQ?

[barrett]

10 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

This is very interesting! looks like the company was S.E. Hamblin Ltd and indeed they made fibreglass body shells (clearly for W&F barrett Ltd...) 

https://www.minimarcos.org.uk/gallery/hamblin/index.html

(theres a war of the worlds/attack of the 4 legged invalid cars joke in there somewhere LOL)

This is all really interesting stuff! I didn't know Hamblin went on to produce bodies for other companies. I love those colour photos! How long were Barretts made? Strange to see them side by side with Mini Marcoses.

[LightBulbFun]

34 minutes ago, barrett said:

This is all really interesting stuff! I didn't know Hamblin went on to produce bodies for other companies. I love those colour photos! How long were Barretts made? Strange to see them side by side with Mini Marcoses.

indeed it is very interesting! it never even occurred to me that an invalid carriage company could have its bodies made by them by an external company like a traditional chassis and coach builder relationship, pretty sure everyone else produced their bodies in house...

the last Barrett midgets where made in 1968 AFAIK (with the formation of the DHSS they decided that their users could be catered to with the Tippen Delta and ended Barretts contracts)

I know of 1 F Reg survivor MHU163F which is still in its interesting original metallic green  (I believe 864THW's green is a later repaint)

however sadly I dont know any that still show up on the DVLA today

I think 864THW is Barrett Midget Mk5 and MHU163F is a Barrett Midget Mk7 but research is still on going

(reminds I still need to check the parts manual, although sadly there are no pages on the Barrett Midget I think the "Model 60" book mark was still there and im curious what mark is listed in it cc @Zelandeth ) 

[barrett]

Well in the early days of GRP technology there were very few companies who had the skill to mass-produce car bodies, and there were a handful of larger industrial concerns who did. For example Lotus didn't produce its own bodies for many years, they were outsourced, as were things like the Peerless GT.

I'd actually be surprised if the smaller IC makers had these facilities- a company like Harper for example, did they build the shells in house?

[LightBulbFun]

32 minutes ago, barrett said:

Well in the early days of GRP technology there were very few companies who had the skill to mass-produce car bodies, and there were a handful of larger industrial concerns who did. For example Lotus didn't produce its own bodies for many years, they were outsourced, as were things like the Peerless GT.

I'd actually be surprised if the smaller IC makers had these facilities- a company like Harper for example, did they build the shells in house?

hmm good question id like to say Harper did, because the first thing they did when they bought out Stanley Engineering Co was introduce the all new fibreglass Harper Mk1 (then the Mk4 Mk6 and finally Mk7) and there was the Harper Scootomobile as well but its a good question

for comparisons sake heres a list of other fibreglass invalid vehicle manufacturers and  when their first fibreglass vehicle was introduced/made  

after harper was Frank Tippen & Sons who came out with the full bodied fibreglass Tippen Delta in 1955

then the Barrett Minor in 1956 (did S.E. Hamblin also make Minor body shells?)

then the the Invacar Mk12 in 1960

and finally ironically enough for the most technically advanced company? AC only introduced its first fibreglass carriage the AC Acedes Mk14 in 1967

I know for sure Invacar and AC made their own bodies and im pretty sure Harper and Tippen did too but who knows 

[barrett]

8 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

I know for sure Invacar and AC made their own bodies and im pretty sure Harper and Tippen did too but who knows 

Well I hope Stuart does because this is the sort of stuff I want to learn from the book!

I suppose if Harper had employed Spike Rhiando as a GRP consultant it's possible they were tooling up for GRP production in-house.

If Martyn Jones who took those Hamblin photographs is who I think it is, I'll email him tomorrow and ask him about the Barrett connection. 

[LightBulbFun]

5 hours ago, barrett said:

Well I hope Stuart does because this is the sort of stuff I want to learn from the book!

I suppose if Harper had employed Spike Rhiando as a GRP consultant it's possible they were tooling up for GRP production in-house.

If Martyn Jones who took those Hamblin photographs is who I think it is, I'll email him tomorrow and ask him about the Barrett connection. 

Yeah! I still wonder about the Date...

http://da7c.co.uk/History Section/HAMBLIN CARS.html

found this interesting article which is assume where @Mr Pastry got the picture he posted from, it says in 1957 they had an aluminium body but then switched to a Fibreglass one but it does not say when they did so, so perhaps the 1959 Date I have for the introduction of the Barret Midget is still correct

they certially did introduce something in 1959 thats for sure

Quote

At the time of the article S. E. Hamblin were 4 months in to a Ministry of Health contract to produce 100 invalid carriage bodies which were leaving the premises at 5 per week already trimmed and with windscreen fitted. The carriages being finished in a Bristol.

Bristol confirms that it is indeed W&F Barrett if there was any doubt about that, (although "in a Bristol" gave me a mental picture of a bus full of Barrett Midgets, like some really autoshite version of the Italian Job LOL)

[Mr Pastry]

I think the black and white Hamblin photo must be from 1958.  The 1957 alloy body was a totally different full-width style.

[Mrs6C]

Thinking about it, I'm surprised that Lawrie Bond didn't come up with a three wheeled invalid car design to be made under the 'Bond' brand. The Bond three wheelers were common and popular in the 1950s and 1960s and there was a wealth of fabrication capability available in Preston. Lawrie designed and made pretty much everything else that was possible to do, to bring in some money. Invalid cars would have been a natural addition to the range.

I must look into this...

[LightBulbFun]

30 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

Thinking about it, I'm surprised that Lawrie Bond didn't come up with a three wheeled invalid car design to be made under the 'Bond' brand. The Bond three wheelers were common and popular in the 1950s and 1960s and there was a wealth of fabrication capability available in Preston. Lawrie designed and made pretty much everything else that was possible to do, to bring in some money. Invalid cars would have been a natural addition to the range.

I must look into this...

Yeah thats something I have wondered about as well  (thought I even spoke with stuart about it in the past, but checking the message logs I cant find anything although im almost positive I did talk/ask about it at one point!)

3 hours ago, Mr Pastry said:

I think the black and white Hamblin photo must be from 1958.  The 1957 alloy body was a totally different full-width style.

ah interesting  

I wonder who made Barrett Minor body shells for W&F Barret when they introduced the Minor in 1956....

(since thats before hamblin did fibreglass right?)

[plasticvandan]

Bonds were converted to hand controls and I believe an early mk A or B survives with the hand controls still present.

Laurie left the Minicar project soon after the MKA and though retained as a consultant didn't have too much input afterwards and Sharps were doing rather well selling them to the general public

[plasticvandan]

30 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

Yeah thats something I have wondered about as well  (thought I even spoke with stuart about it in the past, but checking the message logs I cant find anything although im almost positive I did talk/ask about it at one point!)

ah interesting  

I wonder who made Barrett Minor body shells for W&F Barret when they introduced the Minor in 1956....

(since thats before hamblin did fibreglass right?)

Hamblin were coach builders so most likely built them as well.

[LightBulbFun]

40 minutes ago, plasticvandan said:

Bonds were converted to hand controls and I believe an early mk A or B survives with the hand controls still present.

oh thats neat, are there any pictures?  

there was at least 1 Vernon industries Gordon that was converted to hand controls as well 

 

[Mr Pastry]

9 minutes ago, plasticvandan said:

Hamblin were coach builders so most likely built them as well.

Yes I think Hamblin would have known all about fibreglass before 1958.  The ally A7 body I think didn't sell well because it was too complex and upmarket for the mostly skint special builders of the time, and the fibreglass Cadet was a cheap and simple alternative.

[egg]

1 hour ago, Mrs6C said:

Thinking about it, I'm surprised that Lawrie Bond didn't come up with a three wheeled invalid car design to be made under the 'Bond' brand.

I think I've mentioned before that in my mind the Mk1 Scootacar with it's 197 villiers (naturally) may have been quite suitable to adapt, but the doors would have needed some work.

[LightBulbFun]

13 minutes ago, egg said:

I think I've mentioned before that in my mind the Mk1 Scootacar with it's 197 villiers (naturally) may have been quite suitable to adapt, but the doors would have needed some work.

I think a few where converted to hand controls in period  

certainly there is one that part took in this rally  (which is from Jan 1961 at the earliest not 1959 as the video title says ) 

at 6:29 in  

[adw1977]

On 07/09/2020 at 12:34, LightBulbFun said:

as a side note to all this DVLA bashing I notice that the DVLA are getting to the end of the BFxxxx registration series which is the series they issue as age related plates to vehicles from before 1931

currently last one issued at time of posting is BF9306, and im curious what they will do when they run out!

the only 2 digit registration not issued in England AFAIK is the (funnily enough) Essex marker, WC, (it was only ever issued BWC-YWC. AWC, UWC and WC where never issued I guess because water closet, BF was never issued at the time because it stood for bloody fool)

I see they are now up to BF9375 (a 1930 Aston Martin) so that's 70 cars in 50 days.  At that rate (which may or may not be typical) the BF series will run out around the end of next year.

[LightBulbFun]

11 minutes ago, adw1977 said:

I see they are now up to BF9375 (a 1930 Aston Martin) so that's 70 cars in 50 days.  At that rate (which may or may not be typical) the BF series will run out around the end of next year.

Yeah I did some DVLA bashing a little while ago and it looks like for whatever reason BF  has only been issued from BF4001+ onwards

so when they run out they could issue BF1001-BF3999, although I wonder why they have not already (its not like they where issued in period)

and I still wonder what will happen when they do run out of all BF marks entirely, what will the next series be, will we finally see WCxxxx get issued?  

either way eventually we will run out of 2 letter 4 number marks and I wonder what will happen then!

[adw1977]

Well if they use BF1001-3999 it will be about 7 years before the series runs out, based on recent use.  Then the WC series could be used for another 20 years!

[Richard_FM]

DF was another code which was withdrawn then brought back into use years later.

Apparently people didn't like being labelled a Damn Fool or a Bloody Fool!  DD was totally skipped over initially, maybe it stood for Damn Dodgy?!

I wonder if there are any never issued registrations in this sequence.

Have all the Scottish 2 letter combinations been used up?

There are plenty of unissued 1234A & 1234AB sequences still available unless they have all been snapped up as personalised plates.

[LightBulbFun]

5 hours ago, Richard_FM said:

DF was another code which was withdrawn then brought back into use years later.

Apparently people didn't like being labelled a Damn Fool or a Bloody Fool!  DD was totally skipped over initially, maybe it stood for Damn Dodgy?!

I wonder if there are any never issued registrations in this sequence.

Have all the Scottish 2 letter combinations been used up?

There are plenty of unissued 1234A & 1234AB sequences still available unless they have all been snapped up as personalised plates.

DD was issued from September 1912 to June 1926 so it looks like that series was used up in period

the scottish one is one I wonder about as well but its hard to say, there are a number of them that run all the way to December 1964 when on the 1st of January 1965 suffix plates where made mandatory

but I have no way of knowing how many went un-issued

an example from the quote bellow is the fittingly ASxxxx series I know was issued all the way to the end of suffix-less issue but has not been used as an age related series so maybe we might see it crop up in the future? but I dont know how many un-issued VRMs there are in that series and from what I have seen the DVLA like to use the Scottish ones up first before moving to non Scottish ones so I would have thought it would have been used before BFxxxx if there was anything they could use before it, but the DVLA have changed their policy a few times on this

On 07/09/2020 at 17:16, LightBulbFun said:

I THINK all those have already been used up AFAIK LOL

 EL1000-1500, DS6574+, SL9737+ BS8000+ SV4001+ and BF are all the pre 1931 age related marks  I know of issued or currently being issued

perhaps there are some more small scottish areas that never finished issuing all their original allocation of 2 letter 4 number plates? 

I know for example ASxxxx was issued right to December 1964, but I dont know if they happened to use all of them up or not

(they never issued any AAAxxx plates jumping to AAS-C when in 1965 the Ministry forced everyone onto suffix plates so perhaps after BFxxxx runs out we will see some ASxxxx plates issued? LOL)

on the unissued 4 number 1/2 letter registration series's well those are reverse registration marks which where not issued until 1953, starting with 1000E so would not be a suitable age related plate for something pre 1931

it is curious how the DVLA have not issued any of the un-used 4 number 1/2 letter registration series's as age related plates for vehicles from 1953-1962, it would be nice that if a vehicle that was wearing a 4 number 2 letter reverse plate is robbed of its plate that the DVLA issue an appropriate  4 number 2 letter age related mark for it

thankfully at least today the DVLA will appropriately only issue 3 number 3 letter age related plates to 1953+ vehicles,

for a while in the past they issued them to pre 1953 vehicles and it looked all sorts of wrong LOL like 627UXR on the Austin 7 that was(is?) for sale here (and they also issued 3 letter 3 number plates to post 1953 vehicles which while not wrong in any way, was unnecessarily using up marks they did not have to use)

but as above today 1931-1952 vehicles are appropriately issued 3 letter 3 number registrations only

(I do wonder if today if you say have 627UXR the Austin 7 if you could request a proper age related plate for it or not, like you can with the A suffix plates issued to pre 1963 vehicles)

and for those curious at the time of writing the current 1931-1952 age related plate series is NXSxxx with the latest to be issued NXS362, and the latest 1953-1962 age related series is xxxXVL with the latest to be issued 982XVL

 

(will be interesting to see if they then issue xxxYVL next or just jump, randomly?, to one of the many unissued reverse registration series's there are, I noticed for the 1931-1952 age related series's  they will issue them in alphabetical order like before NXSxxx was MXSxxx, but I notice for reverse plates 1953-1962, they dont do this, like it does not look like they issued xxxWVL before xxxXVL was issued)